I responded to an email discussing the removal of "under God" from the pledge with:

"The desire to remove the phrase "Under God" from the pledge of allegiance is yet another example of the hatred that ultra left, self loathing liberals have for the United States of America. "

Then I got the following response from X:

Since it is illegal in the U.S. to ask someone what their religious affiliations are or whether or not they believe in God, I, for one, would like to know how the person or persons who originated this email calculated the 14% number. I think that this another piece of useless spam from those lame far-right wingers who are terrorizing the people of the U.S. by using the same rhetoric as the radical Islamic fundamentalists who terrorize people for not believing in the same things as they do. Their cause is acquiring POWER - nothing more, nothing less - and they use GOD as the "reason" and as the weapon. And now that G.W. has been judged to be a bungling fool, the far-right will use whatever scare tactics to keep the power they have accumulated.

When you get this crap, ask some questions before sending it on. Do you honestly believe that our heavenly Father cares a rat's ass whether or not a word or phrase is missing from a Pledge of Allegiance???? It is just that - a secular promise to identify yourself with the United States. - IT IS NOT A PRAYER!!!

I think that Christ said it best - "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you guys agree with the response from X and why or why not?

The phrase 'Under God' should stay in the pledge for at least a while longer.  I am very pro American, and very pro religion.  This country ain't perfect, but it is a lot better than whatever is second place.  However, my children have been raised without organized religion, and without belief in a god.  While this appears to have worked really well for us, I do not recommend it for most people and certainly not for the masses.  Belief in God, and what He will or won't give you as a punishment or reward, is necessary to maintain a reasonable amount of law and order.  

I was at a sold out college football game with my daughter this weekend.  When we said the pledge the guys behind us said the words 'Under God' noticeably louder than the rest.  I thought to myself that we'd have no trouble out of those guys.  Well, I was wrong they were the most foul mouthed jerks I've ever sat at a sporting event with.  They cussed at the players (on both teams), and the officials.  I still say leave it in and let my daughter's generation decide.

I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief.

Leave it as it is

Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief.

My opinion is the same.  I always wanted the origional back my parents told me about.  Since we are pagan it makes little sense to us or I guess we could just wonder what nameless god they're referring to?


If the origional one had "under god" in it, then I would see no problem leaving it with that, But it didn't for a reason.

At this point, I could care less either way. All I ask is that we don't nix the entire pledge.

Leave it the way it was written.

Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief.

+1

Quoted: Leave it the way it was written.

do you mean the way without under god or with under god?

Quoted: Leave it the way it was written.

Then you say "remove" the phrase "under God"???

Frankly, I couldn't care less.  It was added, it can be removed.  Our actions, both collective and individual are much more important than a few words repeated by children strictly because everyone else is...  

How is it hating the U.S. to not want the government to promote religion?

And I mean any religion. The government shouldn't be promoting atheism, or Buddhism, or monotheism, or anything. It should just be neutral.

And no, neutrality is not the same as atheism.

I say just get rid of the whole commie pledge, the whole concept of "pledging allegiance" is extremely un-American, not to mention it was written by a commie socialist.

Quoted: Methinks I will say the Pledge in the manner I always have...

Here's your winner.

Is it an individual pledge or a collective one?

I would much rather see some of these groups leave individual people alone and let them make their own damn decisions about what they or their children "have to" or "can't" do.

Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief.

By all means. Let's use the original salute, too.

The original poster left out the context, but if "X" actually thinks that

. . . it is illegal in the U.S. to ask someone what their religious affiliations are or whether or not they believe in God. . . .

, "X" is a flaming dumbass.

Since SCOTUS ruled long ago that you can't require a student in a public school to say the Pledge, I can't see why anybody is upset about the inclusion of "under God" in the text. If JWs can put up with the "humiliation" of remaining seated, so can the children of ACLU moonbats.

I have personally never been a big fan of the Pledge anyway. It doesn't offend me, and I do recite it, but my allegiance is to the God-given rights of free men. However far off the rails the Republic to which we pledge might go, it'll probably keep the flag, so I guess the Pledge is per se voidable and therefore meaningless.

the part where it is under god exhiles a lot of people.  If you want to add things to it that is fine, but think about all the people that just because "under god" is added it now makes no sense to and therefore pointless and a waste of time.

What does it mean exactly? I don't know.  How much power does the christian god have? I don't know what things he can or can't do or if he is fair or not.  What makes me want to pledge allegiance to him? What if I don't like that god?

Quoted: Methinks I will say the Pledge in the manner I always have.  I also think those who want it removed aren't really interested in making any kind of "pledge" to this country anyway.  Fawkem.

So those who said the original pledge without "under God" weren't patriotic?  People only suddenly became patriotic when those words were added?

I'm a resident alien and one day I will say that pledge when I become an American.  I will be pledging my allegiance (patriotism...like the name of the pledge implies) NOT a religious conviction.  Being a Deist as opposed to a Christian has no bearing on my desire to become an American and live in America (a country allowing religious freedom).

Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. By all means. Let's use the original salute, too. The original poster left out the context, but if "X" actually thinks that . . . it is illegal in the U.S. to ask someone what their religious affiliations are or whether or not they believe in God. . . . , "X" is a flaming dumbass. Since SCOTUS ruled long ago that you can't require a student in a public school to say the Pledge, I can't see why anybody is upset about the inclusion of "under God" in the text. If JWs can put up with the "humiliation" of remaining seated, so can the children of ACLU moonbats. I have personally never been a big fan of the Pledge anyway. It doesn't offend me, and I do recite it, but my allegiance is to the God-given rights of free men. However far off the rails the Republic to which we pledge might go, it'll probably keep the flag, so I guess the Pledge is per se voidable and therefore meaningless.

If the salute was changed to indicate a particular brand of religious belief then I agree.

You might have missed my point.  I don't want the original for "old time’s sake", I want it because it refers to patriotism, not religious belief.  They are two different things.

Quoted: I responded to an email discussing the removal of "under God" from the pledge with: "The desire to remove the phrase "Under God" from the pledge of allegiance is yet another example of the hatred that ultra left, self loathing liberals have for the United States of America. " Then I got the following response from X: Since it is illegal in the U.S. to ask someone what their religious affiliations are or whether or not they believe in God, I, for one, would like to know how the person or persons who originated this email calculated the 14% number. I think that this another piece of useless spam from those lame far-right wingers who are terrorizing the people of the U.S. by using the same rhetoric as the radical Islamic fundamentalists who terrorize people for not believing in the same things as they do. Their cause is acquiring POWER - nothing more, nothing less - and they use GOD as the "reason" and as the weapon. And now that G.W. has been judged to be a bungling fool, the far-right will use whatever scare tactics to keep the power they have accumulated. When you get this crap, ask some questions before sending it on. Do you honestly believe that our heavenly Father cares a rat's ass whether or not a word or phrase is missing from a Pledge of Allegiance???? It is just that - a secular promise to identify yourself with the United States. - IT IS NOT A PRAYER!!! I think that Christ said it best - "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you guys agree with the response from X and why or why not?

Not no but hell no.  Leave it in.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. By all means. Let's use the original salute, too.

The joke wasn't meant to be on you. I'm sorry I wrote it in a way that made it seem so. The original salute was an inverted (palm up) 88 straight-arm kind of thing, and I've always thought it was funny as hell.

Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. +1

Agree

Quoted: Quoted: Leave it the way it was written. Then you say "remove" the phrase "under God"??? Frankly, I couldn't care less.  It was added, it can be removed.  Our actions, both collective and individual are much more important than a few words repeated by children strictly because everyone else is...

Excellent point.

I love this country, bottom line.

However I think the fact that there is something called "The Pledge of Allegiance" is fucking stupid.

When I think about the pledge, I think this... And every morning, all the school children would stand, and look at the small flag in every room, and recite the oath that confirms their loyalty.

I know the pledge has a good message to it, but wow, it just seems like an Orwellian society.

It started out without the under god part in it, and it should be returned that way.

Why?

WE ARE NOT ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

WE ARE ONE NATION.

Quoted: I love this country, bottom line. However I think the fact that there is something called "The Pledge of Allegiance" is fucking stupid. When I think about the pledge, I think this... And every morning, all the school children would stand, and look at the small flag in every room, and recite the oath that confirms their loyalty. I know the pledge has a good message to it, but wow, it just seems like an Orwellian society. It started out without the under god part in it, and it should be returned that way. Why? WE ARE NOT ONE NATION UNDER GOD. WE ARE ONE NATION.

+1

It souldn't of been added in the first place.

I believe that our nation's Pledge of Allegiance should be left as it - un-censored to meet the whim of passing political correctness.   I belive that people who do not wish to recite any or all of the Pledge should be free to do so.

I go to weddings and funerals at places of worship outside of my faith.  I do not feel compelled to recite the prayers or psalms with others - my choice and I feel at ease with it.

We are becoming a nation where things are being dumbed-down to bow to the political demands of every (many) groups.  The Pledge of Allegiance means something to me.  Leave it alone.

CWO

If the ACLU or the People for the American way want to remove "under god", let them start a grass roots movement. Let them gain the will of the people and get our elective representatives to formally remove it. That is how it was placed there to begin with.

It won't happen, because the will of the people is to leave the pledge alone.

Using the courts to achieve what they can't leglislatively is a tactic the left has been using for years now. It needs to stop. We need less Ginsburg's; more Thomas's and Scallia's.

You know, I'm a beleiver that if they want to take Under God out of the Pledge, and In God We Trust off of currency, and if they are so hell-bent on getting God out of our American Foundation, then I want my mail on Sunday, Thanksgiving and every other federal holiday, since they all have some relevance to God.

Oh yea, and I want the banks open on all of those days as well. Let's see how Postal the USPS can go along with the people and Bank of America.

Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief.

I agree   +1.

I was raised saying the pledge 'under God'.  I believe this nation will only continue if it remains 'under God'.  I will continue to say the pledge 'under God' until the day I die nomatter what some 9th District Court of Assholes judge says or anybody else.  I will teach my children to say the pledge correctly too.

So I'll be a bit out of time when reciting the pledge with others.  So what?

Take "under God" back out and let the kiddies add whatever they want while reciting it. Under God, under Allah, under Samuel Colt...

I really don't care--I haven't recited the pledge aloud since I learned what I was saying, at age 7. I think it is bordering on criminal to force children to recite an oath that they do not, and cannot, understand. Besides, I will gladly pledge allegiance to the principles of our country and the Constitution, and will support our nation insofar as it furthers those ideals, but should our nation deviate, my allegiance does not belong to the nation.

Yes, and I want it remotely removed from my money, especially the stuff I have buried in the back yard.

I don't think it's a function of the court system, even the SC to amend the Pledge of Allegiance, since the Pledge is a non-binding, non-legal, VOLUNTARY item that is meaningful ONLY on those who CHOOSE it to be so.  IF the anti-"under God" people actually thought they had a LEGAL case they would go to court over the 'UNDER GOD'  on our money too.  They'd also attempt to have all prayer stopped in all Government offices.  I suspect the same people would also want the Muslim call to prayer allowed over loudspeakers anywhere (as with church bells).

Anxiously awaiting the answers....

Remove "under God"; return the Pledge to its original form.  

This thread needs a poll.

Prolly oughtta take out indivisible too. Sheesh.


ByteTheBullet  (-:

I think the words are true, and therefore proper. They are not unconstitutional. There is a chapter dealing with this subject in Mark Levin's book Men In Black. Very good read.

The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History






Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

   It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

   The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

   Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'

Quoted: I was raised saying the pledge 'under God'.  I believe this nation will only continue if it remains 'under God'.  I will continue to say the pledge 'under God' until the day I die nomatter what some 9th District Court of Assholes judge says or anybody else.  I will teach my children to say the pledge correctly too. So I'll be a bit out of time when reciting the pledge with others.  So what?

It is my duty as a member of the Federal Bar to respond to your mischaracterization of the Court. It's "Circuit Court of Assholes."

Quoted: The Pledge of Allegiance A Short History [...]

Thanks for posting that - interesting stuff.

Quoted: Quoted: I was raised saying the pledge 'under God'.  I believe this nation will only continue if it remains 'under God'.  I will continue to say the pledge 'under God' until the day I die nomatter what some 9th District Court of Assholes judge says or anybody else.  I will teach my children to say the pledge correctly too. So I'll be a bit out of time when reciting the pledge with others.  So what? It is my duty as a member of the Federal Bar to respond to your mischaracterization of the Court. It's "Circuit Court of Assholes."

I thaink that Kozinski would agree with that.

SBG

Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief.

In that case, lets reprint and remint all of paper money and coins, no longer swear on the bible "so help you god" for court procedings, remove all the references to god in the constitution and just pack our bags.

Quoted: Leave it the way it was written.

Yep, it should be left as it was written, by a socialist baptist minister in the 19th century:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. In that case, lets reprint and remint all of paper money and coins, no longer swear on the bible "so help you god" for court procedings, remove all the references to god in the constitution and just pack our bags.

I'd rather see our money backed by gold than by God.

lets horse trade on the issue

We keep "under God" in the pledge as long as Christians recognize it as a component of Ceremonial Deism and not an advertisement for the Christian religion.

Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. In that case, lets reprint and remint all of paper money and coins, no longer swear on the bible "so help you god" for court procedings, remove all the references to god in the constitution and just pack our bags.

1.  They change out money every so often anyway, it wouldn't be hard or any more expensive.
2.  Why swear on the bible for court procedings?  Its pointless if your not religious.
3.  There are no references to god in the constitution.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. In that case, lets reprint and remint all of paper money and coins, no longer swear on the bible "so help you god" for court procedings, remove all the references to god in the constitution and just pack our bags. 1.  They change out money every so often anyway, it wouldn't be hard or any more expensive. 2.  Why swear on the bible for court procedings?  Its pointless if your not religious. 3.  There are no references to god in the constitution.

Easier than you think. In four years as a Deputy and countless hours in court, I've never sworn on or even seen a bible in the courthouse. I even had to testify in a Federal court just last week. It was "swear or affirm" and nary a bible in sight.

It wouldn't hurt me one bit to see it taken out.

Quoted: Quoted: I prefer the original pledge without "under God".  I want it to be a pledge of allegiance (patriotism) not a pledge of religious belief. In that case, lets reprint and remint all of paper money and coins, no longer swear on the bible "so help you god" for court procedings, remove all the references to god in the constitution and just pack our bags.

I don't think we have to do that.  I think it's a good idea having a pledge of allegiance that is just that; a pledge of allegiance.  Not a pledge to a particular brand of faith.

Quoted: I was raised saying the pledge 'under God'.  I believe this nation will only continue if it remains 'under God'.  I will continue to say the pledge 'under God' until the day I die nomatter what some 9th District Court of Assholes judge says or anybody else.  I will teach my children to say the pledge correctly too. So I'll be a bit out of time when reciting the pledge with others.  So what?

I know where you are coming from, however, do you really think the phrase "under God" is the key stone that will cause America to crumble?

The pledge has completely lost any and all meaning that it ever could have had. Who even says the pledge anymore? 6 to 18 year old kids, thats about it.

And how do you take something so meaningful and twist it around and make it utterly meaningless to everyone who knows about it?

You make a kid say it every day.

I can accept either with (new) or without (old).  I am glad to see some other old-farts here though that can also remember when "under God" was not included.



ETA:...but let's leave it just for the folks in the sandbox.