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Posted: 8/30/2004 12:09:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:13:29 PM EST
I always felt it was just Revelations. The Bible as it exists today was made up of the other books, mostly later.
It also places a curse on those who would take things out, IIRC.
I always wondered if there might be those who would change the order however....
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:14:00 PM EST
Probably to just Revelation. The bible had not been cannonized when Revelation was written, even though it was the last cannonized book written.

However, this is a repeated warning. It occurs in the OT once also. Therefore one can conclude it is probably a good idea to apply to the whole bible.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:14:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 12:14:21 PM EST by wedge1082]
The author is talking just about the book of Revelations. The book like all the books of the bible was written separately and compiled later by the Church.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:17:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:19:55 PM EST
I believe that this passage just refers to the book of Revelation, due to the special blessing that God pronounced on the book at the begining.

However, there is another passage someplace else that says (paraphrased) "Let no man add to or take away from the words of the lord lest he be proven to be a liar".
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:22:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:26:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:
Rev. 22:18

For I testify unto every man that heareth the woeds of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


Is it talking about the whole Bible or just the book of Revelations?

I'm of the opinion that it was just the book of Revelations. Seems we've missed a lot of the churches history in the past 2,000 years or so. Then again, it was probably all just repeated history.



Just the book of Revelations. The "Bible" as a Book wasn't put together for another 400 years so there was no "Bible" at the time that Revelations was written. Many books that were accepted by early 1st Century Christians were left out of the Bible that we have today. Check this link for info on early Christian books:www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:30:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 12:31:20 PM EST by Sweep]
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:32:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:
So my question then is, "Where do I go to find writings about the church or Christ since Revelations?"

Just something I've always wondered about. Know about the other books that weren't included.



Check the link that I provided above.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:34:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By brasspile:
Speaking of which:

When was the first "Compilation" of The Books into The Bible? For example, the old testament, were those kept/read as seperate entities? (i.e. Talmud)



I don't know the date that the first compliation occured, but the Old Testament is the Jews old bible.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:11:50 PM EST
the whole bible
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:07:24 PM EST
well, it's possible that paul (the man) meant revelation, however all scripture is God breathed, so FWIW. however, you can find similar warnings in other places.

Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32
Proverbs 30:6

there very well may be more than that. my thoughts on it.

-Grant
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:13:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Thepilot:
well, it's possible that paul (the man) meant revelation, however all scripture is God breathed, so FWIW. however, you can find similar warnings in other places.

Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32
Proverbs 30:6

there very well may be more than that. my thoughts on it.

-Grant



Then why were some writings left out of the cannon of books when the Bible was put together. Seems like a bunch of men took it upon themselves to discide which was and which wasn't "God Breathed". Why not preserve all the early writing from the 1st Century Church and let the reader make up his or her mind as to what speaks to him or her of God?
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:21:55 PM EST
Here's a book that you won't find in your Bible. It was written between 50-140AD(same time period as some of the other Gospels) and was accepted by 1st Century Christains as the Word of God. Why was it left out of our "modern" Bible?


The Gospel
According to Thomas

These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.

(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

(4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."

(5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

(6) His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."

(7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

(8) And he said, "The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

(9) Jesus said, "Now the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered them. Some fell on the road; the birds came and gathered them up. Others fell on the rock, did not take root in the soil, and did not produce ears. And others fell on thorns; they choked the seed(s) and worms ate them. And others fell on the good soil and it produced good fruit: it bore sixty per measure and a hundred and twenty per measure."

(10) Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and see, I am guarding it until it blazes."

(11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

(12) The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

(13) Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out."
And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."

(14) Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

(15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

(16) Jesus said, "Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand solitary."

(17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind."

(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

(19) Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into being. If you become my disciples and listen to my words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted with them will not experience death."

(20) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like."
He said to them, "It is like a mustard seed. It is the smallest of all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

(21) Mary said to Jesus, "Whom are your disciples like?"
He said, "They are like children who have settled in a field which is not theirs. When the owners of the field come, they will say, 'Let us have back our field.' They (will) undress in their presence in order to let them have back their field and to give it back to them. Therefore I say, if the owner of a house knows that the thief is coming, he will begin his vigil before he comes and will not let him dig through into his house of his domain to carry away his goods. You, then, be on your guard against the world. Arm yourselves with great strength lest the robbers find a way to come to you, for the difficulty which you expect will (surely) materialize. Let there be among you a man of understanding. When the grain ripened, he came quickly with his sickle in his hand and reaped it. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

(22) Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom."
They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

(23) Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one out of a thousand, and two out of ten thousand, and they shall stand as a single one."

(24) His disciples said to him, "Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it."
He said to them, "Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness."

(25) Jesus said, "Love your brother like your soul, guard him like the pupil of your eye."

(26) Jesus said, "You see the mote in your brother's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye. When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to cast the mote from your brother's eye."

(27) <Jesus said,> "If you do not fast as regards the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath, you will not see the father."

(28) Jesus said, "I took my place in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in flesh. I found all of them intoxicated; I found none of them thirsty. And my soul became afflicted for the sons of men, because they are blind in their hearts and do not have sight; for empty they came into the world, and empty too they seek to leave the world. But for the moment they are intoxicated. When they shake off their wine, then they will repent."

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

(30) Jesus said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."

(31) Jesus said, "No prophet is accepted in his own village; no physician heals those who know him."

(32) Jesus said, "A city being built on a high mountain and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."

(33) Jesus said, "Preach from your housetops that which you will hear in your ear. For no one lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel, nor does he put it in a hidden place, but rather he sets it on a lampstand so that everyone who enters and leaves will see its light."

(34) Jesus said, "If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit."

(35) Jesus said, "It is not possible for anyone to enter the house of a strong man and take it by force unless he binds his hands; then he will (be able to) ransack his house."

(36) Jesus said, "Do not be concerned from morning until evening and from evening until morning about what you will wear."

(37) His disciples said, "When will you become revealed to us and when shall we see you?"
Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and tread on them, then will you see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"

(38) Jesus said, "Many times have you desired to hear these words which I am saying to you, and you have no one else to hear them from. There will be days when you will look for me and will not find me."

(39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

(40) Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted outside of the father, but being unsound, it will be pulled up by its roots and destroyed."

(41) Jesus said, "Whoever has something in his hand will receive more, and whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little he has."

(42) Jesus said, "Become passers-by."

(43) His disciples said to him, "Who are you, that you should say these things to us?"
<Jesus said to them,> "You do not realize who I am from what I say to you, but you have become like the Jews, for they (either) love the tree and hate its fruit (or) love the fruit and hate the tree."

(44) Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."

(45) Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorns, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they do not produce fruit. A good man brings forth good from his storehouse; an evil man brings forth evil things from his evil storehouse, which is in his heart, and says evil things. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil things."

(46) Jesus said, "Among those born of women, from Adam until John the Baptist, there is no one so superior to John the Baptist that his eyes should not be lowered (before him). Yet I have said, whichever one of you comes to be a child will be acquainted with the kingdom and will become superior to John."

(47) Jesus said, "It is impossible for a man to mount two horses or to stretch two bows. And it is impossible for a servant to serve two masters; otherwise, he will honor the one and treat the other contemptuously. No man drinks old wine and immediately desires to drink new wine. And new wine is not put into old wineskins, lest they burst; nor is old wine put into a new wineskin, lest it spoil it. An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, because a tear would result."

(48) Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in this one house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move Away,' and it will move away."

(49) Jesus said, "Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return."

(50) Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?', say, 'We are its children, we are the elect of the living father.' If they ask you, 'What is the sign of your father in you?', say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"

(51) His disciples said to him, "When will the repose of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?"
He said to them, "What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it."

(52) His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets spoke in Israel, and all of them spoke in you."
He said to them, "You have omitted the one living in your presence and have spoken (only) of the dead."

(53) His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision beneficial or not?"
He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."

(54) Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of heaven."

(55) Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me."

(56) Jesus said, "Whoever has come to understand the world has found (only) a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world."

(57) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a man who had good seed. His enemy came by night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The man did not allow them to pull up the weeds; he said to them, 'I am afraid that you will go intending to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be plainly visible, and they will be pulled up and burned."

(58) Jesus said, "Blessed is the man who has suffered and found life."

(59) Jesus said, "Take heed of the living one while you are alive, lest you die and seek to see him and be unable to do so."

(60) <They saw> a Samaritan carrying a lamb on his way to Judea. He said to his disciples, "That man is round about the lamb."
They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it."
He said to them, "While it is alive, he will not eat it, but only when he has killed it and it has become a corpse."
They said to him, "He cannot do so otherwise."
He said to them, "You too, look for a place for yourself within repose, lest you become a corpse and be eaten."

(61) Jesus said, "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and the other will live."
Salome said, "Who are you, man, that you ... have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?"
Jesus said to her, "I am he who exists from the undivided. I was given some of the things of my father."
<...> "I am your disciple."
<...> "Therefore I say, if he is destroyed, he will be filled with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness."

(62) Jesus said, "It is to those who are worthy of my mysteries that I tell my mysteries. Do not let your left (hand) know what your right (hand) is doing."

(63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

(64) Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite the guests.
He went to the first one and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
He went to another and said to him, 'My master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare time.'
He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused from the dinner.'
He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able to come. I ask to be excused.'
The servant returned and said to his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the places of my father."

(65) He said, "There was a good man who owned a vineyard. He leased it to tenant farmers so that they might work it and he might collect the produce from them. He sent his servant so that the tenants might give him the produce of the vineyard. They seized his servant and beat him, all but killing him. The servant went back and told his master. The master said, 'Perhaps he did not recognize them.' He sent another servant. The tenants beat this one as well. Then the owner sent his son and said, 'Perhaps they will show respect to my son.' Because the tenants knew that it was he who was the heir to the vineyard, they seized him and killed him. Let him who has ears hear."

(66) Jesus said, "Show me the stone which the builders have rejected. That one is the cornerstone."

(67) Jesus said, "If one who knows the all still feels a personal deficiency, he is completely deficient."

(68) Jesus said, "Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted. Wherever you have been persecuted they will find no place."

(69) Jesus said, "Blessed are they who have been persecuted within themselves. It is they who have truly come to know the father. Blessed are the hungry, for the belly of him who desires will be filled."

(70) Jesus said, "That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you."

(71) Jesus said, "I shall destroy this house, and no one will be able to build it [...]."

(72) A man said to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me."
He said to him, "O man, who has made me a divider?"
He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I am not a divider, am I?"

(73) Jesus said, "The harvest is great but the laborers are few. Beseech the Lord, therefore, to send out laborers to the harvest."

(74) He said, "O Lord, there are many around the drinking trough, but there is nothing in the cistern."

(75) Jesus said, "Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber."

(76) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a merchant who had a consignment of merchandise and who discovered a pearl. That merchant was shrewd. He sold the merchandise and bought the pearl alone for himself. You too, seek his unfailing and enduring treasure where no moth comes near to devour and no worm destroys."

(77) Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

(78) Jesus said, "Why have you come out into the desert? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a man clothed in fine garments like your kings and your great men? Upon them are the fine garments, and they are unable to discern the truth."

(79) A woman from the crowd said to him, "Blessed are the womb which bore you and the breasts which nourished you."
He said to her, "Blessed are those who have heard the word of the father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you will say, 'Blessed are the womb which has not conceived and the breasts which have not given milk.'"

(80) Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world."

(81) Jesus said, "Let him who has grown rich be king, and let him who possesses power renounce it."

(82) Jesus said, "He who is near me is near the fire, and he who is far from me is far from the kingdom."

(83) Jesus said, "The images are manifest to man, but the light in them remains concealed in the image of the light of the father. He will become manifest, but his image will remain concealed by his light."

(84) Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you rejoice. But when you see your images which came into being before you, and which neither die not become manifest, how much you will have to bear!"

(85) Jesus said, "Adam came into being from a great power and a great wealth, but he did not become worthy of you. For had he been worthy, he would not have experienced death."

(86) Jesus said, "The foxes have their holes and the birds have their nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head and rest."

(87) Jesus said, "Wretched is the body that is dependant upon a body, and wretched is the soul that is dependent on these two."

(88) Jesus said, "The angels and the prophets will come to you and give to you those things you (already) have. And you too, give them those things which you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what is theirs?'"

(89) Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not realize that he who made the inside is the same one who made the outside?"

(90) Jesus said, "Come unto me, for my yoke is easy and my lordship is mild, and you will find repose for yourselves."

(91) They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."
He said to them, "You read the face of the sky and of the earth, but you have not recognized the one who is before you, and you do not know how to read this moment."

(92) Jesus said, "Seek and you will find. Yet, what you asked me about in former times and which I did not tell you then, now I do desire to tell, but you do not inquire after it."

(93) <Jesus said,> "Do not give what is holy to dogs, lest they throw them on the dung-heap. Do not throw the pearls to swine, lest they [...] it [...]."

(94) Jesus said, "He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in."

(95) Jesus said, "If you have money, do not lend it at interest, but give it to one from whom you will not get it back."

(96) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a certain woman. She took a little leaven, concealed it in some dough, and made it into large loaves. Let him who has ears hear."

(97) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a certain woman who was carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking on the road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her on the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty."

(98) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a certain man who wanted to kill a powerful man. In his own house he drew his sword and stuck it into the wall in order to find out whether his hand could carry through. Then he slew the powerful man."

(99) The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father."

(100) They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "Caesar's men demand taxes from us."
He said to them, "Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."

(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

(102) Jesus said, "Woe to the pharisees, for they are like a dog sleeping in the manger of oxen, for neither does he eat nor does he let the oxen eat."

(103) Jesus said, "Fortunate is the man who knows where the brigands will enter, so that he may get up, muster his domain, and arm himself before they invade."

(104) They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today and let us fast."
Jesus said, "What is the sin that I have committed, or wherein have I been defeated? But when the bridegroom leaves the bridal chamber, then let them fast and pray."

(105) Jesus said, "He who knows the father and the mother will be called the son of a harlot."

(106) Jesus said, "When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man, and when you say, 'Mountain, move away,' it will move away."

(107) Jesus said, "The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine sheep and looked for that one until he found it. When he had gone to such trouble, he said to the sheep, 'I care for you more than the ninety-nine.'"

(108) Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

(109) Jesus said, "The kingdom is like a man who had a hidden treasure in his field without knowing it. And after he died, he left it to his son. The son did not know (about the treasure). He inherited the field and sold it. And the one who bought it went plowing and found the treasure. He began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

(110) Jesus said, "Whoever finds the world and becomes rich, let him renounce the world."

(111) Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will be rolled up in your presence. And the one who lives from the living one will not see death." Does not Jesus say, "Whoever finds himself is superior to the world?"

(112) Jesus said, "Woe to the flesh that depends on the soul; woe to the soul that depends on the flesh."

(113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
<Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."

(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:40:43 PM EST


(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."



Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot???
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 4:47:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 4:49:14 PM EST by TNFrank]

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:


(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."



Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot???



That's what I thought too. One of the translations said that this was added at a later date then the rest of the book, who knows. The last verse of the book of Mark(you know, the one where they'll pick up snakes and drink poision) was not in some of the earlier copies of Mark. That's why I have issues with anyone that says that the "Bible" is a perfect book. I agree that the basic concept of the Bible is the Word of God BUT like anything else, man will mess with and mess up whatever he touches, even the perfect Word of God. Check out the link on other Early Christian Wirtings that I have in my above posts. There are many other books that 99% of "Modern" Christians don't even know exsist but were accepted by 1st Century Christians as the Holy Word of God. The Bible that we have today is far from being a complete book of 1st Century Christian Wirtings, at best I'd call it a "Readers Digest" version of the Word of God, I guess for some it's enough but I want the total story so I can make up my own mind as to what to believe.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:21:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:27:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
the whole bible



Another vote here for the whole Bible.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:32:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By NMSight:

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
the whole bible



Another vote here for the whole Bible.



I took it as the whole bible as well. I know books have been added and removed, but not by me
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:43:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

Originally Posted By Thepilot:
well, it's possible that paul (the man) meant revelation, however all scripture is God breathed, so FWIW. however, you can find similar warnings in other places.

Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32
Proverbs 30:6

there very well may be more than that. my thoughts on it.

-Grant



Then why were some writings left out of the cannon of books when the Bible was put together. Seems like a bunch of men took it upon themselves to discide which was and which wasn't "God Breathed". Why not preserve all the early writing from the 1st Century Church and let the reader make up his or her mind as to what speaks to him or her of God?



Some writings were left out because their authorship was in question. You must remember that even from the very beginning there were a lot of sects that called themselves Christians, who DID NOT believe the gospel as taught by the Apostles. Many many forgeries existed, and many people tried to write letters that suited their own theology, but these people were rebuked by the genuine letters of the apostles and those like Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, and the like, who had direct ties to those who wrote the gospels.

Ignatius, for example, has many many letters attributed to him. But recent scholarship shows that many of the letters were not genuine at all.

Peter, James, Jude, Paul, and the other Apostles all wrote many letters. A good many of these letters were lost. The letters we have in the New Testament are all widely known letters that were dutifully copied and sent from church to church so that all could see. We can know of the validity of the letters we have because of the writings of the leaders of the first 2 centuries after Christ all quoted from them liberally and without reservation. Polycarp's letter to the Philipians, for instance, is a constant stream of quotations from the letters of Paul.

Clement of Alexandria quoted from all but 3 books of the New Testament as it now exists with over 2400 seperate quotations, and that is only in the writings we know of.

The letters we have in the Bible currently are the same basis that was used by the early Christians as the foundation to their faith, as the writings of the early church fathers witness. This is why they are included in the cannon of scripture, because they were widely read, widely accepted, and quoted often in the correspondence of Christians between each other.

Other letters are often not genuine. Even during the time of Paul there were a great many people who were preaching falsehoods and writing falsely in the name of the Apostles. This is why Paul wrote his own letters, because his handwriting was a sign of the genuine-ness of his writings. Further, he added that if any man tried to preach any other gospel than the one Paul had already preached, or even if HE were to preach any other gospel, then the false teacher should be accursed.

More research on the matter and more reading of the writings of the early Christian fathers has only strengthened my faith in the Word. God is able to keep a witness about Himself pure, and even use men to do it. Nothing is impossible to God, and I can see His hand forming the cannon of scripture.

As to the original question, I believe what John was writing was inspired by the Holy Spirit. John may have thought the warning was limited to the book of Revelations, but I believe that the Holy Spirit was talking about the entirety of scripture.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:51:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:
So my question then is, "Where do I go to find writings about the church or Christ since Revelations?"

Just something I've always wondered about. Know about the other books that weren't included.



Christ's revelation is now complete. Now its just a matter of interpretation.

The first, second and third century Christians went to GREAT lengths to validate the 66 books now included in "the Bible."

The Apocryphal books (largely made prominent by the Catholic church) are NOT part of the textus receptus ("received text") and while they might be interesting are not what i would consider "God's Word."

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 3:57:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 4:05:09 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By Sweep:
[
Is it talking about the whole Bible or just the book of Revelations?

.



Strictly speaking, just Revelations.

But I gotta think God is JUST as jealous as to His whole word.

Jesus said "Anyone who would lead one of these little children astray (as IS possible by so-called "other" books of the Bible) it would be better for him if a millstone were tied around his neck, and her were cast into the sea."

God does NOT take lightly false teaching.

Here's teh rule I would go by - ANYTHING in religious texts that does not agree with the 66 books of Scripture (Genesis thru Revelation) I would disregard.

Ain't there enuf in the 66 books to keep ya hoppin'????


Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:06:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
[
That's what I thought too. One of the translations said that this was added at a later date then the rest of the book, who knows. The last verse of the book of Mark(you know, the one where they'll pick up snakes and drink poision) was not in some of the earlier copies of Mark. That's why I have issues with anyone that says that the "Bible" is a perfect book. I agree that the basic concept of the Bible is the Word of God BUT like anything else, man will mess with and mess up whatever he touches, even the perfect Word of God. Check out the link on other Early Christian Wirtings that I have in my above posts. There are many other books that 99% of "Modern" Christians don't even know exsist but were accepted by 1st Century Christians as the Holy Word of God. The Bible that we have today is far from being a complete book of 1st Century Christian Wirtings, at best I'd call it a "Readers Digest" version of the Word of God, I guess for some it's enough but I want the total story so I can make up my own mind as to what to believe.



I don't believe in the veracity of the "gospel of thomas".

If you did a deeper study of early Christian history and the writings of early Christian history, or if indeed you just read the New Testament, you would see that there were MANY false teachings and false doctrines RAMPANT in the church EVEN WHEN the Apostles were still governing the church. ALL of the letters in the New Testament, (The Johanine letters, the Pauline letters, James, Jude, Peter) were ALL attempts to clear up questions of doctrine.

If you were to do a complete survey of everything that claimed to be a "christian" writing in the first two centuries after Christ, you would walk into a royal mess. There were false doctrines even in the time of Paul and Peter that denied that Christ ever came in the flesh. There were doctrines that discounted the resurrection of Christ and claimed it did not happen. There were other doctrines that claimed Christ was not deity at all, merely a man.

These were FALSE doctrines, and were exposed as such by the GENUINE apostles and the GENUINE leaders who were appointed and set forth BY the Apostles. The New Testament is REPLETE with references to the various false doctrines of the times, and Paul's letters demonstrate that there were those who attempted to forge his name to promote wrong doctrines.

So if you really want to look at ALL works of the first and second centuries after Christ to see the "whole picture", you will see a whole lot that is just rankly untrue. Man indeed has tried to mess up the Word of God since the very earliest times.

Your supposition, however, is that ALL men tried to foul up the faith, and that God would permit such a thing, and thus that all "christian" writings are equal. This is not the case.

You won't find that many gnostics were martyred for the faith. What you WILL find is men like Paul, Polycarp, Peter, Ignatius (bad spelling), Andrew, and other good Christians who believed in the Word of God as revealed in what we now know as the New Testament giving their lives for the Glory of God. We only know of the Lord Jesus Christ because the witness of the Apostles shows Him to us. If we believe in Christ at all, it is because Christ chose these men to deliver the Gospel to all the world.

The writings of the genuine Apostles who walked with Jesus and who preached the TRUE GOSPEL at the price of their own lives are SCRIPTURE. They are divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit and are 100% true in every single word. These men were called by Christ, walked with Him, and paid for the Gospel with their own blood, unashamed to stand for the truth that had been delivered to them.

Contrasting that to the false writings out there where the authors forged the names of Apostles. These people lied about doctrine and taught falsehoods, whereas the Apostles died to preach the truth.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:13:41 AM EST
I find it strange that God would talk to men from Adam down to the Apostles of Christ and we would have their writings (The Bible). But he can’t be bothered to talk to us since then and that there is no further revelation (scripture). Did we do something wrong?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:32:35 AM EST
How do you know for sure that the people that put together the Canon of Scripture didn't have Their Own agenda in mind when they kept this book and threw out that book? How do you know for sure if some of the books that they threw out weren't the Holy Word of God? What would make you such an athority to come to such a conclusion, especially since I'd be willing to bet that you've not read ANY of the books that were left out of the Canon of Scripture save for the Gospel of Thomas and that's only because I posted it here.
Personally, I think the "Word of God" comes from the inside of a man and is inspired in him today by the Holy Spirit same as it was "back in the day". I guess that kind of makes me a Gnostic, in that I feel that we come to know God from the inside and not from anything that is on the outside. I believe that the "Bible" is the Word of God but I also believe that there are flaws in it since it has been handed down to man from upon high. The Word od God came down pure but thru time and translation it's original meaning has been garbbled and mis-translated to the point where we can't really trust what we read in Todays books.
Take 50 people, line them up. Now wisper something in the first ones ear and have them pass it on the same way. Go to the end of the line and listen to what the 50th person tells you. Is it the same thing, word for word, that you told the 1st person. I'd be willing to bet that it is not. Same thing has happened with the Bible. 2000 years of coping and translating has changed some of the meaning so that it's not exsactly what God had wispered in the ear of the writer. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. I guess we'll find out who was right when we stand before God someday. [
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:52:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By SaranWrap:
I find it strange that God would talk to men from Adam down to the Apostles of Christ and we would have their writings (The Bible). But he can’t be bothered to talk to us since then and that there is no further revelation (scripture). Did we do something wrong?



A myth.

God still speaks, as He is a speaking God. He speaks through the person of the Holy Spirit. It is possible, and is indeed God's fondest desire, for the Holy Spirit to dwell within a man and to speak with Him. I know this because the Holy Spirit speaks to me regularly!

God WILL NOT, however, contradict Himself. He will never contradict the written Word. This is why Paul encourages Christians to test all spirits to see if they be from God. You test them by the Word. Any spirit that denies Christ is of the devil, whereas any Spirit that glorifies Christ is of God.

There is only one spirit of God, and that is the Holy Spirit!!!
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:13:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By SaranWrap:
I find it strange that God would talk to men from Adam down to the Apostles of Christ and we would have their writings (The Bible). But he can’t be bothered to talk to us since then and that there is no further revelation (scripture). Did we do something wrong?



He can't be bothered to talk to us???

You don't pray do you? While he may not speak to us out loud that does not mean he doesn't talk to us. If you are truly interested in an answer to your question, and not just stirring the pot, I suggest you find a "seeking" class at one of your local churches. More than likely you will receive an answer by the time the class is over. Our church runs a 10 week class that was very good and cleared up a lot of the "myths" that I assumed were facts going into the class.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:17:02 AM EST
Let me ask this question if it hasn't been asked before.

Is the Bible complete? Because something I just get the feeling that some of the books refer to other books that don't exist. Am I reading it wrong. Just curious.

TIA.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:26:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
How do you know for sure that the people that put together the Canon of Scripture didn't have Their Own agenda in mind when they kept this book and threw out that book? How do you know for sure if some of the books that they threw out weren't the Holy Word of God? What would make you such an athority to come to such a conclusion, especially since I'd be willing to bet that you've not read ANY of the books that were left out of the Canon of Scripture save for the Gospel of Thomas and that's only because I posted it here.



I have indeed read some of the other books. Some, like the book of Enoch, are even quoted by New Testament authors. I have also read the writings of the early church fathers like Clement and Polycarp, and I know that there are MANY false doctrines out there. You seem to think that all of these "extra" writings out there are genuine. They are not. Some genuine writings have been lost to time (Paul mentions a 3rd unknown letter in 2nd Corinthians that he wrote to the church in between what we know as 1st and 2nd Corinthians, but that letter is lost....)

HERE IS THE KEY: There is no GENUINE CHRISTIAN WORK out there that proclaims another way to God except Christ the Savior, who was born of a Virgin, Crucified, and Resurected bodily in power and great glory. No GENUINE Christian work can assail the moral standards of God. No GENUINE Christian work denies the slightest drop of the Gospel. The "gospel of thomas" you quoted has SOME TRUTH in it, as I can go to the 4 true Gospels and show many of the same quotations of Christ Jesus mentioned therein. But does it follow, then, that ALL of it is true? No. Within the 4 synoptic Gospels there is a consistent witness about the sayings and ministry of Christ Jesus.

We know from the writings of early church fathers like these that the scriptures present in our New Testament ARE FAITHFULLY delivered to us in the New Testament. Thus the idea of people persuing their own "agenda" seems to fall short. We have within our hands the same scriptures that formed the basis of TRUE early Christian theology and doctrine if the writings of the early church fathers are to be believed. Thus the idea that man's ambition polluted the New Testament falls short on intellectual grounds.

On spiritual grounds, it is impossible for me to believe that Almighty God is somehow powerless to preserve the truth from the evil of men.



Personally, I think the "Word of God" comes from the inside of a man and is inspired in him today by the Holy Spirit same as it was "back in the day". I guess that kind of makes me a Gnostic, in that I feel that we come to know God from the inside and not from anything that is on the outside. I believe that the "Bible" is the Word of God but I also believe that there are flaws in it since it has been handed down to man from upon high. The Word od God came down pure but thru time and translation it's original meaning has been garbbled and mis-translated to the point where we can't really trust what we read in Todays books.



To an extent you are correct. God the Holy Spirit has not withdrawn from men. He is still in the earth and still speaking to all who would listen with a pure heart. This is unquestioned. The only true way to know God (and when I say "know" I mean that you can literally know God as well as you can know any person on earth, and you can cultivate a very real 2-way relationship with Him just as you can with any other person on earth...) is to know Him from personal experience.

The Bible is God's revelation to man. It is a map. The Bible is meant to create a hunger in man to know the UnKnowable God for himself, and to experience all that is written within the pages of the Bible. The Bible is a promisory note, and God's intention is that every man hold up that note and cry out for the payment of that promise in their daily life.

But your ability to experience that is limited. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If you don't believe in the Word, then you are not capable of having a right relationship with God, and thusly cannot experience all God longs to show you. If you reject the root, how then can you eat of the fruit of the tree?

We have more access to more of the Word today than ever. We have resources like Strong's concordance that looks back to original greek and Hebrew manuscripts that pre-date the cannon of scripture by a great span and relate the exact words and meanings from those manuscripts to us today. We have archeological evidence from the 1st and 2nd centuries after Christ that can recreate 90% of the New Testament as we now know it from the ordinary correspondence of Christians. We have faithful translations of the writings of Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, Polycarp, and other leaders immediately after the Apostles that quote liberally from the writings now in the New Testament and that show us that the content of the faith was not perverted.

Yet you still don't believe we can trust what we have? I tell you this: The same hands that penned the story of salvation and tells of the life of Jesus penned the rest of the New Testament. If these men cannot be believed about even the smallest thing, if the Holy Spirit's power is not sufficient to keep the truth on even the smallest matter, then all of it is a lie, and only a fool would believe any of it.

If God is so weak that He cannot even preserve His own word, then He is no God at all.

But my faith stands, because I know that there is NOTHING beyond His power.



Take 50 people, line them up. Now wisper something in the first ones ear and have them pass it on the same way. Go to the end of the line and listen to what the 50th person tells you. Is it the same thing, word for word, that you told the 1st person. I'd be willing to bet that it is not. Same thing has happened with the Bible. 2000 years of coping and translating has changed some of the meaning so that it's not exsactly what God had wispered in the ear of the writer. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. I guess we'll find out who was right when we stand before God someday. [



You are right about the party line. But consider this example:

Line up 50 people before a great King, who says that every man will be accountable for EVERY WORD that is delivered to him. Any man who does not FAITHFULLY render EVERY WORD to the next man will be executed.

Do you think the results would change? Absolutely.

The men who wrote the Gospels faced crosses, lions, whips, chains, shipwreck, exile, all sorts of horrors, and they faced them GLADLY to gain eternal life. If they considered hell so abominable that they would face horrific deaths rather than deny God, why then would they jeapordize their soul over being careless with God's word?

There are CONSEQUENCES for mishandling God's Word. The Apostles believed this ferverently.

There have indeed been translations over time. But I tell you again:

THIS VERY MOMENT YOU CAN PURCHASE STRONG'S CONCORDANCE AND REFERENCE THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE WITH GREEK AND HEBREW MANUSCRIPTS THAT PREDATE THE CANNON OF SCRIPTURE BY HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

You CAN know the truth if you search it out. But you do not seem to have a hunger to know the truth. Truth must ALWAYS be searched for. No one is going to just drop it in your lap.

Plenty of people will drop all sorts of lies in your lap and walk away, and will sow all sorts of mistrust. But truth must be sought like Gold and precious jewels. If you do not search, you will never find.

Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. You must seek out truth rather than believing whatever BS some idiot theologian with a degree and not an OUNCE OF GOD IN HIS LIFE belches forth from the blackness of his self-worshipping heart. It is EASY to assault the Bible because the human heart lusts against the things of God and resents accountability to Him.

But God's truth remains UNCHANGED by what any PHD or preacher says. I AM THAT I AM, says the Lord. Hear Him this day and find freedom from unbelief and doubt. Let us have FAITH, and HOLINESS, without which it is impossible to please Him.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:29:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By sterling18:
Let me ask this question if it hasn't been asked before.

Is the Bible complete? Because something I just get the feeling that some of the books refer to other books that don't exist. Am I reading it wrong. Just curious.

TIA.



IMHO the answer is NO, it is not complete. Like I said before, the people that Canonized the Bible had their own agenda in mind when they put the "Bible" together. Anytime man puts his hand into what God has given he'll mess it up and the Bible is no exception. The people that put the Canon together had their own idea of what they wanted the "Bible" to say, they picked books that agreed with THEIR point of view and threw out ones that didn't agree. Who were they to say what is Scripture and what is not? If you try to say that the Holy Sprirt guided them in their choice then I'll tell you that Satan could have just as easily guided them. It like the way the Democrats and left leaning people are picking and choosing parts of the Constitution that they like and ignoring or trying to get rid of parts that they don't. You either take it all or take none of it. Either give us all of the 1st Century books so we can make up our own minds or don't bother giving us any of it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:33:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By sterling18:
Let me ask this question if it hasn't been asked before.

Is the Bible complete? Because something I just get the feeling that some of the books refer to other books that don't exist. Am I reading it wrong. Just curious.

TIA.



Is the Bible the complete word of God? Yes.

Is the Bible a total compliation of all supposedly "Christian" writings? Absolutely not.

The book of Jude quotes a book of Enoch that is not in most of our Bibles. Does that make the Bible incomplete as God's word? No.

Within the Bible is the complete textual revelation of God. Within it's pages is more of God than ANY human being can possibly contain in a lifetime. When lived out, and used as a map to the heart of the Father, there is depth in the Bible that even the stoutest human soul cannot fathom.

But the Word of God is eternal. Jesus said that heaven and earth would pass away before one jot or tittle of the Word would pass away. That means that the very fabric of existence is more fragile than God's Word.

Nothing genuine will contradict what is written in the Word. I have enjoyed studying the writings of men like Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement of Alexandria and others. But their writings are not scripture, so scripture is always of primal importance. These other writings are beneficial and often provide insight, but they are not replacements for scripture.

I look at them more as history and commentary than divine scripture, even when they agree with scripture.

Anything that contradicts the New Testament and the Gospel delivered to the saints is a lie from Hell and is not to be believed.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 6:33:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
How do you know for sure that the people that put together the Canon of Scripture didn't have Their Own agenda in mind when they kept this book and threw out that book? . [



How do we know ANYTHING about history???

We go on the best available info.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:15:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 7:18:03 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

IMHO the answer is NO, it is not complete. Like I said before, the people that Canonized the Bible had their own agenda in mind when they put the "Bible" together. Anytime man puts his hand into what God has given he'll mess it up and the Bible is no exception. The people that put the Canon together had their own idea of what they wanted the "Bible" to say, they picked books that agreed with THEIR point of view and threw out ones that didn't agree. Who were they to say what is Scripture and what is not? If you try to say that the Holy Sprirt guided them in their choice then I'll tell you that Satan could have just as easily guided them. It like the way the Democrats and left leaning people are picking and choosing parts of the Constitution that they like and ignoring or trying to get rid of parts that they don't. You either take it all or take none of it. Either give us all of the 1st Century books so we can make up our own minds or don't bother giving us any of it.



I have posted many times how the Bible IS the exception. We have VERIFIABLE WAYS OF CHECKING THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT TODAY CONTAINS THE SAME WORKS THAT FORMED THE FOUNDATION OF THE FAITH OF THE VERY EARLIEST BELIEVERS.

But if you don't WANT to see the truth, then no man can make you.

ALL 1st Century and 2nd century writings ARE NOT GENUINE. That is why there are many left out....

Again I say: If God is too weak to preserve the integrity of His word, then He is no God at all, and we are better off just ignoring Him.

Without faith it is impossible to please Him. If you desperately want a reason to assault the veracity of the Bible, you will most likely find it, regardless of what the truth is.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:24:00 AM EST
"Again I say: If God is too weak to preserve the integrity of His word, then He is no God at all, and we are better off just ignoring Him."

It's not God that I'm worried about, it's MAN. Why is it that King James had the word "Hades" translated "Hell" when the word "grave" would have been a better translation? Much confussion has come up over that translation. Many other words have be mis-translated and that has given rise to many false doctrins that have come to be "gospel" in the modern Church today. I DO NOT TRUST MAN, and since MAN is the one that's copied, translated and printed the Scrupture for the last 2000 years I'm sure that he, not God, has imbeded many flaws into the Word of God, wether knowingly or unknowingly but I'm sure that they are there and that's why we're having the problems in the Church that we have today.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:40:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

It's not God that I'm worried about, it's MAN. Why is it that King James had the word "Hades" translated "Hell" when the word "grave" would have been a better translation? Much confussion has come up over that translation. Many other words have be mis-translated and that has given rise to many false doctrins that have come to be "gospel" in the modern Church today. I DO NOT TRUST MAN, and since MAN is the one that's copied, translated and printed the Scrupture for the last 2000 years I'm sure that he, not God, has imbeded many flaws into the Word of God, wether knowingly or unknowingly but I'm sure that they are there and that's why we're having the problems in the Church that we have today.



The Greek word Hades did not merely mean grave. Hades was used also as a name for the place where the souls of the dead went AFTER death. You need to brush up on your greek culture some. Hades was used by Greeks to describe the grave, but also in reference to a place where the souls of dead men were collected. The place took its name from the god Hades, who was Zeus' brother and lord of the underworld.

You are essentially saying that God is in heaven, frustrated and powerless to stop the mis-appropriation of His word for the evil purposes in the heart of men with your statement. If God is, then He is able to rightly deliver His word. If not, then He is no god at all.

I don't believe in such a puny concept of God.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:49:08 AM EST
Well, let's see. Man has "freewill" and can do anything that he wants to do. I think that would include(but not be limited to) messing up the Word of God for his own evil purpose. God isn't the master of this world, Satan is, or did you forget that? Wars, murder, rape, poverty, starvation, drought, fires, floods, et al aren't being stoped by God because once he set the world in motion it was pretty much on it's own. God doesn't control everything that takes place on this planet, that's why it's a "Miracle" when God does do something, because it's not normal for him to interfear. Freewill is proof enough that his Word has been, can be and will be messed with, mis-interpeted and mis-read. He gave it to us pure and with our freewill we've messed it up. Plain and simple.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:58:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 8:01:44 AM EST by scrum]
The Gospel of Thomas was attributed to a Gnostic offshoot (ie, a cult, based on Greek Gnostic doctrine) that was excluded from the Canon based on its specific text/documentary conflicts with the other Gospels and based on its sharp variances on core doctrine versus other documents consistently agreed upon as clearly scriptural.

Historical documentary analysis, by religious and secular historians as well as theologians from conservative and liberal camps, has pretty conclusively agreed with the removal of the book from the Canon, however the Gospel of Thomas tends to still draw fans from the tinfoil hat crowd that generally revels more in being contrarian than in being correct.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:03:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Well, let's see. Man has "freewill" and can do anything that he wants to do. I think that would include(but not be limited to) messing up the Word of God for his own evil purpose. God isn't the master of this world, Satan is, or did you forget that? Wars, murder, rape, poverty, starvation, drought, fires, floods, et al aren't being stoped by God because once he set the world in motion it was pretty much on it's own. God doesn't control everything that takes place on this planet, that's why it's a "Miracle" when God does do something, because it's not normal for him to interfear. Freewill is proof enough that his Word has been, can be and will be messed with, mis-interpeted and mis-read. He gave it to us pure and with our freewill we've messed it up. Plain and simple.



Man has a certain lattitude to go against God's will, that is true. But man is NOT master of this world, nor does he have the power to assail a Sovereign work of God.

The Revelation of God's Word is the basis of faith in Christ, and is the basis of all faith we can possibly have in Him. God is more than able to preserve that. It was not at random that Christ chose the Apostles. It was not at random that Christ appeared to Paul. It was not at random that God moved on the hearts of devout men to keep the integrity of the written word.

If you cannot see the hand of God in preserving the truth, then you can't see God at all. You haven't faith enough to do so.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:06:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By scrum:
The Gospel of Thomas was attributed to a Gnostic offshoot (ie, a cult, based on Greek Gnostic doctrine) that was excluded from the Canon based on its specific text/documentary conflicts with the other Gospels and based on its sharp variances on core doctrine versus other documents consistently agreed upon as clearly scriptural.

Historical documentary analysis, by religious and secular historians as well as theologians from conservative and liberal camps, has pretty conclusively agreed with the removal of the book from the Canon, however the Gospel of Thomas tends to still draw fans from the tinfoil hat crowd that generally revels more in being contrarian than in being correct.



Indeed a great deal of so called "Christian" writings of the time were indeed forgeries that claimed to be geunine but preached a totally different theology than the Gospel delivered to the saints by the Apostles. Thus trusting to those false works is damning your soul.

Most often I find that the people who shout most loudly about the Bible not being true are people who WANT it not to be true so they can evade accountability to what is written in it. Many paths to God, you know, because the scriptures are nothing more than a man made mess....

This condemnation has come into the world: That light has come into the world and yet man loves darkness....

How true. How true.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:09:09 AM EST
John 3:16 For God so loved the earth that he set his only sun that whosoever should see it should not perish but have everlasting light.

Wow, I mess that up and funny thing is I didn't feel a "Force" trying to stop me or get hit by lightning either. Where was God when I typed that? Why didn't he preserve his word? Maybe it's because I have freewill and can do as I please, wether God likes it or not. Now, let's go back a few hundred years, I'm the King and want to "translate" the Bible for my pesents but let's tweek it a bit so that my pesents will stay loyal to me and not try to overthrow me. Gee, how easy would that be. I'd say pretty easy, just as easy as I tweeked John 3:16. So you see, God has no power to preserve his word in the light of freewill. All he can do is deliever it to us pure and proper, what we do with it after that is up to us, not up to him.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:11:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By M4arc:

Originally Posted By SaranWrap:
I find it strange that God would talk to men from Adam down to the Apostles of Christ and we would have their writings (The Bible). But he can’t be bothered to talk to us since then and that there is no further revelation (scripture). Did we do something wrong?



He can't be bothered to talk to us???

You don't pray do you? While he may not speak to us out loud that does not mean he doesn't talk to us. If you are truly interested in an answer to your question, and not just stirring the pot, I suggest you find a "seeking" class at one of your local churches. More than likely you will receive an answer by the time the class is over. Our church runs a 10 week class that was very good and cleared up a lot of the "myths" that I assumed were facts going into the class.



M4arc,

I find your logic flawed. People have been praying since Adam and Eve, yet the Lord blessed mankind with scripture during centuries and centuries of people praying. God certainly blesses us with inspiration on an individual basis. He did it back then too in ancient times. That doesn't make it any less necessary to have His word in scripture. Why should that scripture be a closed canon?

I know there are some here who say that it's all been said and the Lord doesn't need to tell us any more. "A Bible, a Bible, we have a Bible and we need no more Bible," is their general stance. However, their only claim to authority on that stance is their own interpretation of scripture. As has been seen a million times, personal interpretation of scripture holds little bearing on the rest of the world as far as authority is concerned. Otherwise, there wouldn't be thousands of different denominations of Christianity.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:12:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 8:15:33 AM EST by Shane333]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:

It's not God that I'm worried about, it's MAN. Why is it that King James had the word "Hades" translated "Hell" when the word "grave" would have been a better translation? Much confussion has come up over that translation. Many other words have be mis-translated and that has given rise to many false doctrins that have come to be "gospel" in the modern Church today. I DO NOT TRUST MAN, and since MAN is the one that's copied, translated and printed the Scrupture for the last 2000 years I'm sure that he, not God, has imbeded many flaws into the Word of God, wether knowingly or unknowingly but I'm sure that they are there and that's why we're having the problems in the Church that we have today.



The Greek word Hades did not merely mean grave. Hades was used also as a name for the place where the souls of the dead went AFTER death. You need to brush up on your greek culture some. Hades was used by Greeks to describe the grave, but also in reference to a place where the souls of dead men were collected. The place took its name from the god Hades, who was Zeus' brother and lord of the underworld.

You are essentially saying that God is in heaven, frustrated and powerless to stop the mis-appropriation of His word for the evil purposes in the heart of men with your statement. If God is, then He is able to rightly deliver His word. If not, then He is no god at all.

I don't believe in such a puny concept of God.




John_Wayne777,

Thank you for proving my point about interpretations.

ETA: TNFrank's point was that any mistakes in scripture are due to man's weaknesses. He wasn't saying the God was weak. Otherwise, why are there multiple versions of the Bible. Hmmm...must be the fault of men who did the translating and interpreting.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:20:49 AM EST
I believe that the "True Word of God" is written in our hearts. Anything that is brought into the "World" is subject to Satan and his unholy rule, even the printed Word of God and therefore is subject to mis-interpetation, mis-quotation,and mis-information. The only place where we can hear the True Word is in our hearts. If it's printed it can and will be mis-printed. If it's copied it can and will be mis-copied. If it's interpeted it CAN and WILL be mis-interpeted. The world is a flawed place and anything that comes into the world will also become flawed with time. The "Prince of this World"(Satan) won't allow us keep the Word of God pure, he'll mess it up by using people as his tools. This is why I feel that the Gnostics had the right idea, God will reveal himself to us thru our "knowing" , not thru anything of this world, and books are of this world.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:23:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
John 3:16 For God so loved the earth that he set his only sun that whosoever should see it should not perish but have everlasting light.

Wow, I mess that up and funny thing is I didn't feel a "Force" trying to stop me or get hit by lightning either. Where was God when I typed that? Why didn't he preserve his word? Maybe it's because I have freewill and can do as I please, wether God likes it or not. Now, let's go back a few hundred years, I'm the King and want to "translate" the Bible for my pesents but let's tweek it a bit so that my pesents will stay loyal to me and not try to overthrow me. Gee, how easy would that be. I'd say pretty easy, just as easy as I tweeked John 3:16. So you see, God has no power to preserve his word in the light of freewill. All he can do is deliever it to us pure and proper, what we do with it after that is up to us, not up to him.



What is this? A test? God didn't strike you down, cram a cat in your ass, notify the BATFE, send you a letter, turn your wife into a newt, so you think that proves he doesn't direct the word?

See if your version gets added to the Bible or gets lost to history. Whichever one of these things happens, happens because in is supposed to be that way. God isn't our little toy.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:30:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
John 3:16 For God so loved the earth that he set his only sun that whosoever should see it should not perish but have everlasting light.

Wow, I mess that up and funny thing is I didn't feel a "Force" trying to stop me or get hit by lightning either. Where was God when I typed that? Why didn't he preserve his word? Maybe it's because I have freewill and can do as I please, wether God likes it or not. .




Actually, its evidence of God's mercy He didn't strike you dead.

Don't abuse it, clown.



Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:31:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
I believe that the "True Word of God" is written in our hearts. Anything that is brought into the "World" is subject to Satan and his unholy rule, even the printed Word of God and therefore is subject to mis-interpetation, mis-quotation,and mis-information. The only place where we can hear the True Word is in our hearts. If it's printed it can and will be mis-printed. If it's copied it can and will be mis-copied. If it's interpeted it CAN and WILL be mis-interpeted. The world is a flawed place and anything that comes into the world will also become flawed with time. The "Prince of this World"(Satan) won't allow us keep the Word of God pure, he'll mess it up by using people as his tools. This is why I feel that the Gnostics had the right idea, God will reveal himself to us thru our "knowing" , not thru anything of this world, and books are of this world.



If you believe that the gnostics had the right idea, then I am truly sorry.

You are lost.

Despite all the exhortations in the scripture, despite all the warnings of false teachers, you have believed a lie.

God does indeed want to reveal Himself to us and dwell in the heart of men. That is not at issue.

But He will never EVER go against His own word. If any of the word is false, it all is, and we have no hope.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:54:10 AM EST
Here's another "mis-conception" that Christians have. 99% of Christians today believe that the entire earth was a paridise until the fall of man, at which point the entire earth fell into ruin and chaos. Now, re-read Genesis, you'll see that ONLY the Garden of Eden was a paridise, the rest of the planet was already in ruin and chaos because the rest of the planet was under the control of Satan and his fallen angles, remember, Satan and 1/3 of the angels that rebeled with him were cast down to the earth, this happened BEFORE the fall of man, that's how Satan was able to speak to Eve thru a serpent. He was already here, on earth. Now, go and ask a Christian what the earth(the entire earth) was like before the fall of man, I'd bet dollars to donuts that they'll say the entire earth was a paridise but that's not what the Bibles says, is it?
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:01:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
I believe that the "True Word of God" is written in our hearts. Anything that is brought into the "World" is subject to Satan and his unholy rule, even the printed Word of God and therefore is subject to mis-interpetation, mis-quotation,and mis-information. The only place where we can hear the True Word is in our hearts. If it's printed it can and will be mis-printed. If it's copied it can and will be mis-copied. If it's interpeted it CAN and WILL be mis-interpeted. The world is a flawed place and anything that comes into the world will also become flawed with time. The "Prince of this World"(Satan) won't allow us keep the Word of God pure, he'll mess it up by using people as his tools. This is why I feel that the Gnostics had the right idea, God will reveal himself to us thru our "knowing" , not thru anything of this world, and books are of this world.



I know what was written in my heart. Sin. It still is, but by the grace of God am I able to no longer wallow in it. Listening to what's written in your heart will be death to you. Man's arrogance at it's best.

Amen to your posts Brother John_Wayne777
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:25:03 AM EST
TNFrank:

While I agree with your point somewhat about the garden, we must guard ourselves against what this topic is about.



Rev. 22:18

For I testify unto every man that heareth the woeds of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:



Specifically, I cannot find the parts in Red below in the Bible.


Originally Posted By TNFrank:
Here's another "mis-conception" that Christians have. 99% of Christians today believe that the entire earth was a paridise until the fall of man, at which point the entire earth fell into ruin and chaos. Now, re-read Genesis, you'll see that ONLY the Garden of Eden was a paridise, the rest of the planet was already in ruin and chaos because the rest of the planet was under the control of Satan and his fallen angles, remember, Satan and 1/3 of the angels that rebeled with him were cast down to the earth, this happened BEFORE the fall of man, that's how Satan was able to speak to Eve thru a serpent. He was already here, on earth. Now, go and ask a Christian what the earth(the entire earth) was like before the fall of man, I'd bet dollars to donuts that they'll say the entire earth was a paridise but that's not what the Bibles says, is it?



I believe it may be inferred that the rest of the planet was not paradise, afterall what would be the point of throwing Adam and Eve out of the garden, but the rest of the red stuff has me at a loss as to where to find it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:36:05 AM EST
When was Satan cast out of heaven?
Was it before 1914, or after 1914 as Jehovah Witnesses believe?


Q. When was Satan cast out of heaven? Was it at the beginning of the world or after (as Jehovahs Witnesses believe)? The JWs believe Satan was thrown out in 1914 when the first World War started. Now to me that makes no sense. Why would God keep Satan in heaven after he deceived Adam and Eve and so many others and only decide to throw him out in 1914?

(Submitted by: J. W.)

A. Satan clearly was tossed out of heaven long before 1914. One key text proving this is Luke 10:18, where Jesus said:
"I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightening."

Satan was on earth when he initially revolted against God. Notice that Lucifer/Satan said in Isaiah 14:13:
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: . . . "

So although Lucifer had been the covering cherub, right over God Himself on His throne (see Ezek. 28:14), he then was transferred to the earth while still obedient. While on the earth, ruling over it, he (and one third of the other angels) decided to rebel against God. As he rose up to attack heaven, he was cast down to earth, as Jesus had seen.

It does appear, however, that Satan will once again try to rise up from the earth to attack heaven, only to get cast down again. Notice Rev. 12:7-9, which is about the time of the end, not about the initial revolt of Lucifer against God:
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. "

So Satan will be thrown down to the earth again, but this hasn't happened yet. The year 1914 was too long ago for this second attack on heaven by Satan and the demons. I think it will occur during the Great Tribulation just before the Second Coming. If Jehovah's Witnesses teach it happened in 1914, they are wrong. Jesus did not return secretly that year, which is what I believe they teach about what happened then.



This is an interesting topic. I did a google and found this.
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