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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:11:37 PM EDT
[#1]
ATFians
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:13:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Simple solution to the problem... the toy store owner needs to demand that they demonstrate live the conversion to him and fire it... ALL ON VIDEO that will not be under any control of BATFE.
Worked well for Mr. John Glover thanks to Len Savage... BWAHAHAHAHAHA.... |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:14:32 PM EDT
[#3]
A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident.
 He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:14:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Bitch
Ass Tard Fucks |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:14:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Some people...........you just can`t reach..............
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:14:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Glad our tax dollars pay for multiple monkeys to fuck multiple footballs.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:14:52 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm not anti-government.. but geez. admit when you are wrong (if they are) and give the dang toys back. Why cause more problems?
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:15:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Simple solution to the problem... the toy store owner needs to demand that they demonstrate live the conversion to him and fire it... ALL ON VIDEO that will not be under any control of BATFE. Worked well for Mr. John Glover thanks to Len Savage... BWAHAHAHAHAHA.... I'd pay to see that live. Maybe the Tacoma Dome could be booked for that. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:17:10 PM EDT
[#9]
tag
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:17:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I'm not anti-government.. I am. Everybody who works for the BATFE is a dog-fucker. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:19:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident.
He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately. What were the lowers made of? |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:19:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident.
He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately. And a drill press with a demilled parts kit can make an AK do funny things as well. Your point? |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:20:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident. He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately.   |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:23:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". 15 seconds with a dremel tool and an autosear will fit in a low-shelf AR lower. What's your point? (not directed at you so much as at your friend.....this is silly, really) |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:24:47 PM EDT
[#15]
This further highlights the complete lack of transparency and accountability of the BATFE and their testing methods, which as a government agency should be readily available to the tax paying public. We have a right to know how they interpret federal statutes and apply them as a regulatory agency.
The Federal Statutes on FOIA should provide the deadline for Agencies meeting those requests and penalties for failure to do so. Now most likely the Statute allows for "mistakes" or difficulty in obtaining records, but only to a certain point. I know for my State a FOIA request if not met within a certain period of time results in a fine to the State paid to the requesting Plaintiff in a civil claim along with court and attorney fees. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:30:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident. He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately. Did you not read the OP's post? You didn't read it all did you? It lists what the WE lowers will and will not do according to three sources. All they want to know is what ATF did to get these lowers to function with a working firearm. If it took extra-ordinary effort than they are not readily adaptable or convertible to real firearms and should not be classified as AR lowers. I think their request is more than reasonable and if it was worded as they claim the failure to provide the FOIA requested documents is entirely unreasonable. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:32:10 PM EDT
[#17]
After watching the video I kinda want one...but not for $400.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:32:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
After watching the video I kinda want one...but not for $400. If you put 3000 rounds through one it just paid for itself.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:34:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
...snip... We have a right to know how they interpret federal statutes and apply them as a regulatory agency shut down and disband those assholes. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:35:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Well Holee-shit! You mean machine guns aren't made out of fuckin' pixie dust and leprechaun dreams!
Are you fuckin' tellin' me that they're just simple mechanical devices that can be assembled by anyone with the correct parts and the bare-est smidgen of mechanical aptitude? Fuggin-A man, color me corn-fused!  So are you saying that if you have an AR, some sheet metal and a dremel you are in constructive possession of a machine gun? All you have to do is cut out a little lightning-link and pop it in there. I'll bet the freds can do it if you give 'em the parts. Sounds like it's just a cunt hair away from being a machine gun, right? Honestly if it's so straightforward, just release the FOIA request and be done with it. I never get into the "..well if you did 'this' and then did 'this' and set it up like 'so' you could make it work like a machine-gun once until it ass-ploded in your hand". Serious question: Have you ever seen a slamfire at a shooting range? Should that shooter be prosecuted for illegally possessing a machine-gun? Why not? It meets the legal definition (afaik, there is no exemption for 'machinegun by reason of malfunction'). (not picking on you ranger but this whole airsoft seizure thing sounds like a goat rodeo.) Quoted: A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident. He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:38:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: A friend of mine, and coincidentally a member here (83rdrecon) has surprising "inside information" about this particular incident. He told me, and I'll let him know of this thread, so if I get something wrong... don't shoot the messenger. These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". Now, I don't have a problem with M-16 lowers being for sale at the grocery store, but as the law is currently, it is a no go at this station. As such, they behaved appropriately. Then why would you need shims if all you needed was a little sandpaper? Remember, the walls are too thin. Dimensionally it's similar enough for a real upper to fit... but not thick enough to support a trigger pack (and I think pictures were even posted here illustrating that). So what are we sanding a little? |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:47:49 PM EDT
[#22]
I wanna see BATF make one shoot, and the process involved.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:51:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". 15 seconds with a dremel tool and an autosear will fit in a low-shelf AR lower. What's your point? (not directed at you so much as at your friend.....this is silly, really) Do these "toys" have serial numbers? an expert opinion supported by a gunsmith specializing in the AR rifle who examined another WE Tech in great detail. The gunsmith determined:
The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work. It sounds to me, by expert opinion, that any schlub could buy a "toy" spend a couple of minutes with some washers or shim stock, add a functional upper and you have just manufactured a non accountable firearm. How this is different than 80% receivers and receiver blanks I don't really know.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 8:58:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". 15 seconds with a dremel tool and an autosear will fit in a low-shelf AR lower. What's your point? (not directed at you so much as at your friend.....this is silly, really) Do these "toys" have serial numbers? and I got called out for forgetting to mention this. That was the deal. No serial number at all. What I was bitching to him about was that we all know how to make one "happy", and all those parts are available, and necessary to do this deed. The fact is, if you take one of yours, and do the deed... it is still your AR lower. with the paperwork tying it to you, or someone. With this toy, there is no paperwork. He further told me of airsoft AKs made on fully functional (mil spec) receivers. All holes drilled, and auto sear in place, but with no #s. Think about it for a minute guys: If you bought your kid some toys, and ATF came to visit and found some receivers that would work on your AR/AK with a minimum of effort, wouldn't you be delighted? |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:05:00 PM EDT
[#25]
I feel safer.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:07:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Some wacky stuff going on for certain ... but these are dangerous times and you can't be too careful.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:13:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Either A: there is more going on then is being revealed, or B: The ATF screwed up and refuses to man up.
Since the case sounds so absurd I want to say A because I find it really hard to believe that somebody at the ATF would this stupid. I fear I will be proven wrong. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:13:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Oh give me a break!
so, we can't buy unregistered M-16 lowers legally, unless they are sold as a toy? I hate it as much as you all do. I wish they were for sale in the mall. They are not. As the law is currently, you can't buy M-16 lowers. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:24:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Oh give me a break! so, we can't buy unregistered M-16 lowers legally, unless they are sold as a toy? I hate it as much as you all do. I wish they were for sale in the mall. They are not. As the law is currently, you can't buy M-16 lowers. Have you personally handled one of these toys? Have you seen one successfully converted to an actual firearm, let alone a machine gun? I have not, but have looked at very detailed pictures comparing the two side by side and can confidently say that it would be no easier (and probably more difficult) to convert one of these airsoft guns into a functioning machine gun than it would be to convert most semi-auto AR lowers. You are right, however in claiming that it is illegal to buy a newly manufactured machine gun, which is why no one sells them to civilians, including airsoft manufacturers. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:25:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Oh give me a break! so, we can't buy unregistered M-16 lowers legally, unless they are sold as a toy? I hate it as much as you all do. I wish they were for sale in the mall. They are not. As the law is currently, you can't buy M-16 lowers. I think your bud is full of shit. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:31:56 PM EDT
[#31]
I just went and sanded my RC Car and now it's a real car.
I am driving it right now! |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:32:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Either A: there is more going on then is being revealed, or B: The ATF screwed up and refuses to man up. Since the case sounds so absurd I want to say A because I find it really hard to believe that somebody at the ATF would this stupid. I fear I will be proven wrong. I'm still going with Option B. Keep in mind, the ATF didn't start it, they're just backing up OTHER JBTs. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:35:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: and I got called out for forgetting to mention this. That was the deal. No serial number at all. The fact is, if you take one of yours, and do the deed... it is still your AR lower. with the paperwork tying it to you, or someone. With this toy, there is no paperwork. Dang man......yeah if you're going to go to all the trouble and brave the waters of felonious conduct to create a machinegun, that would suck to get tripped up by that stupid serial number. Thank God the criminals don't have the technology to get rid of any identifying marks like serial numbers that might allow it to be traced. Jeez...we'd sure be in deep dooky then. But tonight we can rest safely in our beds knowing that the science of serial number obliteration and dangerous fully-automatic(ish) airsoft bb-gun assault weapons are off the street. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:36:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Oh give me a break! so, we can't buy unregistered M-16 lowers legally, unless they are sold as a toy? I hate it as much as you all do. I wish they were for sale in the mall. They are not. As the law is currently, you can't buy M-16 lowers. I think your bud is full of shit. might be. He is a fucking fed, after all. Oh, and you all get of the "sanding" kick... as I said.. it was my re-iteration of what he told me, and I am not up to s[eed on all of it. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:37:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Quoted: and I got called out for forgetting to mention this. That was the deal. No serial number at all. The fact is, if you take one of yours, and do the deed... it is still your AR lower. with the paperwork tying it to you, or someone. With this toy, there is no paperwork. Dang man......yeah if you're going to go to all the trouble and brave the waters of felonious conduct to create a machinegun, that would suck to get tripped up by that stupid serial number. Thank God the criminals don't have the technology to get rid of any identifying marks like serial numbers that might allow it to be traced. Jeez...we'd sure be in deep dooky then. But tonight we can rest safely in our beds knowing that the science of serial number obliteration and dangerous airsoft bb-guns are off the market. You , are correct, Sir! |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:37:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I just went and sanded my RC Car and now it's a real car. I am driving it right now! i fuckin cracked up!! LOL ive got an A-10 model... now what did i do with that sandpaper?? |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:39:36 PM EDT
[#37]
Where is the vid of the ATF agent claiming these things are dangerous, trying to insert the mag in backwards?
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:47:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: He further told me of airsoft AKs made on fully functional (mil spec) receivers. All holes drilled, and auto sear in place, but with no #s. Think about it for a minute guys: If you bought your kid some toys, and ATF came to visit and found some receivers that would work on your AR/AK with a minimum of effort, wouldn't you be delighted? This is the problem. The weapons are 'readily convertable' to NFA items, and thus are considered NFA items.... Further, if they are considered more-than-80% from being a non-NFA item, they have to be imported as firearms (through an FFL, on paper, with S/Ns)... These laws do not exist where most airsoft guns are made - there, in many cases, gun ownership is a no-go... So the airsoft MFGs often make their product without considering US law... In the case of these guns, they were just a tad too close to the real deal - namely, the FCG coming close to 'fitting', and the ability to take a real AR upper. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:52:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Our fuckin gooberment can't tell the difference between a toy and a regulated firearm. Just might be gettin to the time to fertilize the freedom tree.
Amazing incompetence. And these douchebags execute legal enforcement in our country. Rings something like the diiference between your ass and a hole in the ground. Unbelievable. Unfortunately, this nightmare is all to real for the poor SOB caught up in this federali bullshit. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:54:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Bitch Ass Tard Fucks Bureau of Assholes Turds and Fucksticks |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 9:55:05 PM EDT
[#41]
This whole thread it a giant pile of horse shit. If the airsofts can be converted to become a full auto lower (something that I highly doubt) that is no big deal. It is easy to convert a AR15 lower to be full auto yet they are still legal. Once again this is proof that giving a regulatory agency the power to make laws is the worst idea to ever come to this country.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:05:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: This whole thread it a giant pile of horse shit. If the airsofts can be converted to become a full auto lower (something that I highly doubt) that is no big deal. It is easy to convert a AR15 lower to be full auto yet they are still legal. Once again this is proof that giving a regulatory agency the power to make laws is the worst idea to ever come to this country. It is the fact that they can be converted to a firearm of any kind, faster than one can complete an 80% AR lower, that is the issue. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:17:31 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This whole thread it a giant pile of horse shit. If the airsofts can be converted to become a full auto lower (something that I highly doubt) that is no big deal. It is easy to convert a AR15 lower to be full auto yet they are still legal. Once again this is proof that giving a regulatory agency the power to make laws is the worst idea to ever come to this country. It is the fact that they can be converted to a firearm of any kind, faster than one can complete an 80% AR lower, that is the issue. Right, ban something that can be turned into a weapon. Makes a lot of sense.  You would have to ban everything.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:18:40 PM EDT
[#44]
So...
Who has some nice billet aluminum, a hobby cnc mill, and some 4140 we can heat treat and make an auto sear? The cad files for an AR are easily obtained. A little bit of thought and o shit we'll all have m16's. <- surprised face.
Does the world not realize that a bunch of bored self taught engineers in the early 1900's made all this stuff up as they went and with todays technology we can build a m2 in our garage? Sure it won't last for 20,000 rounds because we would be doing the same thing JMB was doing when he built the thing. Design, build, refine. For fucks sake... Wouldn't it be refreshing if a .gov agency just for once admitted when they were wrong? |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:26:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Someone please show me where ATFE sets the "80%" rule.....
Thanks |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:28:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: This whole thread it a giant pile of horse shit. If the airsofts can be converted to become a full auto lower (something that I highly doubt) that is no big deal. It is easy to convert a AR15 lower to be full auto yet they are still legal. Once again this is proof that giving a regulatory agency the power to make laws is the worst idea to ever come to this country. It is the fact that they can be converted to a firearm of any kind, faster than one can complete an 80% AR lower, that is the issue. So you have actually handled these airsoft guns and tried fitting them to your AR-15 upper, attaching a butt stock kit, LPK, and firing? Sorry. As a former airsofter (i worked in the industry as a translator in the later 90s) and having examined the new "gas blow back" airsoft guns (Western Arm's M4 specifically) that seek to mimic real steel function, that this is highly unlikely. Airsoft guns typically are dimensionally close, but not 100%, and they are being used with low pressure mechanical systems. I somehow seriously doubt that ATF's statements that these toys were easily converted into real weapons without actual evidence from an agency that is well known for stretching the truth. While the ATF is at it, they should ban dremel tools and Sawz-all blades lest someone make "bottle openers" again.
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:33:01 PM EDT
[#47]
As far as I am concerned? ATF = Morons.
And yes, I know that they have some good agents. I'm just done with them. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:33:40 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This whole thread it a giant pile of horse shit. If the airsofts can be converted to become a full auto lower (something that I highly doubt) that is no big deal. It is easy to convert a AR15 lower to be full auto yet they are still legal. Once again this is proof that giving a regulatory agency the power to make laws is the worst idea to ever come to this country. It is the fact that they can be converted to a firearm of any kind, faster than one can complete an 80% AR lower, that is the issue. No they can't. Read the article. And there is no such thing as an 80% AR lower. Not in the law. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:35:13 PM EDT
[#49]
The real story here is that the ATF is willfully denying due process by circumventing FOIA requests.
That is seriously fucked up. |
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:45:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Yeah, but you'd have to fabricate the auto sear. These things came with one.....Quoted: These toys were a cunt hair away from being M-16 lowers. As in..."Sand it a little and an LPK kit will fit". 15 seconds with a dremel tool and an autosear will fit in a low-shelf AR lower. What's your point? (not directed at you so much as at your friend.....this is silly, really) |
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