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Posted: 9/14/2010 2:40:40 PM EDT

Has the lame duck session started already?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/14/reid-adds-controversial-immigration-measure-to-defense-bill/
Reid adds controversial immigration measure to defense bill
Posted: September 14th, 2010 05:55 PM ET

From CNN Congressional Producer Ted Barrett


Harry Reid said he will add the DREAM Act to a defese policy bill next week.
Washington (CNN) - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Tuesday he will add the DREAM Act, a controversial immigration measure, to a defense policy bill the Senate will take up next week.

The decision means the defense bill, which often passes with bipartisan support, will be home to two major, thorny political issues – the other being the repeal of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

Reid called the DREAM Act "really important" and said it should be passed because it provides a path to citizenship for young illegal immigrants who go to college or serve in the military. DREAM is an acronym for Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors Act.

"I know we can't do comprehensive immigration reform," Reid said at a news conference. "But those Republicans we had in the last Congress have left us."


Many Hispanic voters are angry with Democratic leaders for not doing more to pass an immigration overhaul. The decision by Reid to add the DREAM Act now could help soothe that anger.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell called Reid's decision "needlessly controversial."
The Senate will need 60 votes to take up the bill next week, and Reid said Tuesday he doesn't know if he has enough votes.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:43:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 2:47:19 PM EDT by AndrewS]
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:44:18 PM EDT
wasn't the "dream" act where illegals could go to state schools and pay in-state tuition? ie, they live in kansas, but could go to arizona state as a 'resident'.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:45:38 PM EDT
They're in "throw every piece of shit we have against the wall and lets see what sticks" mode.

It's only going to get worse as their numbers continue to slip towards election day.

Their plan is simple... "crash the country as a Constitutional Republic and rebuild the pieces of what's left as a Socialist Democracy". Anyone that tells you Democrats have another agenda is a Useful Idiot or a True Believer.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:47:06 PM EDT
fuck reid.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:49:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Airwolf:
They're in "throw every piece of shit we have against the wall and lets see what sticks" mode.

It's only going to get worse as their numbers continue to slip towards election day.

Their plan is simple... "crash the country as a Constitutional Republic and rebuild the pieces of what's left as a Socialist Democracy". Anyone that tells you Democrats have another agenda is a Useful Idiot or a True Believer.

THIS!!!!
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:49:44 PM EDT
I had a student in class once. She had one name 'that matches my social' but another name 'that I go by'.

Guess which one was an Hispanic surname and which one had a 'social' attached to it.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:50:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:55:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 2:56:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:01:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.


What part of ILLEGAL immigrant do you not understand? Both for joining the military and for becoming a Citizen there is a strong emphasis on morality. To become a citizen you are asked about any crimes you have committed, if you have broken the law (or even been detained by the police but not charged) you need to provide full details and it may result in you being deported, if you lie and later it is found out that you committed a crime and didn't disclose it you will get your citizenship revoked and you will be deported.

Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Criminals are not productive members of society, they should not become Citizens.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:02:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:05:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.


What part of ILLEGAL immigrant do you not understand? Both for joining the military and for becoming a Citizen there is a strong emphasis on morality. To become a citizen you are asked about any crimes you have committed, if you have broken the law (or even been detained by the police but not charged) you need to provide full details and it may result in you being deported, if you lie and later it is found out that you committed a crime and didn't disclose it you will get your citizenship revoked and you will be deported.

Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Criminals are not productive members of society, they should not become Citizens.


Immoral and illegal are not synonymous.

You would be pretty hard pressed to find a single person on this forum who hasn't committed a crime. As I said, it is a minor offense in the singular. The problem is the millions of people committing the same crime. It is a lot like speeding in that regard. One guy speeding isn't really a big deal. Lots of people speeding causes something like 50,000 deaths per year.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:09:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:12:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bhart89:

Has the lame duck session started already?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/14/reid-adds-controversial-immigration-measure-to-defense-bill/
Reid adds controversial immigration measure to defense bill
Posted: September 14th, 2010 05:55 PM ET

From CNN Congressional Producer Ted Barrett


Harry Reid said he will add the DREAM Act to a defese policy bill next week.
Washington (CNN) - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Tuesday he will add the DREAM Act, a controversial immigration measure, to a defense policy bill the Senate will take up next week.

The decision means the defense bill, which often passes with bipartisan support, will be home to two major, thorny political issues – the other being the repeal of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

Reid called the DREAM Act "really important" and said it should be passed because it provides a path to citizenship for young illegal immigrants who go to college or serve in the military. DREAM is an acronym for Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors Act.

"I know we can't do comprehensive immigration reform," Reid said at a news conference. "But those Republicans we had in the last Congress have left us."


Many Hispanic voters are angry with Democratic leaders for not doing more to pass an immigration overhaul. The decision by Reid to add the DREAM Act now could help soothe that anger.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell called Reid's decision "needlessly controversial."
The Senate will need 60 votes to take up the bill next week, and Reid said Tuesday he doesn't know if he has enough votes.


Mother fucker
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:14:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:21:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:21:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.


What part of ILLEGAL immigrant do you not understand? Both for joining the military and for becoming a Citizen there is a strong emphasis on morality. To become a citizen you are asked about any crimes you have committed, if you have broken the law (or even been detained by the police but not charged) you need to provide full details and it may result in you being deported, if you lie and later it is found out that you committed a crime and didn't disclose it you will get your citizenship revoked and you will be deported.

Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Criminals are not productive members of society, they should not become Citizens.


Immoral and illegal are not synonymous.

You would be pretty hard pressed to find a single person on this forum who hasn't committed a crime. As I said, it is a minor offense in the singular. The problem is the millions of people committing the same crime. It is a lot like speeding in that regard. One guy speeding isn't really a big deal. Lots of people speeding causes something like 50,000 deaths per year.

I consider tax evasion to be a serious crime.

It isn't just coming over here illegally that I have a problem with, it's the multiple number of crimes they commit in doing so.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:22:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nukldragr:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:

Has the lame duck session started already?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/14/reid-adds-controversial-immigration-measure-to-defense-bill/
Reid adds controversial immigration measure to defense bill
Posted: September 14th, 2010 05:55 PM ET

From CNN Congressional Producer Ted Barrett


Harry Reid said he will add the DREAM Act to a defese policy bill next week.
Washington (CNN) - Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Tuesday he will add the DREAM Act, a controversial immigration measure, to a defense policy bill the Senate will take up next week.

The decision means the defense bill, which often passes with bipartisan support, will be home to two major, thorny political issues – the other being the repeal of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

Reid called the DREAM Act "really important" and said it should be passed because it provides a path to citizenship for young illegal immigrants who go to college or serve in the military. DREAM is an acronym for Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors Act.

"I know we can't do comprehensive immigration reform," Reid said at a news conference. "But those Republicans we had in the last Congress have left us."


Many Hispanic voters are angry with Democratic leaders for not doing more to pass an immigration overhaul. The decision by Reid to add the DREAM Act now could help soothe that anger.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell called Reid's decision "needlessly controversial."
The Senate will need 60 votes to take up the bill next week, and Reid said Tuesday he doesn't know if he has enough votes.


Mother fucker


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:24:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:26:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Your1Savior:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.


What part of ILLEGAL immigrant do you not understand? Both for joining the military and for becoming a Citizen there is a strong emphasis on morality. To become a citizen you are asked about any crimes you have committed, if you have broken the law (or even been detained by the police but not charged) you need to provide full details and it may result in you being deported, if you lie and later it is found out that you committed a crime and didn't disclose it you will get your citizenship revoked and you will be deported.

Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Criminals are not productive members of society, they should not become Citizens.


Immoral and illegal are not synonymous.

You would be pretty hard pressed to find a single person on this forum who hasn't committed a crime. As I said, it is a minor offense in the singular. The problem is the millions of people committing the same crime. It is a lot like speeding in that regard. One guy speeding isn't really a big deal. Lots of people speeding causes something like 50,000 deaths per year.

I consider tax evasion to be a serious crime.

It isn't just coming over here illegally that I have a problem with, it's the multiple number of crimes they commit in doing so.


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:26:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?


How about the MINIMUM of 2500.00 in my money that I must give to the government to allow my wife to change her immigration status.

Those are REAL dollars, checks that I wrote.

By that alone there is over two thousand dollars in VALUE that is handed directly to a criminal.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:27:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:28:21 PM EDT



Many Hispanic voters are angry with Democratic leaders for not doing more to pass an immigration overhaul.


Really?

I take it these are illegals voting then?

Personally I find it hard to believe any legal immigrants want amnesty or the like.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:28:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG


Of course it is about a voting block. After all, this would accomplish nothing if our borders aren't secured. Our border security is more of a problem than the illegal immigrants already here. We need to fix that before we even think about addressing what to do about the folks already here.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:30:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 3:32:57 PM EDT by xwarp]
fucking awesome!

from: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/14/II/1623

8 U.S.C. § 1623 : US Code - Section 1623: Limitation on eligibility for preferential treatment of aliens not lawfully present on basis of residence for higher education benefits


sub:

(a) In general
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, an alien who is not
lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the
basis of residence within a State (or a political subdivision) for
any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of
the United States is eligible for such a benefit (in no less an
amount, duration, and scope) without regard to whether the citizen
or national is such a resident.

(b) Effective date
This section shall apply to benefits provided on or after July 1,
1998.


yep....

now, if you are broke, and your adult kid is broke, and tries to apply for federal funding, up to the age of 26, YOU as the parents, have to submit income info for the prior year, which is used to base the amount of aid to your adult child.

oh but wait, from california, (and there are other states as well), we get this, (essentially, if you are illegally here, you can qualify for state assistance):

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=edc&group=68001-69000&file=68130-68134

68130.5. Notwithstanding any other provision of law:
(a) A student, other than a nonimmigrant alien within the meaning
of paragraph (15) of subsection (a) of Section 1101 of Title 8 of the
United States Code, who meets all of the following requirements
shall be exempt from paying nonresident tuition at the California
State University and the California Community Colleges:
(1) High school attendance in California for three or more years.
(2) Graduation from a California high school or attainment of the
equivalent thereof.
(3) Registration as an entering student at, or current enrollment
at, an accredited institution of higher education in California not
earlier than the fall semester or quarter of the 2001-02 academic
year.
(4) In the case of a person without lawful immigration status, the
filing of an affidavit with the institution of higher education
stating that the student has filed an application to legalize his or
her immigration status, or will file an application as soon as he or
she is eligible to do so.




yeah....looks like a federal law preempted there.

hey expcustom, how about you exerting some of your energy lashing out at sb1070 and using that to unfuck your state, oh, almost forgot, you care more about illegal's than citizens.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:31:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG


Of course it is about a voting block. After all, this would accomplish nothing if our borders aren't secured. Our border security is more of a problem than the illegal immigrants already here. We need to fix that before we even think about addressing what to do about the folks already here.


No, we don't.

Listen to your own analogy:

If there is a fox in my henhouse, do I *really* need to think about fixing the door before I shoot the fox?

No. You solve the immediate problem, then work on its cause.

Stop subsidizing illegal immigrants. Stop encouraging them and for God's Sake stop telling those that are here illegally to 'stick around, maybe we will get that law changed, you know?'

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:32:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Your1Savior:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.


What part of ILLEGAL immigrant do you not understand? Both for joining the military and for becoming a Citizen there is a strong emphasis on morality. To become a citizen you are asked about any crimes you have committed, if you have broken the law (or even been detained by the police but not charged) you need to provide full details and it may result in you being deported, if you lie and later it is found out that you committed a crime and didn't disclose it you will get your citizenship revoked and you will be deported.

Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Criminals are not productive members of society, they should not become Citizens.


Immoral and illegal are not synonymous.

You would be pretty hard pressed to find a single person on this forum who hasn't committed a crime. As I said, it is a minor offense in the singular. The problem is the millions of people committing the same crime. It is a lot like speeding in that regard. One guy speeding isn't really a big deal. Lots of people speeding causes something like 50,000 deaths per year.

I consider tax evasion to be a serious crime.

It isn't just coming over here illegally that I have a problem with, it's the multiple number of crimes they commit in doing so.


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.

Deporting their asses back to Mehico would put a stop to it too.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:32:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?


How about the MINIMUM of 2500.00 in my money that I must give to the government to allow my wife to change her immigration status.

Those are REAL dollars, checks that I wrote.

By that alone there is over two thousand dollars in VALUE that is handed directly to a criminal.

TRG


At least the ones joining our military would be paying that. Surely you consider risking your life worth more than $2500. By getting an education and becoming productive members of society they would be paying that back over time as well. Surely that is better than remaining a leech in your eyes no?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:33:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:34:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?


How about the MINIMUM of 2500.00 in my money that I must give to the government to allow my wife to change her immigration status.

Those are REAL dollars, checks that I wrote.

By that alone there is over two thousand dollars in VALUE that is handed directly to a criminal.

TRG


At least the ones joining our military would be paying that. Surely you consider risking your life worth more than $2500. By getting an education and becoming productive members of society they would be paying that back over time as well. Surely that is better than remaining a leech in your eyes no?


Bullshit. If there were that many 'illegal immigrants' rushing to the US Army for citizenship then the barracks would look and sound like a Home Depot on Monday morning.

In reality, 99% are here illegally, working, raising a family and breaking the law.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:35:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG


Of course it is about a voting block. After all, this would accomplish nothing if our borders aren't secured. Our border security is more of a problem than the illegal immigrants already here. We need to fix that before we even think about addressing what to do about the folks already here.


No, we don't.

Listen to your own analogy:

If there is a fox in my henhouse, do I *really* need to think about fixing the door before I shoot the fox?

No. You solve the immediate problem, then work on its cause.

Stop subsidizing illegal immigrants. Stop encouraging them and for God's Sake stop telling those that are here illegally to 'stick around, maybe we will get that law changed, you know?'

TRG


You need to fix the door if there are another billion foxes waiting to get in.

They will always come when we are better off than they are. That is just the way things are. You can't just kill the chickens so you don't have to worry about the foxes. You have to build a better gate.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:35:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


I can't believe you cannot see the parallel...

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:35:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Your1Savior:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Your1Savior:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I don't have a problem with non-citizens serving in the military. I do have a problem with illegal immigrants serving though.


Meh, it is a minor offense. They were letting in worse when both wars were going hard. If they are willing to risk death in the name of our country I am all for making it their country as well. Likewise, if they are going to pay for an education(who am I kidding they will get scholarships) and become a productive member of society I have no problem with making them citizens.


What part of ILLEGAL immigrant do you not understand? Both for joining the military and for becoming a Citizen there is a strong emphasis on morality. To become a citizen you are asked about any crimes you have committed, if you have broken the law (or even been detained by the police but not charged) you need to provide full details and it may result in you being deported, if you lie and later it is found out that you committed a crime and didn't disclose it you will get your citizenship revoked and you will be deported.

Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Criminals are not productive members of society, they should not become Citizens.


Immoral and illegal are not synonymous.

You would be pretty hard pressed to find a single person on this forum who hasn't committed a crime. As I said, it is a minor offense in the singular. The problem is the millions of people committing the same crime. It is a lot like speeding in that regard. One guy speeding isn't really a big deal. Lots of people speeding causes something like 50,000 deaths per year.

I consider tax evasion to be a serious crime.

It isn't just coming over here illegally that I have a problem with, it's the multiple number of crimes they commit in doing so.


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.

Deporting their asses back to Mehico would put a stop to it too.

Not when they can just walk back.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:36:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


Financial rape. Physical rape. Looks like he's on the logic train and you're on a hand cart pumping away to catch up.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:37:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG


Of course it is about a voting block. After all, this would accomplish nothing if our borders aren't secured. Our border security is more of a problem than the illegal immigrants already here. We need to fix that before we even think about addressing what to do about the folks already here.


No, we don't.

Listen to your own analogy:

If there is a fox in my henhouse, do I *really* need to think about fixing the door before I shoot the fox?

No. You solve the immediate problem, then work on its cause.

Stop subsidizing illegal immigrants. Stop encouraging them and for God's Sake stop telling those that are here illegally to 'stick around, maybe we will get that law changed, you know?'

TRG


You need to fix the door if there are another billion foxes waiting to get in.

They will always come when we are better off than they are. That is just the way things are. You can't just kill the chickens so you don't have to worry about the foxes. You have to build a better gate.


Not true. Reduce and eliminate incentive and this problem solves itself.

I had chickens, in real life. Coyotes, owls and my own dog began killing them. I killed the coyotes, the owl, and my own dog. (true story). Then I killed the remaining chickens and boiled them.

Guess what? I no longer have a problem with coyotes, owls or dogs.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:37:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?


How about the MINIMUM of 2500.00 in my money that I must give to the government to allow my wife to change her immigration status.

Those are REAL dollars, checks that I wrote.

By that alone there is over two thousand dollars in VALUE that is handed directly to a criminal.

TRG


At least the ones joining our military would be paying that. Surely you consider risking your life worth more than $2500. By getting an education and becoming productive members of society they would be paying that back over time as well. Surely that is better than remaining a leech in your eyes no?


do you think it's a good idea to encourage criminals to join our military? I sure as shit don't. when I was naturalized there were a couple of hispanic dudes who were just back from Iraq getting naturalized as well, but you know what they were legal aliens who had enlisted.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:39:02 PM EDT
I don't understand how some people have sympathy for these people. By going to college they take a possible high paying job away from an actual citizen. By joining the military they use resources and benefits that should be going to actual citizens. They are sucking the resources away from lawful citizens. The children that are truly Americans are getting screwed by this whole deal; your children that are going to school right now will have to face increased competition for jobs and basic necessities as more of these illegals move in. I don't care what race you are.

I can't get any federal assistance besides loans because my parents make too much money and the thing that pisses me off about this whole thing is that while I still do in fact live with my parents they are NOT supporting me through college and in no way pay for my tuition.

The smart thing for me to do would be to "become a citizen" after they grant amnesty, change my race to hispanic, and get scholorships and grants, job preferance, welfare, and medical benefits for the rest of my life.

What the fuck is wrong with these people?

When did white males become such a persecuted minority based only on their skin?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:39:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?


How about the MINIMUM of 2500.00 in my money that I must give to the government to allow my wife to change her immigration status.

Those are REAL dollars, checks that I wrote.

By that alone there is over two thousand dollars in VALUE that is handed directly to a criminal.

TRG


At least the ones joining our military would be paying that. Surely you consider risking your life worth more than $2500. By getting an education and becoming productive members of society they would be paying that back over time as well. Surely that is better than remaining a leech in your eyes no?


do you think it's a good idea to encourage criminals to join our military? I sure as shit don't. when I was naturalized there were a couple of hispanic dudes who were just back from Iraq getting naturalized as well, but you know what they were legal aliens who had enlisted.


The same policy of 'Go to Jail or Join the US Army was shown to be a hugely negative influence on morale in the 1970s and 80s. Bottom line, for the military to do its job it can NOT be filled with criminals.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:43:22 PM EDT
IMMIGRATION BILLS ARE *ALWAYS* CAMPAIGN LEGISLATION!

FOR BOTH SIDES!

Since both sides know that NEITHER amnesty or border-hawk legislation can pass, they will ALWAYS bring it up right before Congressional elections, to rile up their respective party bases.

The 'lame duck' session will actually be the LAMEST of lame-duck sessions if the GOP sweep happens - they will get NOTHING done.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:46:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By machinisttx:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


Financial rape. Physical rape. Looks like he's on the logic train and you're on a hand cart pumping away to catch up.



And the military doesn't need them.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:47:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
IMMIGRATION BILLS ARE *ALWAYS* CAMPAIGN LEGISLATION!

FOR BOTH SIDES!

Since both sides know that NEITHER amnesty or border-hawk legislation can pass, they will ALWAYS bring it up right before Congressional elections, to rile up their respective party bases.

The 'lame duck' session will actually be the LAMEST of lame-duck sessions if the GOP sweep happens - they will get NOTHING done.


fuck, for once I'm hoping Dave_A is right about something.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:48:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


Financial rape. Physical rape. Looks like he's on the logic train and you're on a hand cart pumping away to catch up.


The Federal government is the one doing that, tho. Not the illegal immigrants.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:50:49 PM EDT
but commie harry is PRO GUN

derp derp derp

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:51:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG


Of course it is about a voting block. After all, this would accomplish nothing if our borders aren't secured. Our border security is more of a problem than the illegal immigrants already here. We need to fix that before we even think about addressing what to do about the folks already here.


No, we don't.

Listen to your own analogy:

If there is a fox in my henhouse, do I *really* need to think about fixing the door before I shoot the fox?

No. You solve the immediate problem, then work on its cause.

Stop subsidizing illegal immigrants. Stop encouraging them and for God's Sake stop telling those that are here illegally to 'stick around, maybe we will get that law changed, you know?'

TRG


You need to fix the door if there are another billion foxes waiting to get in.

They will always come when we are better off than they are. That is just the way things are. You can't just kill the chickens so you don't have to worry about the foxes. You have to build a better gate.


Not true. Reduce and eliminate incentive and this problem solves itself.

I had chickens, in real life. Coyotes, owls and my own dog began killing them. I killed the coyotes, the owl, and my own dog. (true story). Then I killed the remaining chickens and boiled them.

Guess what? I no longer have a problem with coyotes, owls or dogs.

TRG


Pretty much.

No social welfare to take advantage of and the illegal immigration will be limited to people who just want to come here to build a better life but don't have the time or money to go through the legal immigration process.

fwiw, I think the social welfare is a bigger separate problem, anyways. We could have zero immigration and our social welfare system would still have us on a course headed straight for the cliff's edge.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:52:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 3:54:07 PM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


Financial rape. Physical rape. Looks like he's on the logic train and you're on a hand cart pumping away to catch up.


The Federal government is the one doing that, tho. Not the illegal immigrants.


Not true. Through the abuse of the SS system, many are receiving grants, loans and scholarships under false pretenses. Not to mention the billions of dollars they have not paid in filing fees and paperwork.

How many illegal aliens? Multiply that by 2500.00

That is how much they have stolen to be here.

Then add in the loans, grants, scholarships, the 'in-state' tution paid, etc.

It is a HUGE theft of REAL money. And that is only when looking at the educational system ABOVE k-12. When you calculate the numbers of local, state and federal dollars at the k-12 level it is staggering.

Keep in mind, they are 'receiving' state money for their children's education and paying ZERO in federal and state taxes.
TRG
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 3:58:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.

edit: Oh and the removal of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is a bad idea IMO.


I have a huge fucking problem with it. I was a legal alien and now naturalized citizen. these queue jumped are taking a big shit on our laws, we are either a nation of laws or we end up as a corrupt 3rd world shit hole like most of the IAs are running from


+1

I am spending thousands of dollars to legally change my wife's immigration status. You think they are going to back and say, "Ooops, here is you money back TRG, now that we changed that pesky law and let criminals skate on the requirements, we decided that all your hardwork, forms, fingerprints, attorneys, affidavits, and CASH were really not necessary afterall."

Hell no.

There is a legal process to follow. this is NOT about immigration, this is about a VOTING BLOCK.

TRG


Of course it is about a voting block. After all, this would accomplish nothing if our borders aren't secured. Our border security is more of a problem than the illegal immigrants already here. We need to fix that before we even think about addressing what to do about the folks already here.


No, we don't.

Listen to your own analogy:

If there is a fox in my henhouse, do I *really* need to think about fixing the door before I shoot the fox?

No. You solve the immediate problem, then work on its cause.

Stop subsidizing illegal immigrants. Stop encouraging them and for God's Sake stop telling those that are here illegally to 'stick around, maybe we will get that law changed, you know?'

TRG


You need to fix the door if there are another billion foxes waiting to get in.

They will always come when we are better off than they are. That is just the way things are. You can't just kill the chickens so you don't have to worry about the foxes. You have to build a better gate.


Not true. Reduce and eliminate incentive and this problem solves itself.

I had chickens, in real life. Coyotes, owls and my own dog began killing them. I killed the coyotes, the owl, and my own dog. (true story). Then I killed the remaining chickens and boiled them.

Guess what? I no longer have a problem with coyotes, owls or dogs.

TRG



I am all for fixing the encouragements. That needs to be done as well. However, booting them out when they can and will walk right back in immediately is pointless.

And you no longer had fresh eggs. We can't boil our country and eat it.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:00:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


Financial rape. Physical rape. Looks like he's on the logic train and you're on a hand cart pumping away to catch up.


And that takes millions of people to cause. The singular act of crossing a border illegal is nowhere neat the atrocity of a single person raping another.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:00:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fourays2:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
IMMIGRATION BILLS ARE *ALWAYS* CAMPAIGN LEGISLATION!

FOR BOTH SIDES!

Since both sides know that NEITHER amnesty or border-hawk legislation can pass, they will ALWAYS bring it up right before Congressional elections, to rile up their respective party bases.

The 'lame duck' session will actually be the LAMEST of lame-duck sessions if the GOP sweep happens - they will get NOTHING done.


fuck, for once I'm hoping Dave_A is right about something.

It's a predictable pattern - other examples of campaign legislation would include gay-marriage bills... You will notice this stuff ALWAYS comes up before an election...

Why?

Because it gets the 'base' of each party excited...

In the case of immigration bills, they ALWAYS fail to become law... There are simply insufficient votes to change anything about immigration in either direction...

In the case of gay marriage, results vary, but there's no hard-and-fast impact either way, so it makes a great 'rallying initiative' to get out the voters...

The Dems are doing it in Cali this year with pot legalization... Get out the hippies to vote for Boxer.....
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:02:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:


Becoming a citizen would put a stop to those crimes. I do see where you are coming from on that now though. I suppose I have more problems with the taxman than the tax evader though.


Your argument is tantamount to telling a rape victim, "Sure, that is technically illegal, but if you just relax and enjoy it, it is really 'only' sex. What's the big deal, afterall?"

TRG


I can't believe you would equate crossing a border illegally with rape.


Financial rape. Physical rape. Looks like he's on the logic train and you're on a hand cart pumping away to catch up.


The Federal government is the one doing that, tho. Not the illegal immigrants.


Not true. Through the abuse of the SS system, many are receiving grants, loans and scholarships under false pretenses. Not to mention the billions of dollars they have not paid in filing fees and paperwork.

How many illegal aliens? Multiply that by 2500.00

That is how much they have stolen to be here.

Then add in the loans, grants, scholarships, the 'in-state' tution paid, etc.

It is a HUGE theft of REAL money. And that is only when looking at the educational system ABOVE k-12. When you calculate the numbers of local, state and federal dollars at the k-12 level it is staggering.

Keep in mind, they are 'receiving' state money for their children's education and paying ZERO in federal and state taxes.
TRG


You forget, I already consider that money stolen whether it's a US citizen who uses it or an illegal immigrant.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:02:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By Airwolf:

Originally Posted By AndrewS:
Originally Posted By MarkNH:
Originally Posted By AndrewS:
As explained I have no problem with the Act. It sucks that he is adding it to such an important bill though.



As a legal immigrant who jumped through hoops for years to gain the privilege of living in this country I have a major problem with the act. Someone in this country illegally should not be able to go to college here (without going home and applying for a temporary student visa) or join our military (displays a lack of morals and is a security risk).



I agree it would shaft the people trying to get into the country and I can see your frustration in that regard. That isn't my concern though. These people are already here. Making them productive members of society would be good for our country.

I don't see how crossing a border to get away from a third world country to better yourself is immoral. Sure, a lot of them are criminal scum but I don't see them being the ones going to college and risking their lives for our country.

It's not "immoral" it's ILLEGAL. The VERY FIRST thing they did entering this nation was an ILLEGAL ACT and we're supposed to not only look the other way but give them handouts and preferences over and above what LEGAL CITIZENS WHO FOLLOW THE RULES get.

Fuck that shit.



What handouts are part of this bill and how does this give them preference over legal citizens?


How about the MINIMUM of 2500.00 in my money that I must give to the government to allow my wife to change her immigration status.

Those are REAL dollars, checks that I wrote.

By that alone there is over two thousand dollars in VALUE that is handed directly to a criminal.

TRG


At least the ones joining our military would be paying that. Surely you consider risking your life worth more than $2500. By getting an education and becoming productive members of society they would be paying that back over time as well. Surely that is better than remaining a leech in your eyes no?


Bullshit. If there were that many 'illegal immigrants' rushing to the US Army for citizenship then the barracks would look and sound like a Home Depot on Monday morning.

In reality, 99% are here illegally, working, raising a family and breaking the law.

TRG


I don't think it is meant as a solution for all of the illegal aliens.
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