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Posted: 2/9/2006 6:12:25 AM EDT
Have you guys seen the website?

Many updates! .458 SOCOMs, .308 rifles, AR pistols....308 rifles!!!

I had no idea that they were getting ready to release .308 rifles. They sure kept the lid on that little piece of info well.

Anywho, I just ordered my a .458 SOCOM upper.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:15:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:17:18 AM EDT
Very nice. I've been thinking of buying a .308 AR.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:21:12 AM EDT
You ain't the first to have pointed this out this week.

Mike
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:22:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Have you guys seen the website?

Many updates! .458 SOCOMs, .308 rifles, AR pistols....308 rifles!!!

I had no idea that they were getting ready to release .308 rifles. They sure kept the lid on that little piece of info well.

Anywho, I just ordered my a .458 SOCOM upper.




Where does one buy .458 ammo at?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:24:16 AM EDT
FAL mags, eh? Didn't Bushmaster try this and fail in the process?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:24:36 AM EDT
I'm a Rock River fan.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:25:34 AM EDT
Kinda makes you wonder if they didn't buy the plans for those .308 rifles from Bushmaster...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:25:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
You ain't the first to have pointed this out this week.

Mike



The changes to their website were made today to correspond with the opening of the SHOT show. This is the first time that the .458 SOCOMs, AR pistols or .308 rifles have been available on their website. I was just looking at it yesterday.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:26:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
FAL mags, eh? Didn't Bushmaster try this and fail in the process?



Yep.

Reliability problems plagued the BAR-10. It was said by many gun nuts in the beginning that the FAL mags weren't going to work in an AR platform.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:27:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tyman:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Have you guys seen the website?

Many updates! .458 SOCOMs, .308 rifles, AR pistols....308 rifles!!!

I had no idea that they were getting ready to release .308 rifles. They sure kept the lid on that little piece of info well.

Anywho, I just ordered my a .458 SOCOM upper.




Where does one buy .458 ammo at?



Right now...Corbon. And they know it too! $47.15 for a box of 20 300 gr JHPs. I won't even tell you what the 400 and 600 gr. cost.



I hear that this may be changing though.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:30:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By tyman:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Have you guys seen the website?

Many updates! .458 SOCOMs, .308 rifles, AR pistols....308 rifles!!!

I had no idea that they were getting ready to release .308 rifles. They sure kept the lid on that little piece of info well.

Anywho, I just ordered my a .458 SOCOM upper.




Where does one buy .458 ammo at?



Right now...Corbon. And they know it too! $47.15 for a box of 20 300 gr JHPs. I won't even tell you what the 400 and 600 gr. cost.



I hear that this may be changing though.



Yeah, it looks like .308 is good enough.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:31:00 AM EDT
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.

Bushy killed the BAR by overpricing the hell out of it.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:34:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Kinda makes you wonder if they didn't buy the plans for those .308 rifles from Bushmaster...



IIRC RRA sold or licensed the plans to Bushmaster after they couldn't get them to work, and then took them back when Bushmaster gave up due to lack of sales.

That was the impression I got from reading around this site.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:35:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
I'm a Rock River fan.



Me too!
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:36:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Kinda makes you wonder if they didn't buy the plans for those .308 rifles from Bushmaster...



IIRC RRA sold or licensed the plans to Bushmaster after they couldn't get them to work, and then took them back when Bushmaster gave up due to lack of sales.

That was the impression I got from reading around this site.



That would make sense, the rifles look identical.

Maybe RRA will do better with them since they didn't slap a $1500 price tag on the rifles.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:43:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.

Bushy killed the BAR by overpricing the hell out of it.


Agreed. That's too bad, because I was very interesting in concept of what Bushy was selling...but not at their asking price, which bordered on insane.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:59:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.

Bushy killed the BAR by overpricing the hell out of it.


Agreed. That's too bad, because I was very interesting in concept of what Bushy was selling...but not at their asking price, which bordered on insane.



Well you have your chance now, get an RRA and it looks like you'll have the same rifle for less.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:07:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 7:08:46 AM EDT by TimJ]
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:19:23 AM EDT
I thought the BAR10s didn't sell well because they kept breaking.

RRA must have figured out the problems.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:24:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TimJ:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.







"Dear Santa,....."

Well, maybe I'll sell the FN PARA parts and get one of those.....maybe I'll wait for the carbine.....decisions, decisions......



.308 carbine is already available from RRA.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:28:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
FAL mags, eh? Didn't Bushmaster try this and fail in the process?



If I understand correctly, RRA holds a patent on a bolt modification that will allow the FAL mags to work with the action.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:29:59 AM EDT
cool
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:30:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
FAL mags, eh? Didn't Bushmaster try this and fail in the process?



pretty sure, I hope this one doesn't have the same problem.
Cause I want one
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:39:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By TimJ:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.







"Dear Santa,....."

Well, maybe I'll sell the FN PARA parts and get one of those.....maybe I'll wait for the carbine.....decisions, decisions......



.308 carbine is already available from RRA.




Huh? Their site says "Anticipated Availability Summer 2006"...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:39:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 7:51:15 AM EDT by _DR]
More broken bolts unless they radically changed the design. I don't see how that is possible, without deleting a locking lug on the barrel extension. I'm no engineer, but I still say:

If you want to use FAL or L1A1 mags, get a FAL or L1A1.


Adapting an AR10 type action to FAL/L1A1 magazines has a long history of failure.
The AR15/AR10 and FAL/L1A1 action are completely different, and they feed differently.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:49:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tyman:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Have you guys seen the website?

Many updates! .458 SOCOMs, .308 rifles, AR pistols....308 rifles!!!

I had no idea that they were getting ready to release .308 rifles. They sure kept the lid on that little piece of info well.

Anywho, I just ordered my a .458 SOCOM upper.




Where does one buy .458 ammo at?

A brothel, cause everytime you buy it, your handing over a ton of money and only get fucked to show for it.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:51:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By TimJ:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.







"Dear Santa,....."

Well, maybe I'll sell the FN PARA parts and get one of those.....maybe I'll wait for the carbine.....decisions, decisions......



.308 carbine is already available from RRA.




Huh? Their site says "Anticipated Availability Summer 2006"...



My bad...I just glanced at the .308 stuff before ordering my .458 SOCOM upper.

I'm not into pussy calibers.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:01:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By TimJ:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.







"Dear Santa,....."

Well, maybe I'll sell the FN PARA parts and get one of those.....maybe I'll wait for the carbine.....decisions, decisions......



.308 carbine is already available from RRA.




Huh? Their site says "Anticipated Availability Summer 2006"...



My bad...I just glanced at the .308 stuff before ordering my .458 SOCOM upper.

I'm not into pussy calibers.



So where did you find the .50 BMG RRA uppers? Because .45 << .50
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:15:06 AM EDT
I understand the drive to try to develop a FAL compatible AR-10 action in light of the former prohibition on civilian sale of AR-10 type mags, but now that this prohibition is over, why not build around a proven mag type and order a shitload of mags from a factory to ensure the supply once the democrats get back into office? All it is is a slight design mod to M14 type mags so I'm sure they could set up a group production run with Armalite, Rock River, Springfield inc., Fulton and whoever else wants them. Get enough volume and the damned things won't cost more than a few bucks to have made and they can sell them for 20.00 until a new mag ban drops into place at which point they'll double the price and make a killing. Seems stupid not to overproduce now against a possible future ban.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:15:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not into pussy calibers.



Is that a Five-Seven in your avatar?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:19:46 AM EDT
DPMS 308 ARs are less than 1K. I have one and it’s great - everyone seems to think DPMS is low quality, but I have never met someone unhappy with their .308 line.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:37:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'm not into pussy calibers.



Is that a Five-Seven in your avatar?



What avatar?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 9:48:24 AM EDT
<-------- Little image = avatar
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:03:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
<-------- Little image = avatar



What about it?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:07:45 AM EDT
I wonder if they'll sell parts/recievers/ etc.

GR
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:10:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
<-------- Little image = avatar



What about it?



I love the dancing, Steve!
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:28:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
<-------- Little image = avatar



What about it?



Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:34:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
FAL mags, eh? Didn't Bushmaster try this and fail in the process?


If I understand correctly, RRA holds a patent on a bolt modification that will allow the FAL mags to work with the action.


If this is true, they ought to get into cancer research as well.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:42:40 AM EDT
Rock River designs the FAL mag fed AR design.
They don't pursue it for one reason or another.
Bushmaster catches wind of the design, and they work with RRA to produce them.
Bushmaster gets the heat treating process wrong, and bolt breakage ensues.
Bushmaster's high prices drive sales into the ground.
Bushmaster gives up on the design.
Rock River is left with the design, and many parts left in a cache that Bushmaster won't be needing.
Rock River does some tinkering, and the decide they can restart production after fixing the bolt issue.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:46:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.

Bushy killed the BAR by overpricing the hell out of it.



It is not the BAR. A few early models were called that, but they had to change it, as I suspect RRA will have to do.

The price did not kill the Bushy, although it helped. The lack of chrome lining and bolts breaking due to the mods for the FAL mags killed it.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:47:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I thought the BAR10s didn't sell well because they kept breaking.

RRA must have figured out the problems.



I wouldn't bet on it.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:49:57 AM EDT
If they work with FAL mags reliabily it will be my next build

....or that damn SBR 9mm ar!
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:52:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
At least RRA is smart enough that they priced the .308 in the $1000 to $1150 range which should put street price around $850 - $900.

Bushy killed the BAR by overpricing the hell out of it.



It is not the BAR. A few early models were called that, but they had to change it, as I suspect RRA will have to do.

The price did not kill the Bushy, although it helped. The lack of chrome lining and bolts breaking due to the mods for the FAL mags killed it.


Actually, the rumor of bolt breakage from FAL mags is false. People figured this was true due to the deleted lug of the early prototypes. The production models in fact did not have the deleted lug. Later on there was an inside rumor that Bushmaster goofed up the heat treating process on a large order that caused them some set backs in the warranty department. The bolt's typically broke at the tail of the bolt, and not near the lugs where the rumors said they should have.

Bushmaster always called it the BAR10, and Rock River will call it the LAR10 to coincide with their LAR15 series.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:56:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 11:12:24 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I thought the BAR10s didn't sell well because they kept breaking.

RRA must have figured out the problems.



I wouldn't bet on it.



+1

here is a pic of Idahodirt's (AR15.COM) BAR10 bolt w/broken tailpiece.
I do not believe the bolt failures were limited to the tailpiece, I have seen an image of one with fractured locking lugs, will see if I can dig it up.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:01:03 AM EDT
If it works, I'm buying a carbine and a full size.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:20:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 11:22:54 AM EDT by Ranxerox911]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
...The price did not kill the Bushy, although it helped. The lack of chrome lining and bolts breaking due to the mods for the FAL mags killed it.



Does anybody have any supporting evidence that using the FAL mags in BM .308 caused problems with the bolts breaking, or is it just speculation that has run wild?

Where on the bolt does it break, anyone have a picture? ETA: Nevermind; Thx _DR.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:23:58 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:29:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 11:36:06 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Ranxerox911:

Does anybody have any supporting evidence that using the FAL mags in BM .308 caused problems with the bolts breaking, or is it just speculation that has run wild?




Troy generally knows what he is talking about:


Originally Posted By Troy:
The bolt breakage on the .308 AR is a DESIGN problem, not a materials, manufacturing, or QC problem. In order to use narrow, center-feeding FAL mags, Bushmaster deleted the 6-o'clock locking lug in the barrel extension. This means that there are unsupported lugs at 3-o'clock (extractor) and 6-o'clock, and that causes the bolt to be over-stressed and break.

-Troy




Back in 1998, when Hesse announced that they were going to make a .308 AR using FAL mags, I was warning people here that either it wouldn't feed around the 6-o'clock bolt lug, or Hesse would delete the lug and the bolts would break.

Both Hesse and later ASA ended up making small runs of .308 ARs, leaving the 6-o'clock lug. Both had the predicted feed problems due to the FAL mag, which is designed to feed to the center (the FAL has a rear-tilt-locking bolt design with no barrel extension or locking lugs).

When Bushmaster announced their FAL mag .308, my first question was "How are you going to get the ammo to feed around the 6-o'clock lug on the barrel extension?" When they said that they had deleted the lug, I told them they would have problems with the bolt lugs breaking. Well, here we are...

-Troy




Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:30:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
I thought the BAR10s didn't sell well because they kept breaking.

RRA must have figured out the problems.



I wouldn't bet on it.



+1

here is a pic of Idahodirt's (AR15.COM) BAR10 bolt w/broken tailpiece.
I do not believe the bolt failures were limited to the tailpiece, I have seen an image of one with fractured locking lugs, will see if I can dig it up.

i1.tinypic.com/nfoh07.jpg



Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't that gun still operate with the broken tailpiece?

The firing pin should prevent the tailpiece from falling off and interfering with the action, and even if broken it should still allow the firing pin to trave far enough forward to hit the primer while still preventing the firing pin from traveling too far forward and causing a slam fire.

I'm not suggesting that it's accecptable, but it should still run right?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 11:32:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 11:42:34 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
Actually, the rumor of bolt breakage from FAL mags is false. People figured this was true due to the deleted lug of the early prototypes. The production models in fact did not have the deleted lug.



Then how would it feed reliably? The FAL has no barrel extension lugs (uses locking shoulder) and feeds into the chamber from the center. Their mags are designed for this type of feeding.

I would like to see this new design they have. I'm no engineer and I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would really like to see this.
I have an Inch FAL variant, it is a completely different animal in how it feeds and locks the bolt into battery.
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