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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/18/2002 2:50:46 AM EDT
Anyone see the malfunctioning AR on Combat Missions last night? Couldn't tell you what was wrong with it, but it seems to me the guy who ought to have won that round was robbed big time. With the rep. that the Survivor producers have, you've got to wonder...
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 3:19:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 7:53:30 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
One robbery, one mis-handling of an AR, IMHO. When two teams of 3 were competing in the "Urban Assualt mission" and the 2 blue team members ran one at a time to the toilet (EOM), I swear I heard the miles gear go off as Red teams final 2 ambushed the 2 Blue guys. They had what appeared to be perfect position for the ambush and rested the weapons on the window seals, how could they miss them? They were robbed! The armourer stated that the malfunction was caused by a poorly seated (IMHO a piece of junk) magazine. This resulted in failure of the bolt to pick up the top round. Subsequent racking of bolt caused the bolt to shear-off (never heard of this) the top back of rim and deposit it in the chamber along w/ other brass shavings. Removal of mag and eventual proper insertion meant that although round was eventually chambered there was foreign brass present in the chamber at the time of firing. Some shavings appears to have caused bolt to not go completely into battery, aggressive foward assist employment forced round forward and battery was reached at which point rifle was able to be fired. Same thing, improper seating of mag occured again at the next station and problem began to compund itself, w/ some deformation of the magazine feed lips and again troopers inabilty to properly assess the problem compounded the problem, till frustration took over and guy who should have won the competition (my observation) eliminated his self and destroyed the AR. Banging it on the ground while similar to the theroy that "what's needed is a bigger hammer" put an end to his chances. Interesting but very informative as I for one was wishing for access to AR-15.com (no 'puter at home) so I could ask: "[b]What kind/brand of mags were they using?[/b] Ending was a joke IMHO and sucked, reminded me of 2 kids going at it w/ Super-soakers, hell Cain should have just tackled Dex and shot him in the face while sitting on his chest. My take on TV show that had some very interesting and informative occurances as well as tactical aspects. Mike PS - Crying shame the seal didn't have the snap to just dump the rounds in his pocket toss the crappy mag and single load for the rest of the stage. Believe he could have won w/ a single shot AR. Reckon that would have been LEGAL to do?
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 4:47:38 AM EDT
what kind of mags? these kinds of mags: [url]http://www.simunition.com/index.php?section_id=91[/url]
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 5:04:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mr_wilson: One robbery, one mis-handling of an AR, IMHO. Ending was a joke IMHO and sucked, reminded me of 2 kids going at it w/ Super-soakers, hell Cain should have just tackled Dex and shot him in the face while sitting on his chest. Mike
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Yeah, seemed like it could have been a wrasslin match as far as that goes. Still for a first season and for this all being new, I liked the series. No word on whether it's picked up for year 2? M4-AK
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:40:09 AM EDT
The beeps you heard when they were running toward the toilet were the "little beeps" made by the MILES gear when it detects what it considers "near misses". Supposed to simulate the crack of the bullet as it passes a few inches from the side of your head, I guess [:)] Ah, so they were running that "biathlon" type deal using Simmunition. No wonder those plates were made out of such frangible material. Interesting. Obviously done for safety reasons. Has anyone used the AR-15 Simmunition rig? How reliable is it? When I saw the clear mag's I was thinking "I can't believe they are using that shit", but now it makes a little more sense, as those are part of the Simmunition kit for the AR. You have to wonder if they were fully briefed on any limitations or issues with the kit, and whether there are any disclaimers in their contracts regarding weapons failures, etc. They apparently all had a chance to check them out and sight in.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:13:59 AM EDT
why didn't they give them USGI mags that they have been using the whole time?
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:34:40 AM EDT
I'd just like to know, how does a guy become a Navy Seal, cool under fire, and lose his cool when his weapon jams? He could've even had time to remove the bolt carrier and examine it, re-insert it, clear out the breech and still he could've won. I've never been in LE or Military, but i've put enough rounds through my bushy to understand how to shove a magazine in properly and maintain my firearm properly. [(:)]
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:39:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 7:40:51 AM EDT by Vinnie]
Originally Posted By jleable: why didn't they give them USGI mags that they have been using the whole time?
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Probably a deal with Simunitions... "Simunitions, as seen on Combat Misions" [img]http://www.simunition.com/images/products/convertion_kit/rifles-big/colt-m16a3-carbine-14.5-bbl.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:43:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mcnielsen: I'd just like to know, how does a guy become a Navy Seal, cool under fire, and lose his cool when his weapon jams? He could've even had time to remove the bolt carrier and examine it, re-insert it, clear out the breech and still he could've won. I've never been in LE or Military, but i've put enough rounds through my bushy to understand how to shove a magazine in properly and maintain my firearm properly. [(:)]
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Someone is taking a quarter of a million dollars out of your pocket and see how cool you are under fire. He was frustrated, plain and simple. He had the best chances of winning but then his rifle screws up.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:45:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mcnielsen: I'd just like to know, how does a guy become a Navy Seal, cool under fire, and lose his cool when his weapon jams? He could've even had time to remove the bolt carrier and examine it, re-insert it, clear out the breech and still he could've won. I've never been in LE or Military, but i've put enough rounds through my bushy to understand how to shove a magazine in properly and maintain my firearm properly. [(:)]
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with a quarter of a million dollars at stake, i'd bet you'd get a bit panicky too if things didn't go just right. it ain't about clearing out the breech because of a misfeed either. the whole damn thing was faulty IMO. the mag wouldn't seat properly (i still don't believe that a SEAL doesn't know how to seat a mag, once maybe a snafu, but multiple times? c'mon.) and i'm not convinced that the rifle itself or at least the bolt/carrier mechanism weren't shoddy.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:54:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 10112002:
Originally Posted By mcnielsen: I'd just like to know, how does a guy become a Navy Seal, cool under fire, and lose his cool when his weapon jams? He could've even had time to remove the bolt carrier and examine it, re-insert it, clear out the breech and still he could've won. I've never been in LE or Military, but i've put enough rounds through my bushy to understand how to shove a magazine in properly and maintain my firearm properly. [(:)]
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with a quarter of a million dollars at stake, i'd bet you'd get a bit panicky too if things didn't go just right. it ain't about clearing out the breech because of a misfeed either. the whole damn thing was faulty IMO. the mag wouldn't seat properly (i still don't believe that a SEAL doesn't know how to seat a mag, once maybe a snafu, but multiple times? c'mon.) and i'm not convinced that the rifle itself or at least the bolt/carrier mechanism weren't shoddy.
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Yeah, I agree! It looked to me like he was using some force trying to get the mag in the mag well. I read somewhere else that the SWAT weapons guy at the end stated something about the magwell being crimped and then blamed that on Byers. I think Byers got a crappy weapon. I wonder what brand they were using? I think you are giving the SEALs too much credit to expect him to break open his weapon, examine the bolt, put it back together again, make his shot and continue on. That would cost him valuable seconds. The race between the other two guys was close enough that I think examining the bolt would make a significant difference to his time.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:57:36 AM EDT
I too thought last nights ending was crappy, hey, supersoakers-good idea. Don't say that too loud. But, I did enjoy the rest of the series. I_run_with_scissors [pistol]
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 5:47:32 PM EDT
Externally, the upper and the mag appear to be M16 units, but they are dedicated Simunitions units. Take a close look at the Simunitions magazine. The mag appears to be intended for a pistol length cartridge. That would mean that a special bolt/bolt carrier would be required and that a USGI mag would not work. It's a different animal with different characteristics. What works with an M16 doesn't necessarily work with a Simunitions AR. Byers test-fired and accepted the weapon. If it was damaged between the test-firing and the first stage of the exercise, it was on Byers to clear any malfunction or single-feed rounds if the rules permitted that. Final exercise looked like a Super-Soaker fight? What do you think a close quarters gun fight looks like when you can't pistol-whip the other guy when your gun runs dry and you're at arms-length?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:06:33 AM EDT
byers got bit in the ass by sir murphy plain and simple. the ending was pretty lame, would have liked it better if the last two were going up against the shadow squad. have something like capture the flag, infilltrat an area without getting shot. if they do, they stay put for 10sec, person with the best time wins
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:32:32 AM EDT
Leave it to Hollywood to f*ck up the show and give them PLASTIC magazines! Why didn't they stay true to the military/swat theme and use Colt mags or something else? Being in lawschool, I would tell that guy to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress! He was robbed and it should have been the duty of the show's producers to give them all the same opportunity to win the money. Considering this is a game show and that there are rules governing its kind, I'm wondering if the producers are liable on that alone? Sucks for him, he was definately robbed! ALTHOUGH he should have single fired it. I know one of the leaders said something like "jams occur in the field" so why would it have been against the rules to have single loaded it? FOUL PLAY!!!!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:50:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72: Sucks for him, he was definately robbed! ALTHOUGH he should have single fired it. I know one of the leaders said something like "jams occur in the field" so why would it have been against the rules to have single loaded it? FOUL PLAY!!!!
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Wouldn't we all have been impressed by Seal training if the Seal had the presence of mind to single load it and save his life (or in this case $250,000) instead of cursing his TV show provided POS. I doubt I would have had the presence of mind. OTOH, If this is a game show, it would have been more than fair to rerun that part if show provided equipment failed. Seems only fair since we're playing for $250.000. This gun and "plastic" mag was not his, nor was it taken care by the players, cleaned, lubricated, and nurtured as the tool that could save his life. We all know how maq quality affects AR performance and reliability. Instead, it was provided to him as being reliable, and equal, and it wasn't. M4-AK I still liked the show concept. Maybe next year.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:03:06 PM EDT
Minman and M4, That wasn't an AR15/M16. It was an AR15/M16 lower with a Simunitions upper that [b]REQUIRED THE USE OF A SIMUNITIONS CLEAR PLASTIC MAGAZINE[/b]. Byers accepted the weapon after test-firing it. I'm absolutely certain that the rules allowed the contestant to accept or refuse a weapon, then required that he assume responsibility for clearing any malfunctions. He knew the rules and signed a waiver/agreement to be bound by those rules. Byers was disappointed in his loss, and said he would rather have lost on his own merits then because of a weapons malfunction. He did lose on his own merits. He failed to properly operate the weapon, it malfunctioned and he failed to properly clear the weapon before rendering it inoperable. Remember. Even though the weapon [b]looked[/b] like an M4, it was a Simunitions AR Carbine, a different animal with different characteristics.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:33:35 PM EDT
just because he's is a SEAL doest mean he's got an "S" on his chest and wear a cape. he's a man and he is taught "immediate action" and "remedial action" just like anyone else. simunitions systems suck.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:55:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 4:02:35 AM EDT by aa777888-2]
Ah, just discovered the forums where some of the actual CM guys hang out, including Byers. Too bad we didn't find this earlier. We should go to that board and take over! [:)] Anyway, for the true, untold story on the big malfunction, see [url]http://forums.realitytvfans.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID64&mm=1&archive=[/url] and open the "Byers" thread. The only thing he leaves out is the probable cause of the jam, which is more than likely because some of the plastic sabot material used in the Simunition rounds got caught in the bolt/carrier/buffer assembly somewhere, jamming up the works good. Robbed, robbed, robbed.
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