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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/19/2005 9:45:33 AM EDT
My Western Civ professor says we live in a Liberal Democracy. I say it's a Republic. What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:47:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 9:48:26 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:50:01 AM EDT
Democracy implies control of the majority.

Seems like the minority holds this nation hostage...
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:50:54 AM EDT
How does your prof define "Liberal Democracy"? He's likely trying to make some point - what point is that?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:53:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 9:54:18 AM EDT by BuckeyeRifleman]
My poli sci prof says that the founding fathers designed the constitution with a fear of the tyranny of the majority, She also says that it is governments resposibility to help the cause of the minority.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:54:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
My poli sci prof says that the founding fathers designed the constitution with a fear of the tyranny of the majority, She also says that it is governments resposibility to defend and help the minority.



Yes, as an individual you still have your rights even if the majority doesn't agree. Whether it's firearms ownership or whatever.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:55:29 AM EDT
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I live in the Republic of Texas.



The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy.

In a pure democracy 51% beats 49%. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority.

Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.

YMMV,
Mike

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:55:47 AM EDT
On paper, it's a Republic. In practice, it's a Plutocracy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:56:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.



I guess that's probably true if we are talking about current times. Thanks.

Here is a definition of Liberal Democracy:

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where the ability of elected representatives to exercise decision making power is subject to the rule of law and moderated by a constitution which emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals and minorities (also called constitutional liberalism), and which places constraints on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised.

These rights and freedoms include the rights to due process, private ownership of property, privacy, and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion (see Qualities of liberal democracies below). In liberal democracies these rights (also known as ‘’liberal rights’’) may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights.

Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism, such that differing socio-political views are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:58:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.



I guess that's probably true if we are talking about current times. Thanks.

Here is a definition of Liberal Democracy:

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where the ability of elected representatives to exercise decision making power is subject to the rule of law and moderated by a constitution which emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals and minorities (also called constitutional liberalism), and which places constraints on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised.

These rights and freedoms include the rights to due process, private ownership of property, privacy, and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion (see Qualities of liberal democracies below). In liberal democracies these rights (also known as ‘’liberal rights’’) may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights.

Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism, such that differing socio-political views are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power.



It's not right that it came to this...it wasn't supposed to.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:58:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:


Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.






Funny you should mention that. We just finished studying him today.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:59:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.



I guess that's probably true if we are talking about current times. Thanks.

Here is a definition of Liberal Democracy:

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where the ability of elected representatives to exercise decision making power is subject to the rule of law and moderated by a constitution which emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals and minorities (also called constitutional liberalism), and which places constraints on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised.

These rights and freedoms include the rights to due process, private ownership of property, privacy, and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion (see Qualities of liberal democracies below). In liberal democracies these rights (also known as ‘’liberal rights’’) may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights.

Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism, such that differing socio-political views are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power.



It's not right that it came to this...it wasn't supposed to.



I completely agree.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:00:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.



I guess that's probably true if we are talking about current times. Thanks.

Here is a definition of Liberal Democracy:

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where the ability of elected representatives to exercise decision making power is subject to the rule of law and moderated by a constitution which emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals and minorities (also called constitutional liberalism), and which places constraints on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised.

These rights and freedoms include the rights to due process, private ownership of property, privacy, and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion (see Qualities of liberal democracies below). In liberal democracies these rights (also known as ‘’liberal rights’’) may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights.

Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism, such that differing socio-political views are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power.



Hmmm....I'm trying to see how that definition differs from that of a Republic.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:01:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.



I guess that's probably true if we are talking about current times. Thanks.

Here is a definition of Liberal Democracy:

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where the ability of elected representatives to exercise decision making power is subject to the rule of law and moderated by a constitution which emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals and minorities (also called constitutional liberalism), and which places constraints on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised.

These rights and freedoms include the rights to due process, private ownership of property, privacy, and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion (see Qualities of liberal democracies below). In liberal democracies these rights (also known as ‘’liberal rights’’) may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights.

Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism, such that differing socio-political views are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power.



Its a republic but that definition is a t ype of republic that specifically matches our form of government today.

Not all republics are the same.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:04:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
"Supposed to be/was" or "is now"?

It's supposed to be a Republic and the Founding Fathers were more like Libertarians than current day Republicans but it's a de facto liberal democracy.



I guess that's probably true if we are talking about current times. Thanks.

Here is a definition of Liberal Democracy:

Liberal democracy is a form of representative democracy where the ability of elected representatives to exercise decision making power is subject to the rule of law and moderated by a constitution which emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals and minorities (also called constitutional liberalism), and which places constraints on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised.

These rights and freedoms include the rights to due process, private ownership of property, privacy, and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion (see Qualities of liberal democracies below). In liberal democracies these rights (also known as ‘’liberal rights’’) may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights.

Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism, such that differing socio-political views are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power.



Your Western Civ Prof is an idot. The U.S. is a Constitutional Republic. A liberal democracy is nothing more than another name for a constitutional republic, one that throws in liberal feel-good phrases like "liberal rights" in place of the Founders understanding of just plain RIGHTS.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:06:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I live in the Republic of Texas.



The distinction between our Republic and a democracy is not an idle one. It has great legal significance.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy.

In a pure democracy 51% beats 49%. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority.

Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.

YMMV,
Mike




Well said Mike!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:51:37 AM EDT
Corporate oligarchy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:54:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.


As do I.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:59:43 AM EDT
Your professor is a dimwit.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:05:43 AM EDT
It is a representative republic although some of the representatives are idiots.

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:12:05 AM EDT
It was formed as a republic (representative form of government).

It has morphed into a liberal democracy with a dash of oligarchy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:51:05 AM EDT
Technically your prof. is right. However the distinction needs to be made as to whether he is talking about the U.S. or the USA, the former being a corporate entity, which incorporated under the District of Columbia organic act. The latter being the union of the several states. The U.S. is in actuality, a legislative democracy, which has exclusive jurisdiction within the FEDERAL TERRITORIES which include the District of Columbia, Guam, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, the Mariana Islands,Virgin Islands and other insular possessions.Which means they are supposed to keep their noses out of our affairs at the State level. Those aforementioned insular possessions are the areas within the 50 states, which Congress has purchased AND the Legislature of said State has ceded to the federal government.Any areas outside of those insular possessions within the 50 states are not under the lawful jurisdiction of Congress. However, whether by artifice or accident, ( I tend to believe artifice) those laws which Congress enacts for the people living within its jurisdiction, are applied to unwitting citizens of the individual states. They have gotten away with this because we have been dumbed down in our school systems and have been given a pasteurized account of history. While it can be argued that this deception started from the inception of this government is more easily proven by the Congressional record and other documents of the day that the period of reconstruction is where things were changed around and we lost our constitutionally protected rights as State citizens and became federalized citizens via the implementation of the 14th amendment whereby our rights were converted to privileges, because now, we became subject to the federal government. Because the federal government CREATED this new citizenship, It had total control of this new creation. We are looked upon as no longer being the individual state citizens, which created the federal government. We are rather now considered to be federal citizens, which were created by the federal government. It is paramount that we understand that that created can NEVER be greater than the created. As State citizens, we had a lawful control of our government and a say in its matters. As Federal citizens, we must abide by the rules, regulations and privileges, it affords us. Quite correctly, the founders considered Democracy as a "Tyranny of the Majority" also known as MOB RULE!

I would humbly suggest that you research this issue to find out what's been hidden from you for the last hundred years. One of many good web sites is www.NCRrepublic.org. The people that have established that site have done an inordinate amount of research, utilizing the Congressional record, the local papers of the day, and letters from private individuals to and from the government ,to decipher and establish incontrovertible evidence that our Republic now lies dormant, while a legislative democracy rules. Further it provides guidelines, and documentation towards restoration of the republic in each of our individual states. You would do well also to research the Buck act, the Lieber code, Parens Patriae, Operation Northwoods, Hegelian Dialectic, as well as USA the Republic that no-one lives in.

I must add the caveat here, that when I first heard this info,I thought the individuals to be complete Looney Tunes, however, having done research myself I have come to realize that there is considerable merit to this evidence. I can only suggest that as individuals you do not dismiss this information offhand. Benjamin Franklin, when asked at the Constitutional convention by a woman as to what type of government they had given us, replied "Madam, we have given you a Republic, If you can keep". We now have all but lost that Republic, and must now work to restore it.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:54:17 AM EDT
OOPS-Typo- should read.

"Madam, we have given you a Republic, If you can keep it"
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:28:13 PM EDT
republic. But just as the roman rulers of old turned rome into a dictatorial empire, so the libs are turning this great replublic into a welfare cesspool.
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