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Posted: 1/21/2008 3:16:07 AM EST
While I have considered the preservation of the constitutional power of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only are essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.


—Robert. E. Lee [1866]

cmmg
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:17:16 AM EST
[#1]
IBTSS
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:17:35 AM EST
[#2]
Here we go.

Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:19:35 AM EST
[#3]
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:20:12 AM EST
[#4]
Makes sense to me.
(IBTNSS) in before the north south shitstorm)
ETA: I see MM beat me to it.
Hessian-1
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:20:15 AM EST
[#5]

If to this we add, that an army will afford a decent support, and agreeable employment to the young men of many families, who are too indolent to follow occupations that will require care and industry, and too poor to live without doing any business, we can have little reason to doubt but that we shall have a large standing army as soon as this government can find money to pay them, and perhaps sooner.


Antifederalist
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:26:03 AM EST
[#6]

Quoted:
While I have considered the preservation of the constitutional power of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only are essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.


—Robert. E. Lee [1866]



Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:27:29 AM EST
[#7]

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:29:15 AM EST
[#8]

Quoted:
While I have considered the preservation of the constitutional power of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only are essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.


—Robert. E. Lee [1866]



Robert E. Lee was right. That's exactly what we have today.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:29:30 AM EST
[#9]
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:29:58 AM EST
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


At least he didn't declare war on his own nation.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:31:01 AM EST
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


Better than, you know, treason.

Anyway, the hearts and minds came later.

The more pressing matter was saving America.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:31:51 AM EST
[#12]

Quoted:
Happy Martin Luther King / Robert E. Lee Day!




kinda like a happy yes/no day......

Is the USPS open today?
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:34:48 AM EST
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


At least he didn't declare war on his own nation.


I highly recommend reading "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History" by Thomas Woods, if you haven't already. It's a good read.

Pres. Abe Lincoln was a tyrant, IMHO.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:37:12 AM EST
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


At least he didn't declare war on his own nation.


+999,999,999
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:41:42 AM EST
[#15]

Quoted:

I highly recommend reading "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History" by Thomas Woods, if you haven't already. It's a good read.
.


Sounds interesting, Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:49:45 AM EST
[#16]

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.


If Robert E. Lee had the morals of Sherman the CSA would have won the war.

The irony is that had Linclon the morals of Lee, there would have been no war and over 600,000 Americans owuld not have died!
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:54:28 AM EST
[#17]

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.


Lee forbid his men to harrass civilians.

Sherman slaughtered anybody in his path.

How is that better?
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 3:57:14 AM EST
[#18]

Quoted:

At least he didn't declare war on his own nation.


Actually, before the war one's loyalty was to their home state.  That's why Lee turned down command of the federal army when Lincoln offered it to him.

Before the war the FedGov wasn't this monolithic central power we have today.  The states were more independent political entities, and the 10th Amendment actually meant something.

Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:02:21 AM EST
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.


Lee forbid his men to harrass civilians.

Sherman slaughtered anybody in his path.

How is that better?


Well, he won the war to save America, for starters.

We firebombed the hell out of Dresden and vaporized two cities full of Japanese civilians.

Sometimes there are more important considerations.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:02:58 AM EST
[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.


Lee forbid his men to harrass civilians.

Sherman slaughtered anybody in his path.

How is that better?

Lies, and I think you know it too.

Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:05:13 AM EST
[#21]
Puts on GREY kepi gets popcorn
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:05:25 AM EST
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


At least he didn't declare war on his own nation.


+999,999,999


As a disclaimer I must admit I'm no expert on this subject. But there never was a declaration of war. The United States, Pres. Lincoln in particular, viewed the Civil War as an insurrection.

The South merely declared secession from the Union. They viewed the ratification of the Constitution to be a voluntary pact between States. They felt they could secede as secession was not mentioned in the Constitution and due to the 10th Amendment, the Southern States felt that it was their right to secede.

The Southerners mostly fought for the right of self-government. Most Southerners, contrary to popular belief, did not own slaves (that does not mean they didn't believe in negro inferiority, &c).

Here's a quote:


Q1.2:  Was there a declaration of war or something?

  1.  The United States never declared war.  This was in keeping with its
position that the rebel states did not form a new nation, rather they were
states in which a rebellion was taking place.  Abraham Lincoln issued a
Proclamation that an insurrection existed in the states of SC, GA, FL, AL,
MS, LA, and TX on 15 Apr 1861 (Messages & Papers of the Presidents, vol. V,
p3214).  He also proclaimed a blockade of Southern harbors on 19 Apr
1861, and the date of this proclamation was taken by the Supreme Court in
several cases to be the official beginning of the insurrection.
  2.  The Confederate States passed "An Act recognizing the existence of
war between the United States and the Confederate States" on 6 May 1861.
This act exempted MD, NC, TN, KY, AR, MO, DE, and the territories of AZ
and NM, and the Indian Territory south of KS.

Sources: McPherson, Battle Cry of Freedom; Official Records, Ser. IV,
Vol. 1


Notice that after the Southern States seceded, Pres. Lincoln immediately blockaded all of the South's ports. Previous to the war, there existed an economic hegemony of the North over the South mainly enforced through Federal protective tariffs.

The South rebelled because they could not get the protective tariffs lifted to reduce the prices of goods that were solely being supplied by the North at the time. The cause of this war, like most wars before and after, was mainly economic.

Think about blockades of ports, aka economic sanctions or whatever the popular euphemism these days is. This requires force. Ergo, to many historians, the Union was the agressor.

Technically, many people believe that "The Civil War" is a misnomer. Hence you'll often hear "The War of Northern Agression" or "The War Between the States."

Like I said, I'm no expert. But public education doesn't tell you the whole truth, there's more to history than a simple "good vs. evil" type of cartoonish plot. And this is coming from one who was formerly indoctrinated.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:31:34 AM EST
[#23]
During World War Two should America have rounded up all those of German decent like General Eisenhower? Of course not. Of course if they all had loyalty like Lee we would of had a problem. All this stuff trying to portray Lincoln as bad is beside the point. When Lee played lets switch allegiance Lincoln's only crime had been getting elected.  
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:35:42 AM EST
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


Better than, you know, treason.

Anyway, the hearts and minds came later.

The more pressing matter was saving America.


it wouldn't been treason if the south won! ya know like our forefathers and the American revolution.

here we go arm chair historians fighting the civil war. at least those guys were men of honor,except Sherman who was a crazy murdering crazy bastard flame on
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:39:41 AM EST
[#25]

Quoted:
All this stuff trying to portray Lincoln as bad is beside the point. When Lee played lets switch allegiance Lincoln's only crime had been getting elected.  


History is written by the victors. It's best to remember that when looking at the past.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:42:25 AM EST
[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.
Yeah ... he went through the south burning everything in his path.  A great way to win a war, but not the best way to win the hearts and minds.  


Better than, you know, treason.

Anyway, the hearts and minds came later.

The more pressing matter was saving America.


it wouldn't been treason if the south won! ya know like our forefathers and the American revolution.


+1.

The Confederates were following in our Founders' footsteps.  Their actions could be supported by the principles in the Declaration of Independence and the writings of scoundrels such as Thomas Jefferson.

Lincoln was the 19th century's King George.  People getting uppity, wanting to go their own way?  Time for a smackdown!  Yep, those are the principles our country was founded on, right?
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:44:30 AM EST
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.


Lee forbid his men to harrass civilians.

Sherman slaughtered anybody in his path.

How is that better?

Lies, and I think you know it too.



No.  I don't know about other Confederate commanders, but when Lee invaded the north, he issued orders to not molest the civilian population.

Are you posting lies, or are you just mistaken?

Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:44:44 AM EST
[#28]
Think of it when you visit Arlington National Cemetary; it was once Robert E. Lee's family home.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:46:41 AM EST
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All this stuff trying to portray Lincoln as bad is beside the point. When Lee played lets switch allegiance Lincoln's only crime had been getting elected.  


History is written by the victors. It's best to remember that when looking at the past.

If you didn't notice there was no law banning pro-Lee books. The "Gone with the Wind" movie was rather pro-southern. Plenty of books, movies, etc. written on the side of the losers, the confederacy. On the otherside if the confederacy had won well they didn't believe in freedom of speech. Start having freedom of speech and people start talking about banning slavery. Rich slave holders can't have that. See any non-slave states join the confederacy?
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:51:03 AM EST
[#30]
I recommend that folks should do some study into Lee's character before slandering him with their opinions.

He was a great man.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:53:23 AM EST
[#31]

Quoted:
I recommend that folks should do some study into Lee's character before slandering him with their opinions.

He was a great man.

Lincoln agreed with that sentiment. As do I.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:57:17 AM EST
[#32]

Quoted:
I recommend that folks should do some study into Lee's character before slandering him with their opinions.

He was a great man.


Nah, never let the facts get in the way of your opinion.

Robert E. Lee was a great man.  There are very few negative character comments about him from either side.





Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:58:48 AM EST
[#33]
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 4:59:50 AM EST
[#34]

Quoted:
Think of it when you visit Arlington National Cemetary; it was once Robert E. Lee's family home.


Yup, intended as a slam to REL, yet kinda backfired in my opinion. The most hallowed ground in the US.  Anyone ever visit Sherman's home?
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:03:33 AM EST
[#35]
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:12:37 AM EST
[#36]
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:13:14 AM EST
[#37]

Quoted:
During World War Two should America have rounded up all those of German decent like General Eisenhower? Of course not. Of course if they all had loyalty like Lee we would of had a problem. All this stuff trying to portray Lincoln as bad is beside the point. When Lee played lets switch allegiance Lincoln's only crime had been getting elected.  


I'm going to have to disagree here.

Pres. Lincoln's attitude towards the South was akin to, "don't like it? well, suck it bitches!"

His lack of seeking compromise pushed the Southern States to secession. Gen. Lee himself was opposed to secession at the beginning.

However, after Pres. Lincoln's call for troops to fight the South, 4 more states seceded rather than provide troops to a Federal government they considered out of control. One of these states was Gen. Lee's home state of Virginia.

Imagine that you were Gen. Lee and you were in the position to fight against your own state at the head of the the Union like Darth Vader leading imperial troops or something.

I believe that perhaps you're operating under the premise that Pres. Lincoln was right. I believe that many citizens disagreed at the time. I believe that Gen. Lee was not all pumped up to go out and kill Northerners, I believe he was just defending his home from tyranny.

Gen. Lee said, "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."

On the contrary, Pres. Lincoln could have prevented the war, instead he rushed head-long into it.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:17:29 AM EST
[#38]
  Timothy McVeigh & Robert E. Lee are two sides of the same coin to me. They were both honoroble men and good soldiers that declared war on their own country and became monsters. Robert E. Lee was able to kill more Americans than McVeigh though.

  There was a war . The south lost. Thanks to decisions made by Robert E. Lee and Jefferson "King Jeff"  Davis. Get over it.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:20:02 AM EST
[#39]

Quoted:
  Timothy McVeigh & Robert E. Lee are two sides of the same coin to me. They were honoroble men and good soldiers that declared war on their own country and became monsters.  


Not even close.

Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:22:39 AM EST
[#40]
That is a little unfair.
If you read some of his speeches prior to inauguration, you will see his attitude was that he was elected by the people. Even though he lost the popular vote, he did win the electoral votes necessary to be elected president.

In order to maintain the Union as it was intended, by the ballot boxes rather than weapons, he felt it was necessary to fight to preserve it.
You do not allow the minority to fight a legal election with weapons. They must vote and get others to vote at the next election if they disagree.
So it wasn't just suck it, it was the fact that he was legally elected to office and they didn't like it.

On a side note, I wish we could have taken a few pointers from the Confederate constitution. Bills can only deal with one topic/law instead of the crap now.
They had the line item veto already, and limiting terms to 1 term and such.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:22:50 AM EST
[#41]
The comments about Lee "declaring war on his own country" show how successful the FedGov has been in consolidating power and conforming people to the acceptance of its irresistable authority.

Prior to the war, the central (federal) government was nothing like it is today.

As Shelby Foote noted:

Before the war: The United states are...

After the war: The United States is...

Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:24:49 AM EST
[#42]

Quoted:
I recommend that folks should do some study into Lee's character before slandering him with their opinions.

He was a great man.


Amen.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:27:29 AM EST
[#43]
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:28:43 AM EST
[#44]

Quoted:
  Timothy McVeigh & Robert E. Lee are two sides of the same coin to me. They were both honoroble men and good soldiers that declared war on their own country and became monsters. Robert E. Lee was able to kill more Americans than McVeigh though.

  There was a war . The south lost. Thanks to decisions made by Robert E. Lee and Jefferson "King Jeff"  Davis. Get over it.



Well I'm safe, no matter what I post today it won't be as ignorant as this.

McVeigh intentionally targeted a building with a day care inside with a low-life style sucker punch.  To compare that piece of shit with REL is ridiculous.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:29:02 AM EST
[#45]

Quoted:
  Timothy McVeigh & Robert E. Lee are two sides of the same coin to me. They were both honoroble men and good soldiers that declared war on their own country and became monsters. Robert E. Lee was able to kill more Americans than McVeigh though.

  There was a war . The south lost. Thanks to decisions made by Robert E. Lee and Jefferson "King Jeff"  Davis. Get over it.


Hold on to your butts! Here comes the cartoon-history!!! (see my first post)
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:29:33 AM EST
[#46]

Quoted:
  Timothy McVeigh & Robert E. Lee are two sides of the same coin to me. They were both honoroble men and good soldiers that declared war on their own country and became monsters. Robert E. Lee was able to kill more Americans than McVeigh though.

This thread just got switched into high gear.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:31:54 AM EST
[#47]
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:32:39 AM EST
[#48]

Quoted:
That is a little unfair.
If you read some of his speeches prior to inauguration, you will see his attitude was that he was elected by the people. Even though he lost the popular vote, he did win the electoral votes necessary to be elected president.

In order to maintain the Union as it was intended, by the ballot boxes rather than weapons, he felt it was necessary to fight to preserve it.
You do not allow the minority to fight a legal election with weapons. They must vote and get others to vote at the next election if they disagree.
So it wasn't just suck it, it was the fact that he was legally elected to office and they didn't like it.

On a side note, I wish we could have taken a few pointers from the Confederate constitution. Bills can only deal with one topic/law instead of the crap now.
They had the line item veto already, and limiting terms to 1 term and such.


Please reread the 10th Amendment and execute a search on the rest of the Constitution for "secession."
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:32:47 AM EST
[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
William Tecumseh Sherman was a better man.


Lee forbid his men to harrass civilians.

Sherman slaughtered anybody in his path.

How is that better?


If you could please supply me with the names, places and dates of civilians "slaughtered" under the express orders of Gen sherman, I would be obliged.


Names?  You have to be kidding.  That's like saying the Turks didn't slaughter Armenians because I can't name one.

I'll admit that saying he "slaughtered anybody in his path" was a tad exaggerated, however, much of his "war" was directed at the civilian populace.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 5:32:50 AM EST
[#50]
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