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Posted: 9/13/2004 6:16:32 PM EST
I attended the evening service tonight and learned something very interesting.

A 12-yo boy who was a student in the church's school was beaten to the point of needing to stay in intensive care, and IT HAPPENED IN THIS CHURCH! Some of you who live in the Austin area or Texas may remember the story from December of last year about two young men (teachers) who beat a Hispanic boy. THEY WERE THE PASTOR'S SONS!

I talked to that pastor tonight, and asked him point-blank about it. His response was that it was all part of the "spare the rod, spoil the child" principle from the Bible, and that his sons did not deserve the 14-year and 26-year prison sentences that they got. The men were 23 years old - twins.

Another young man I spoke to in the church said it was Satan's scheme to attack God's people.

I don't know what to make of this. I really really like the church - it's my favorite of the ones I visited so far. But facts are facts - the boy had to be in intensive care for several days. That's serious stuff. A doctor testified that the boy suffered kidney damage, and his injuries indicated he was beaten with a tree branch "hundreds of times".

What say you about this situation? Should I continue to go to this church?

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:18:16 PM EST
na na na na na na hey hey hey good bye.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:19:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
na na na na na na hey hey hey good bye.




Good bye to whom?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:19:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 6:20:49 PM EST by clean_cut]
double post
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:19:48 PM EST
you honestly have questions about whether or not you should stay?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:19:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:20:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
na na na na na na hey hey hey good bye.




Good bye to whom?



say good bye to the church. there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:21:29 PM EST
If what you say is true, run away now .... they are not following Christian values at all whatsoever. Im surprised you even have to ask, which, in turn, makes me question the validity of this story. Christians are usually attacked by the media for no reason. I think if something like this happened, the media would be all over it, nationwide front page news.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:21:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By poink:
you honestly have questions about whether or not you should stay?




I have been going there, and I can honestly say they are not like that - very kind, friendly people.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:23:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By poink:
you honestly have questions about whether or not you should stay?




I have been going there, and I can honestly say they are not like that - very kind, friendly people.



????????????? the Pastor approved of the beating ... make up your mind!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:24:37 PM EST
WTF

Sounds to me like they almost broke the "Thou shall not kill"
and they are OK with that???
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:25:09 PM EST
Real freindly. Just wait till you FUCK one of the hotties there and your ass gets stoned to death for adultury. GET OUT NOW!!!


they seem nice now, its the recruitment process. you think they get people by acting like wackos?

Get the fuck out.

I barely escaped 2 cults with my sanity.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:27:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By poink:
you honestly have questions about whether or not you should stay?




I have been going there, and I can honestly say they are not like that - very kind, friendly people.




Yeah, people that put children into intensive care and the people that support them doing it sound like very kind and friendly people.

When they burn you at the stake for buying beer on Sunday, it will be because they love you.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:28:35 PM EST
I don't think he approved of the beating as rather he was defending his sons. He never used corporal punishment in his twenty years at the church.


So far, the church is charactized thus:

A) All the women wear dresses ALWAYS (I just realized tonight I have not seen a woman in trousers yet

B) All the men wear ties and suits ALL THE TIME

C) They call eachother Brother Bill etc.

D) No woman is allowed authority over a man, even as a teacher

E) Creation in 6 days is taught

F) There is no deacon board. The pastor founded the church and is the sole leader

G) The people are fiercely loyal to the congregration. Yes, fiercely. Young men and women who go this church grew up here and marry within the church.

H) The people are fiercely loyal to the pastor. Yes, fiercely.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:29:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:31:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
I don't think he approved of the beating as rather he was defending his sons. He never used corporal punishment in his twenty years at the church.


So far, the church is charactized thus:

A) All the women wear dresses ALWAYS (I just realized tonight I have not seen a woman in trousers yet

B) All the men wear ties and suits ALL THE TIME

C) They call eachother Brother Bill etc.

D) No woman is allowed authority over a man, even as a teacher

E) Creation in 6 days is taught

F) There is no deacon board. The pastor founded the church and is the sole leader

G) The people are fiercely loyal to the congregration. Yes, fiercely. Young men and women who go this church grew up here and marry within the church.

H) The people are fiercely loyal to the pastor. Yes, fiercely.




Remember what the .gov did to another church like this one.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:32:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 6:38:01 PM EST by Planerench]
Get the real story. The father beat the kid the same week the school paddled him. If it is the one I heard about. THE FATHER BEAT THE KID AND USED THE PADDLING AT THE SCHOOL AS COVER! It may be a different school but that sounds like the one. Planerench out.

Yeah, the more I read the post the more I think it is the same situation I heard about from the Christian Law Association. The pastor's sons now face nearly life in prison for doing what the father should have done (ie, correct discipline, not beating) and the father is still free. I have only the lawyer side of the story but I guess the father has a history. We will see if the kid ever shows up damaged again after the pastor's sons are in prison. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:32:56 PM EST
Go to the ULC website, become an ordained minister and start your own goddamn church.


simple.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:33:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:33:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

What say you about this situation? Should I continue to go to this church?





Yes.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:34:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Get the real story. The father beat the kid the same week the school paddled him. If it is the one I heard about. THE FATHER BEAT THE KID AND USED THE PADDLING AT THE SCHOOL AS COVER! It may be a different school but that sounds like the one. Planerench out.




No, I did some research on the internet, and the defense attorneys said that the parents of the boy had time and opportunity to beat the boy AFTER he was disciplined at school.

There was also a civil suit, so that also makes you go HMMMM...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:35:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
I don't think he approved of the beating as rather he was defending his sons. He never used corporal punishment in his twenty years at the church.

So far, the church is charactized thus:

A) All the women wear dresses ALWAYS (I just realized tonight I have not seen a woman in trousers yet
B) All the men wear ties and suits ALL THE TIME
C) They call eachother Brother Bill etc.
D) No woman is allowed authority over a man, even as a teacher
E) Creation in 6 days is taught
F) There is no deacon board. The pastor founded the church and is the sole leader
G) The people are fiercely loyal to the congregration. Yes, fiercely. Young men and women who go this church grew up here and marry within the church.
H) The people are fiercely loyal to the pastor. Yes, fiercely.




Uh .... Clean_Cut, I hate to say it ... but you must be a few french fires short of a happy meal.

your words:
"A 12-yo boy who was a student in the church's school was beaten to the point of needing to stay in intensive care"

Pastor's words:
"His response was that it was all part of the "spare the rod, spoil the child" principle from the Bible, and that his sons did not deserve the 14-year and 26-year prison sentences"


If my son had put a 12 yr old boy in intensive care at the hospital, I WOULD NOT defend him in such a way. If you stay there, you an idiot, if you post this about that church, then defend them you are completely insane.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:35:49 PM EST
what is it with you and these cults?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:36:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 6:37:29 PM EST by DigDug]
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:36:09 PM EST
Man, get the hell away from that place. Those people are loony.

No normal church tries to have that much control over its members.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:36:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Get the real story. The father beat the kid the same week the school paddled him. If it is the one I heard about. THE FATHER BEAT THE KID AND USED THE PADDLING AT THE SCHOOL AS COVER! It may be a different school but that sounds like the one. Planerench out.




No, I did some research on the internet, and the defense attorneys said that the parents of the boy had time and opportunity to beat the boy AFTER he was disciplined at school.

There was also a civil suit, so that also makes you go HMMMM...



Well, there ya go .... I questioned whether it really happened above ....
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:36:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrsGloftoe:
What church is this?




To answer your question, here is a link to the news story.

www.news8austin.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=92160
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:38:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
I don't think he approved of the beating as rather he was defending his sons. He never used corporal punishment in his twenty years at the church.


So far, the church is charactized thus:

A) All the women wear dresses ALWAYS (I just realized tonight I have not seen a woman in trousers yet

B) All the men wear ties and suits ALL THE TIME

C) They call eachother Brother Bill etc.

D) No woman is allowed authority over a man, even as a teacher

E) Creation in 6 days is taught

F) There is no deacon board. The pastor founded the church and is the sole leader

G) The people are fiercely loyal to the congregration. Yes, fiercely. Young men and women who go this church grew up here and marry within the church.

H) The people are fiercely loyal to the pastor. Yes, fiercely.




Even before you heard of the beatings, this should have been all the red flag you need. Don't you ever read the Bible?

NMSight
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:39:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

I don't know what to make of this. I really really like the church - it's my favorite of the ones I visited so far. But facts are facts - the boy had to be in intensive care for several days. That's serious stuff. A doctor testified that the boy suffered kidney damage, and his injuries indicated he was beaten with a tree branch "hundreds of times".

What say you about this situation? Should I continue to go to this church?




You need more help than can be offered here if you can't see the light...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:39:24 PM EST
Clean Cut,

If you are honesty serious about this line of questioning, I question your understanding of Holy Scripture and your basic intelligence.

How in the world could a God who is Love POSSIBLY condone 2 grown men beating a child so severly he ends up in intensive care?

How in the world could you possible be a semi intelligent human being and even ask a question as stupid as the one you are asking? Should you leave? YES and you should make a formal, written complaint to the District Superintendent or Bishop for the Baptist church's in that area. Leadership needs to know about this and that it's being condoned, covered up, blessed whatever.

Leave this church and any Pastor like him who would condone such behavior.

I believe in spanking a disobedient child and I believe in spanking them with an instrument be it a belt or a switch rather than your own hands, BUT, BUT
beathing a child and disciplining a child are two TOTALLY different things.

Read the Bible, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to you and think for yourself man. You don't need any internet AR15.com armchair warriors to figure this one out for you.


Your thread REEKS with trolling.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:41:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Get the real story. The father beat the kid the same week the school paddled him. If it is the one I heard about. THE FATHER BEAT THE KID AND USED THE PADDLING AT THE SCHOOL AS COVER! It may be a different school but that sounds like the one. Planerench out.




No, I did some research on the internet, and the defense attorneys said that the parents of the boy had time and opportunity to beat the boy AFTER he was disciplined at school.

There was also a civil suit, so that also makes you go HMMMM...



And how does a boy beaten at school get home without some notice? The bus driver didn't notice? Other neighbors didn't notice? Planerench
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:43:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 6:46:07 PM EST by clean_cut]

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
Clean Cut,

If you are honesty serious about this line of questioning, I question your understanding of Holy Scripture and your basic intelligence.

How in the world could a God who is Love POSSIBLY condone 2 grown men beating a child so severly he ends up in intensive care?

How in the world could you possible be a semi intelligent human being and even ask a question as stupid as the one you are asking? Should you leave? YES and you should make a formal, written complaint to the District Superintendent or Bishop for the Baptist church's in that area. Leadership needs to know about this and that it's being condoned, covered up, blessed whatever.

Leave this church and any Pastor like him who would condone such behavior.

I believe in spanking a disobedient child and I believe in spanking them with an instrument be it a belt or a switch rather than your own hands, BUT, BUT
beathing a child and disciplining a child are two TOTALLY different things.

Read the Bible, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to you and think for yourself man. You don't need any internet AR15.com armchair warriors to figure this one out for you.


Your thread REEKS with trolling.




I'm very serious.

And yes, I am an intelligent, college-educated, professional person. I have made it this far in my life with some reason and analytical skills. But I want to get to the bottom of this.

There is no question the boy suffered severe physical harm. But WHO did it is the question.

The state convicted these two young men of being the sole perpetrators. The legal system also acquitted O.J. Simpson.

I will draw my conclusions, but I also present this to the intelligent members of AR15.com to see what you say about it. No knee-jerk responses please.

I was at the church tonight. I spent some time with these people. They are all decent, hard-working (on the blue-collar side) men and women like yourselves who have children they adore. There were children all over the place, and they all look healthy and happy. Something to think about.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:44:19 PM EST
I know of the Church of which you speak. The people are nice, but I wouldn't go to a church where the Pastor runs the whole thing answerable to noone. That doesn't work in secular government and it certainly doesn't work in church government. Any one man is fallible.

I don't know the whole story about the child beating thing but I suspect one or the other of the twins got a little carried away. Their biggest mistake was disciplining him w/o another adult present or at least asking the parents for permission to do so.

I would ask people who know the whole story.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:47:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
A) All the women wear dresses ALWAYS (I just realized tonight I have not seen a woman in trousers yet



Don't see any problem here.....a little 1800's but nothing wrong with displaying modesty.


B) All the men wear ties and suits ALL THE TIME


Don't see any problem here.....I couldn't handle it, but if that's your bag, go for it.


C) They call eachother Brother Bill etc.


Don't see any problem here......it's Scriptural, we are brothers and sisters inChrist.


D) No woman is allowed authority over a man, even as a teacher


Don't see any problem here......this is totally Scriptural.


E) Creation in 6 days is taught


Don't see any problem here.......it's totally Scriptural.


F) There is no deacon board. The pastor founded the church and is the sole leader


HUGE problem here, no accountability.


G) The people are fiercely loyal to the congregration. Yes, fiercely. Young men and women who go this church grew up here and marry within the church.


Don't see any problem here.....What's wrong with loyalty?


H) The people are fiercely loyal to the pastor. Yes, fiercely.


Don't see any problem here except for the fact that your Pastor has no headship, authority over him. Nothing wrong with being loyal to you Pastor though.


Dude, your whole thread just REEKS of you trolling.

You cannot possible be this stupid.....can you?

I'm calling you out.

Leave this church and find one that preaches and believes the Bible. It's not that hard.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:49:31 PM EST
Call me out if you want, but I am dead serious. I do like this congregation and was thinking about joining.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:50:59 PM EST
How loyal are they? For example if the pastor told them to take up arms against the .gov would they?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:51:36 PM EST
This organization has all the earmarks of a cult, in particular a culture of personality.

Is any of the following recognizable? ]www.factnet.org/rancho5.htm?FACTNet

Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and
domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives.

The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.

The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members
and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social
contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their
ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.


You need to get out of there now, and you need to hook up with some friends that will protect you for a while.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:53:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Call me out if you want, but I am dead serious. I do like this congregation and was thinking about joining.



There, corrected it for you. Is this church is more important than the Bible to you?

NMSight
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:57:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 6:57:51 PM EST by clean_cut]

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
How loyal are they? For example if the pastor told them to take up arms against the .gov would they?




That's a good question which I don't know the answer to. I don't know how much free thought these people have.

What's interesting is this:

Young and old alike, all say the pastor is a remarkable man who knows the Bible very well.

The young people (late teens and early twenties) do not seek to leave the church culture but instead embrace its straight-laced ways. IN AUSTIN? How did he do that?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:58:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
I'm very serious.

And yes, I am an intelligent, college-educated, professional person. I have made it this far in my life with some reason and analytical skills. But I want to get to the bottom of this.



Bottom of what? Who did it? or Why it happened?


There is no question the boy suffered severe physical harm. But WHO did it is the question.


You probably don't have to look much further than the two men who were convicted and sentenced for doing it......


The state convicted these two young men of being the sole perpetrators. The legal system also acquitted O.J. Simpson.


Not the same system and not the same thing. There was not nearly enough money involved in this case. Get it?


I will draw my conclusions, but I also present this to the intelligent members of AR15.com to see what you say about it. No knee-jerk responses please.


I smell a rat dude, you're just trolling for the host of church bashers here on the boards to give another opportunity to bash the church some more. If you are HALF as reasonable and intelligent as you claim to be the answers to your questions are staring you in the face.


I was at the church tonight. I spent some time with these people. They are all decent, hard-working (on the blue-collar side) men and women like yourselves who have children they adore. There were children all over the place, and they all look healthy and happy. Something to think about.


There were decent hard working people with children they adored all over Jim JOnes camp too and David Koresh's camp too, wanna hang around either one of those places for very long?

The root of the problem here at this church as I see it from what you've described is the Pastor has no accountability and runs the entire show himself, this should NEVER happen at ANY church. < that's a period.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 6:58:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:00:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Call me out if you want, but I am dead serious. I do like this congregation and was thinking about joining.



You are being foolish.

No accountability for the Pastor is NOTHING but trouble.

GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:00:47 PM EST
Just throwing my two cents in, but every church that I have belonged to has had a board. Like others have said, we are all human, even the pastor, and thus subject to committing sins. Without a board, there is no accountability. I would not continue to go to a church that gives it's pastor total authority.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:00:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
I'm very serious.

And yes, I am an intelligent, college-educated, professional person. I have made it this far in my life with some reason and analytical skills. But I want to get to the bottom of this.



Bottom of what? Who did it? or Why it happened?


There is no question the boy suffered severe physical harm. But WHO did it is the question.


You probably don't have to look much further than the two men who were convicted and sentenced for doing it......


The state convicted these two young men of being the sole perpetrators. The legal system also acquitted O.J. Simpson.


Not the same system and not the same thing. There was not nearly enough money involved in this case. Get it?


I will draw my conclusions, but I also present this to the intelligent members of AR15.com to see what you say about it. No knee-jerk responses please.


I smell a rat dude, you're just trolling for the host of church bashers here on the boards to give another opportunity to bash the church some more. If you are HALF as reasonable and intelligent as you claim to be the answers to your questions are staring you in the face.


I was at the church tonight. I spent some time with these people. They are all decent, hard-working (on the blue-collar side) men and women like yourselves who have children they adore. There were children all over the place, and they all look healthy and happy. Something to think about.


There were decent hard working people with children they adored all over Jim JOnes camp too and David Koresh's camp too, wanna hang around either one of those places for very long?

The root of the problem here at this church as I see it from what you've described is the Pastor has no accountability and runs the entire show himself, this should NEVER happen at ANY church. < that's a period.




I am not trying to give the church bashers on AR15.com ammunition. I am a Christian myself. I just want some objectivity.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:01:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Call me out if you want, but I am dead serious. I do like this congregation and was thinking about joining.

you're hopeless. nice knowing you.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:01:29 PM EST

As a Southern Baptist, I have to say this doesn't sound like any type of church I'm familiar with.

Keep looking. Find a church where you don't have these ominous questions.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:03:32 PM EST
Theres a really good church in Waco. A girl in our church went there while she was in college.

I'll find the name of it for you if you like.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:03:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Call me out if you want, but I am dead serious. I do like this congregation and was thinking about joining.



Dude, I'd steer clear of you!
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:03:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By poink:
you honestly have questions about whether or not you should stay?




I have been going there, and I can honestly say they are not like that - very kind, friendly people.



Yeah, except for that violent beating stuff, they're peachy keen.

Man, I can't believe you even have to ask this question.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:04:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:
No accountability for the Pastor is NOTHING but trouble.

GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.



+1

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:04:14 PM EST
Based on what you have posted and the news article you referenced, this church pegs the Creep-O-Meter. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit and don't look back.
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