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Posted: 1/20/2006 12:22:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:32:09 PM EDT by Peak_Oil]
I posted about my girl being ready to buy a pistol, and that we saw a .380 that she liked. I got a lot of feedback that a .380 is too much gun, they kick too much, and that a .22 revolver is a better choice.

I have a Ruger MKII with a bull barrel that I'd let her shoot all day long. It's a little heavy, but she can do OK with it. If the ARFCOM opinion is that a .22 is the way to go then it's already over and she can just use this one.

My concern is that the purpose of her owning a pistol is not to punch holes in paper, it's to defend herself in my absence. We're planning on moving to a rural area and I very much want her to be able to make it happen if/when I'm gone. I know for sure that I'll be gone for at least 48 hours at a stretch. I've heard a very large number of times that a .380 is the absolute bare minimum for self defense. And of course, the other side says that shot placement is everything.

I can say for sure that Only Hits Count, so don't bother shooting something you can't hit with. Fair enough. At the same time, you need enough penetration to MAKE a vital hit, so IMO the .22 is an insufficient caliber to be worth carrying for a self-defense weapon. That said, would it be better to get some soft-shooting .38 loads for a 4" .357 mag revolver, which might absorb the recoil better?

She can sort of handle the recoil on my Glock 19 but I can tell she's uncomfortable with it. She flat-out refuses to shoot my 12 gauge anymore. I almost wonder if a pistol-grip .410 is the answer.

ETA: PLEASE VOTE BEFORE YOU READ FURTHER... THANKS
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:24:02 PM EDT
.38 special
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:24:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:33:02 PM EDT by TheRedHorseman]
anything without oil based composites on it

edit: .22lr semi
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:24:39 PM EDT
Sig P228. Small 9mm, no safety to mess with, just a decocker.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:25:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:26:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?



Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:26:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?




Im so confused right now...could someone explain please?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:27:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:30:22 PM EDT by Evil_Ed]
Dunno. We're almost at peak ammo. Try finding Winchester Q3131A anywhere. You'll see what I mean.



ETA: .380 should be just fine. It's less than a 9mil, so long as what she's shooting it out is beefy. You might want to check a full-size something, like a Sig 226 or USP in 9mm...heavier = better recoil absorption. Small and light is nice, but it won't absorb recoil well.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:27:50 PM EDT
revolver
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:29:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USGI_45:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?




Im so confused right now...could someone explain please?



TRH trolls every thread that me or Peak_Oil makes because he disagrees with our political beliefs.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:30:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By USGI_45:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?




Im so confused right now...could someone explain please?



TRH trolls every thread that me or Peak_Oil makes because he disagrees with our political unfounded completely unscientific tinfoil hat beliefs.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:31:44 PM EDT
How about a Hi-power? That was one of the first semi autos I ever shot, and was very comfortable to fire and easy to operate
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:32:21 PM EDT


.38 Special
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:34:54 PM EDT
nice 4 inch .357 with .38 loads.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:35:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
How about a Hi-power? That was one of the first semi autos I ever shot, and was very comfortable to fire and easy to operate



Not trying to be a smart-ass, but are you a 105lb girl with small hands?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:35:32 PM EDT
Have her TRY the .380 and see if it kicks too much for her.

For a first gun, try it before you buy it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:37:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:38:59 PM EDT by UberPhLuBB]
Nothing better to learn the fundamentals of gun ownership and shooting than a .22 rifle. Lever action, bolt action, autoloader, doesn't matter. Rifles are longer and make it easier for new shooters to keep track of the muzzle. Rifles help them learn breathing and stances and are more intuitively accurate than pistols, making for a better "I did it!" feeling than pistols.

That said, my first gun was a Walther P99 in .40 S&W, and I wish I didn't get it first. Breaking my flinch was difficult. My 9422 on the other hand is still one of my top 3 favorite guns. It's my dad's favorite too, whenever I take him shooting with me, that's all he ever wants to shoot (he's not a gun owner). It just hits things you want it to hit, it's a great, fun rifle. Every time I bring a new shooter to the range, I put them on the 9422 first, to learn the basics. Every one of them, after shooting .22 pistols, 9mm, .40, .40S&W, .223, 12 gauge and the rest of it always comment on how much they like the 9422 and want to shoot it more. It just makes people feel good, and that good first impression is going to make them want to come back for more.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:39:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I posted about my girl being ready to buy a pistol, and that we saw a .380 that she liked. I got a lot of feedback that a .380 is too much gun, they kick too much, and that a .22 revolver is a better choice.



.380 is too much gun? Jeepers.

.357 revolver. 4" barrel. Small enough to not be intimidating, easy enough for a novice to feel comfy with. Start her out with .38 Special "wad cutters". About the lowest power load for a .38/.357 you can get and still be accurate enough to pracitce with. Probably less kick than that .380. My Dad started all us kids on it "back in the day".

She can upgrade to the big bang magnum loads later once she catches the "gun lust". I've seen it happen. "Oh... that's not so bad. How about something that kicks more?"

Sure thing Honey... ;-)

Also, .357 158gr hollow points for emergency situations don't need much of a follow-up shot if you practice hitting center mass.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:39:43 PM EDT
Neither the .380 or .22 are stout enough to reliably do the job.

Until she gets some good practice and really knows enough to handle an auto I'ld stick with the a good .38 or .357 with .38s in it. When she has some time and rounds under her belt you can then stiffen up to heavy .38 special, +P or even .357 in a gun she is familiar with.

If you don't want to go wheel guns, than a 9mm is the least stout auto caliber to to go with.

My brother got his wife a Glock .40 but she has shot enough that it was OK for her and she knows how to not limp wrist it.

I've never shot the 40 or any other Glock, but my impression is that they aren't necessarily a good beginners gun.



Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:40:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
How about a Hi-power? That was one of the first semi autos I ever shot, and was very comfortable to fire and easy to operate



Not trying to be a smart-ass, but are you a 105lb girl with small hands?



Hey, I didn't know she was that small, but the hi-power was just my personal preference.

In any case, give her the Ruger MkII
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:42:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UberPhLuBB:
Nothing better to learn the fundamentals of gun ownership and shooting than a .22 rifle. Lever action, bolt action, autoloader, doesn't matter. Rifles are longer and make it easier for new shooters to keep track of the muzzle. Rifles help them learn breathing and stances and are more intuitively accurate than pistols, making for a better "I did it!" feeling than pistols.

That said, my first gun was a Walther P99 in .40 S&W, and I wish I didn't get it first. Breaking my flinch was difficult. My 9422 on the other hand is still one of my top 3 favorite guns. It's my dad's favorite too, whenever I take him shooting with me, that's all he ever wants to shoot (he's not a gun owner). It just hits things you want it to hit, it's a great, fun rifle. Every time I bring a new shooter to the range, I put them on the 9422 first, to learn the basics. Every one of them, after shooting .22 pistols, 9mm, .40, .40S&W, .223, 12 gauge and the rest of it always comment on how much they like the 9422 and want to shoot it more. It just makes people feel good, and that good first impression is going to make them want to come back for more.



You know what? You have sold me. Her first gun is going to be a Ruger 10/22, and we'll work up from there. I learned on a bolt-action .22 20 years ago and I'm a decent shot today because of the easy recoil and by focusing on the basics. I still like shooting a .22 and am the best with that.

Once she can ring the bell with it, we're on to a pistol of some variety.

Thanks for reminding me.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:43:31 PM EDT
She needs a "real" gun!!! Anything less than this is a waste of time:




Seriously, though........ I agree with the above posters, have her stick with the .38.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:43:58 PM EDT
It depends on her hand strength. Many women cannot manage a double action trigger pull so that leaves you with a single action trigger. For a revolver, single action means having to thumb cock between shots (yuck for a self-defense situation).

I'd recommend a full size 1911 in 9mm. The full size slide reduces felt recoil and it is single action. If her hands are small, you can get a short trigger.

BTW, my daughter shoots a full size 1911 in 45 ACP with 185 grain hollow points and a 13 lb recoil spring.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:46:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:47:16 PM EDT by UberPhLuBB]

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:

Originally Posted By UberPhLuBB:
Nothing better to learn the fundamentals of gun ownership and shooting than a .22 rifle. Lever action, bolt action, autoloader, doesn't matter. Rifles are longer and make it easier for new shooters to keep track of the muzzle. Rifles help them learn breathing and stances and are more intuitively accurate than pistols, making for a better "I did it!" feeling than pistols.

That said, my first gun was a Walther P99 in .40 S&W, and I wish I didn't get it first. Breaking my flinch was difficult. My 9422 on the other hand is still one of my top 3 favorite guns. It's my dad's favorite too, whenever I take him shooting with me, that's all he ever wants to shoot (he's not a gun owner). It just hits things you want it to hit, it's a great, fun rifle. Every time I bring a new shooter to the range, I put them on the 9422 first, to learn the basics. Every one of them, after shooting .22 pistols, 9mm, .40, .40S&W, .223, 12 gauge and the rest of it always comment on how much they like the 9422 and want to shoot it more. It just makes people feel good, and that good first impression is going to make them want to come back for more.



You know what? You have sold me. Her first gun is going to be a Ruger 10/22, and we'll work up from there. I learned on a bolt-action .22 20 years ago and I'm a decent shot today because of the easy recoil and by focusing on the basics. I still like shooting a .22 and am the best with that.

Once she can ring the bell with it, we're on to a pistol of some variety.

Thanks for reminding me.



Just remember to make her lean forward to shoot, not back! Show her she doesn't have to be afraid of the gun and get her face as far away from it as she can, that she can hunch right over it and impress all the guys at the range. A .22 rifle will help in this respect as well, because it doesn't make a whole lot of noise and hurt her cheek the first time she takes a shot.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:47:03 PM EDT
What pussy told your girlfriend that. My girlfriend (when we were dating) preferred my 1911.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:48:08 PM EDT
How about a glock 9mm. All guns are supposed to recoil.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:49:03 PM EDT
.44 mag
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:11:02 PM EDT
Peak_oil, ya may wanna post this over in the ladies' forum. SigZiggy, Sp1grrl, et all may have more "first hand" knowledge they can share (and HAVE shared) on this.

Just a suggestion.

I prefer rifles over handguns, myself, so I am of little use to you.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:23:53 PM EDT
Let me tell you what I tell my students. If not a wheel gun I think a SW99/Walther 99 is then best. The reason is it has Thin Grips that a woman can get her hands around. It has three safety items and you can carry cocked and locked. Has a long first pull in DA and has a soft frame so she can shoot it without much recoil. The white dot sights are very big and clear. My next choice is a High Power as it has thin grips too but is SA and not good for new shooters. A real small gun is an accident waiting to happen. She may shoot herself tyring to get it out. What ever she gets make real sure she gets training from a NRA Certified Instructor or send her to Blackwater. I see a lot of ass holes take newbies to the range and teach them all their bad habits. This is not good. Good luck.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:35:02 PM EDT
The new Walther P22 is a sweet little gun. If she ever outgrows it, you can always get a can for it!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:51:13 PM EDT
My wife loves my GLOCK 19. I bought her an airweight J-frame and she won't shoot it at all. I think we are going to trade it in on a G26.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 2:57:51 PM EDT
SP-101
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:37:43 PM EDT
.357 w/light 38 loads to start with. But do not buy one of the many different light weight ones being sold now, they all recoil a lot even with light 38 loads. A 4" Ruger GP-100 or S&W 686 would be a good choice.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:48:01 PM EDT
PO:

.22's are great guns to learn about shooting. Take things slowly, let her try other guns (ever see a gunowner NOT allow a pretty lady to shoot his gun?). As you teach her to shoot, remember to check the master eye......it will save headaches later.

My wife dearly loves a full-size 9mm. Low recoiling rifles (mini-14's AR's, M1 carbines) can also be very fun for anyone.

Don't overlook .22 magnum revolvers. Yes they are a compromise, but she isn't going to scare them to death.

SRM
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:58:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By USGI_45:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?




Im so confused right now...could someone explain please?



TRH trolls every thread that me or Peak_Oil makes because he disagrees with our political beliefs. wacky-ass fairy tale theories.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:19:54 PM EDT
if it's a pistol to train with, the Ruger.


That being said, if the whole point is to get a gun that she can train with and eventually use as a defensive weapon, get a .357 revolver, and use .38 target loads and work your way up to a full-house .357 JHP. stick with a 6-7 shot, 4-6" gun. Light enough so she can handle easily, yet hefty enough to absorb the recoil.

Why? There's nothing to the operation of the gun. Point and click. If the gun doesn't fire, pull the trigger again to advance to the next round in the cylinder. Malfunctions on a semi-auto require more training to clear.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:23:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 9:24:16 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By USGI_45:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
anything without oil based composites on it



you never quit, do you?




Im so confused right now...could someone explain please?



TRH trolls every thread that me or Peak_Oil makes because he disagrees with our political beliefs. wacky-ass fairy tale theories.




wacky-ass fairly tale theory or not, my belief in it caused me to invest heavily in oil last summer, the profits from which will be partially spent on guns come springtime

but let's not hijack PO's thread further.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:30:54 PM EDT
If she plans to carry it my vote goes for a Ruger SP101
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:31:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
I posted about my girl being ready to buy a pistol, and that we saw a .380 that she liked. I got a lot of feedback that a .380 is too much gun, they kick too much, and that a .22 revolver is a better choice.

I have a Ruger MKII with a bull barrel that I'd let her shoot all day long. It's a little heavy, but she can do OK with it. If the ARFCOM opinion is that a .22 is the way to go then it's already over and she can just use this one.

My concern is that the purpose of her owning a pistol is not to punch holes in paper, it's to defend herself in my absence. We're planning on moving to a rural area and I very much want her to be able to make it happen if/when I'm gone. I know for sure that I'll be gone for at least 48 hours at a stretch. I've heard a very large number of times that a .380 is the absolute bare minimum for self defense. And of course, the other side says that shot placement is everything.

I can say for sure that Only Hits Count, so don't bother shooting something you can't hit with. Fair enough. At the same time, you need enough penetration to MAKE a vital hit, so IMO the .22 is an insufficient caliber to be worth carrying for a self-defense weapon. That said, would it be better to get some soft-shooting .38 loads for a 4" .357 mag revolver, which might absorb the recoil better?

She can sort of handle the recoil on my Glock 19 but I can tell she's uncomfortable with it. She flat-out refuses to shoot my 12 gauge anymore. I almost wonder if a pistol-grip .410 is the answer.

ETA: PLEASE VOTE BEFORE YOU READ FURTHER... THANKS


You girl isn't Anti-G is she? Never mind,Anti-G wasn't even a girl. Sorry for asking .
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:32:07 PM EDT
Sig Pro 9mm. Sig quality, Glock price.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:25:55 PM EDT
As a chick I feel qualified to comment on this thread. Sometimes recoil is all in the mind, if she is not wearing ear protection it may be more the noise than the recoil.

Small cute guns are not good for novice shooters, they are actually harder to shoot and handle. For instance, my little NAA mini revolver must be taken apart to load, and is uncomfortable to shoot.

For some reason many women have a lot of difficulty with semi autos. I have friends that cannot cycle the slide on my glocks. There is also the matter of external safeties, decockers, and having to deal with the inevitable jam and failure to eject. I enjoy taking my guns apart and souping up my little 10/22's but for some reason most women aren't really mechancially inclined, I don't understand it but that's just the way it is. The object is to find something she likes to shoot, she can branch out from there once she masters a simple gun.

A smaller gun will transmit more felt recoil which may explain why she doesn't like shooting the 380, it may have more to do with the quaility of the gun, the trigger pull and all.

I would suggest a 38 special revolver. A friend of mine has one with a 4 inch barrel and the extra wt makes it a comfortable shooter. If she's not going to carry it it doesn't need to be small, that can come later. The object at first is to get her comfortable shooting a gun that is substantial enough to serve as self defense and a 38 special will be enough for that. A comfortable grip will help too, so maybe a wood grip would not be the best. A longer barrel will actually make it enjoyable to plink with. My friends gun is a .38 rossi, I've heard some bad things about them but hers is pretty nice. The person that had it before her used it for target shooting and it has some nice sights and grips on it.

Sometimes shooting a "real" gun like a 44mag will make all other guns seem better by comparison. At this point it may just make her more uncomfortable with the idea of shooting though. Every now and then I like to shoot some of my friends "cannons". It really puts things in perspective! I used to enjoy shooting my 12 guage shotgun but I'm kind of old now and have some disk problems in my neck and after all these years seem to have become a little sensitive to that kind of recoil, it just jolts my shoulder too much. Bummer, I used to really have a blast with that thing. Luckily it's not the end of the world, there are still many calibers I can comfortably shoot, it's not the end of the world if she doesn't like them either.

Just try to get her something she will enjoy shooting, once she is comfortable she may want to branch out and try other models. Those small cutsey wootsy guns don't meet that criteria, the trigger pulls frequently suck, the grips suck, and they are too complicated. My first semi auto was a tiny .25 that scraped my knuckles when I shoot it. It fit in my purse but was strickly a last ditch weapon.

Oh, and make sure and use that hearing protection. Hope this helps. If you do get her that .38 and she doesn't like it I'll be glad to take it off your hands!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:29:30 PM EDT
I forgot to mention, my friend also had one of those titanium taurus snubbies. It was very light, a great carry gun but not fun to shoot at all.

I'd really like to have one of them and I may get one with my tax refund but not for sport shooting, I have other guns for that, I'd like a nice light carry gun, I don't care much for the little keltecs.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:33:26 PM EDT
A .38 is a perfect gun for a new shooter. Easy to reload. I think everybody should learn to shoot a revolver before moving up to an auto. Look for a nice used .38 like a S&W model 10. When I shoot .38 out of my .357 I find they shoot low.
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