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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/11/2005 8:39:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 8:40:05 AM EDT by Merrell]
After watching the California CHP Disgrace it occured to me that there are probably reasons beyond simply manpower for bringing muscle into an area - Cal Highway Patrol officers will have no local ties or any feelings towards the cattle in NO and can act accordingly (see the tape in the above link), where when they pull that crap in their own neighborhood, word can get back to their own on just how they are acting (do they act this way at home? CA residents care to chime in?).

These people are not their friends or neighbors, and just like the Oklahoma NG (Another group for the wall of disgrace), they have NO PROBLEM stomping all over their rights.

Perhaps that is why some of the NOPD turned in their badges, rather than assault their own folks.


(Not a CA/OK bash. although CHP richly deserves some karma after that stunt, I'm sure that other agencies if sent in to California or OK would do the same thing.)


So is there some official policy (or unwritten directive) on bringing in strange troops to control the local populace?

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:39:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 9:40:45 AM EDT by A_Free_Man]
All through history it has been common for tyrants to use shock troops from outside of the area to be "controlled". This is done exactly for the reasons you think, there are no later "paybacks" to the troops and their families because they are long gone and far away. In fact, it is preferred to have troops from areas that are enemies of those to be "controlled".

They are unknown to the local populace, can't be named or identified. This anonymity emboldens the troops. Plus, you don't have any of the troops saying, Hey, don't hurt him, that's my Uncle Charlie. No troops putting bullets in officer's heads to stop the madness.

This goes back all through history, it is nothing new.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:46:36 AM EDT
Can't help with policy/directive info.

However......Russia and China use that stratagy very effectively.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:47:16 AM EDT
Remember the Hessians?
Exactly.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 9:51:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 9:53:47 AM EDT by CWO]
I know some folks like to see a conspiracy in everything - but I'll remind you that this is the greatest natural disaster in the last 99 years of American history, with loss of life of unknown numbers but clearly great. New Orleans has lost its supporting infrastructure of life supporting necessities and rule of basic law (and consitutional rights) was more completely lost than any time I can remember in my lifetime. Would you have the state and local officials NOT bring in additional law enforcement to ensure the location and survival of survivors and restoration of basic protections because someone may take it the wrong way? I think not. If you were the major of N.O. or the Governor of the state - what would you have done after the disaster?

There will be plenty of second guessing for years - and there will be plenty of blame for all levels of government. At issue here is when NO was flooded and a great disaster developed - did the officials to the right thing? Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy (as is criticism from the sidelines).

Any sworn law enforcement that engages in an unlawful act or one that violates policy should be held fully accountable for their actions. Will things be perfect? No. If you were in charge would things be perfect? No. This is a disaster of huge proportion. Look all you want for imperfection and I'm sure you will find it.

Its a huge crap sandwich and everyone is going to have to take a bite.

CWO
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:02:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CWO:
I know some folks like to see a conspiracy in everything - but I'll remind you that this is the greatest natural disaster in the last 99 years of American history, with loss of life of unknown numbers but clearly great. New Orleans has lost its supporting infrastructure of life supporting necessities and rule of basic law (and consitutional rights) was more completely lost than any time I can remember in my lifetime. Would you have the state and local officials NOT bring in additional law enforcement to ensure the location and survival of survivors and restoration of basic protections because someone may take it the wrong way? I think not. If you were the major of N.O. or the Governor of the state - what would you have done after the disaster?



Ordered looters shot on sight (just like the mayor of Johnstown did in the flood in '77 - guess what? no looting nor widespread unrest)


There will be plenty of second guessing for years - and there will be plenty of blame for all levels of government. At issue here is when NO was flooded and a great disaster developed - did the officials to the right thing? Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy (as is criticism from the sidelines).


My relatives were in NO and left Sunday. They got a few things but lost everything else. Please don't hint at lack of involvement.


Any sworn law enforcement that engages in an unlawful act or one that violates policy should be held fully accountable for their actions. Will things be perfect? No. If you were in charge would things be perfect? No. This is a disaster of huge proportion. Look all you want for imperfection and I'm sure you will find it.


You don't have to look too far when there are videos of ONG confiscating firearms from homeowners or 200+ pound guys tackling little old ladies in their own homes. You are right it is a disaster, and the disaster has nothing to do with floodwaters and everything to do with the shredding of the Constitution.


Its a huge crap sandwich and everyone is going to have to take a bite.

CWO



You are welcome to dine as you please.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:17:18 AM EDT
Maybe you have not been to a geography class lately, but the military and it's related units work to protect and defend the United States of America. This includes backwards places like the south and the keystone state.

LEO's and guardsman from the ENTIRE damned country would have had to go to the shithole of the south if these lazy, stupid and undereducated losers would have properly governed and cared for themselves. The hurricane warning from NOAA was pretty damned clear, it said,"extreme damage, flooding and loss of property and life are possible".

These lazy turds did not heed this warning and they did nothing to care for themselves. The worst happened as predicted and then THEY asked for somebody to come and save their sorry asses. The NO PD is considered the most corrupt and worthless police department in the country, they have something like a 17% solve rate for murder. They are famous for robbing tourists and taking bribes to protect drug dealers. Why would it be a suprise that 40% of them failed to show up for a hurricane?

I get to go down there in a couple of weeks for some duty. Do I want to go? Hell no. Will I go and do my job to the best of my ability? Hell yes. Why? Because it is what I like to do and get paid to do and I am pretty damn good at it.

If you do not want the gov't coming to help you,then by all means, help yourself.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:22:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lonegunman:

If you do not want the gov't coming to help you,then by all means, help yourself.



sorry, that notion has been outlawed.

one may no longer help himself - and if he chooses to, he will be forced from his own property and his own preperations.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:31:12 AM EDT
may i ask just what the 45th did to offend you...

the 45th is the OKANG..for those who dont know..
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:35:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
may i ask just what the 45th did to offend you...

the 45th is the OKANG..for those who dont know..


Didnt they take over a Church without permission?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:37:03 AM EDT
well...

i guess they needed a place to stay...

if it was a on dry ground..

i'd say they were pretty smart....

use some common sense...people...
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:46:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CWO:
I know some folks like to see a conspiracy in everything - but I'll remind you that this is the greatest natural disaster in the last 99 years of American history, with loss of life of unknown numbers but clearly great.



I believe history will prove you wrong on that. still less than 500 dead at this point. other natural disasters have killed more.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 10:53:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
may i ask just what the 45th did to offend you...

the 45th is the OKANG..for those who dont know..



um, well members of the Oklahoma National Guard seized weapons from the inhabitants of one home is kinna offensive...


Yesterday in the city’s well-to-do Lower Garden District, a neighborhood with many antebellum mansions, members of the Oklahoma National Guard seized weapons from the inhabitants of one home. Those who were armed were handcuffed and briefly detained before being let go.




(did not specify which specific unit of ONG)

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 11:14:06 AM EDT
sooner or later i'll hear the scoop on it...

i'll fill you in..the details..
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 11:26:06 AM EDT
Would be good to hear that.

Understood that they are under control of the idiot LA Governor (or mayor or whoever is driving that train wreck) but there should have been a mechanism in place for them to tell the authorities to pound salt when ordered to violate at least the 2nd and 4th Amendments.

Question: Can NG pull out of an area when ordered to commit unlawful acts by the Governor of the state to which they are sent?

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 1:30:41 PM EDT
This is truly scary to me. Not surprising, but very disturbing. Why the hell would you give up your guns in the time of disaster...

Now we know what will happen anywhere else in the country in the case of a disaster..
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 1:50:57 PM EDT
If they tried that shit here in California they would be fired and sued big time.

Furthermore, the CHP here in California are not allowed to ask for consent searches or obtain search warrants unless they are in the autho theft unit.

They don't like to get sued.

But, go to another state and they can act like asshats. Great.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 2:05:52 PM EDT
I don't think it has to do w/ the state, but the decision made by governor, president, etc.. we all know when marshall law is declared we have no Constitutional rights...
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 2:15:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By muddydog:
well...

i guess they needed a place to stay...

if it was a on dry ground..

i'd say they were pretty smart....

use some common sense...people...



I guess the 2nd 3rd and 4th Amendments don't mean shit.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:08:56 PM EDT
Heard on Fox just a few minutes ago...

(Regarding taking care of yourself)

"Some of these people remaining had hoarded food and water before the hurricane."
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:10:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Heard on Fox just a few minutes ago...

(Regarding taking care of yourself)

"Some of these people remaining had hoarded food and water before the hurricane."



Yup.

It's the gov'ts job to provide.

Personal initiative is verboten
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:26:19 PM EDT
I'm down here. We have Military in the hospital I supervise at, and Chicago, Tn, Kentucky, ect LEOS in all the little towns around NO to help. There are federal laws that allow for this in a state of emergency.
Between some of the post here and on Black Rifle I am beginning to think an even bigger % of posters are dumb, paranoid fuckers.
These guys are helping out, and we (notice, not you...you are not here)really need the help.
I'm sure this is good training for the involved departments to bring home, mostly how not to do it.
How can you expect these cops to show up under this stress and confusion and not make a few mistakes? You would know this is a huge ordeal if you were here instead of there watching us.

Perhaps that is why some of the NOPD turned in their badges, rather than assault their own folks.
That statement proves you need medication.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:29:32 PM EDT

My relatives were in NO and left Sunday. They got a few things but lost everything else. Please don't hint at lack of involvement.

Were you there???? I didn't think so, you weren't involved....you still aren't.

You don't have to look too far when there are videos of ONG confiscating firearms from homeowners or 200+ pound guys tackling little old ladies in their own homes. You are right it is a disaster, and the disaster has nothing to do with floodwaters and everything to do with the shredding of the Constitution.

I didn't see this but have read about it on every wacko board out there....If an old lady is acting funky with a gun, I'm 225# and would tackle her ass also. Post that link.[
CWO



Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:31:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By p331083:

Originally Posted By muddydog:
may i ask just what the 45th did to offend you...

the 45th is the OKANG..for those who dont know..


Didnt they take over a Church without permission?



I holed up in a church while doing relief work with my Squadron in the USAF. Do we need to go to the parking lot over it? They were happy to have us.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:33:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
I'm down here. We have Military in the hospital I supervise at, and Chicago, Tn, Kentucky, ect LEOS in all the little towns around NO to help. There are federal laws that allow for this in a state of emergency.
Between some of the post here and on Black Rifle I am beginning to think an even bigger % of posters are dumb, paranoid fuckers.
These guys are helping out, and we (notice, not you...you are not here)really need the help.
I'm sure this is good training for the involved departments to bring home, mostly how not to do it.
How can you expect these cops to show up under this stress and confusion and not make a few mistakes? You would know this is a huge ordeal if you were here instead of there watching us.




Well my relatives lived in NO and left on Sunday and lost everything (since you feel playing with colors can make your point, I'll play along except the cats and one of the cars, and are staying with other relatives in Louisiana until they decide to go to West or up here to stay with us until they get back on their feet, so you can stow the sanctimonious attitude that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow doing nothing.

Now, tell us all again about how tackling a lady in her home is just a "mistake".



Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:36:45 PM EDT



Now, tell us all again about how tackling a lady in her home is just a "mistake".






As I wrote, I didn't see the video but rest assured I'd tackle her too if she had a gun and was acting stupid.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:37:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 3:38:15 PM EDT by Merrell]

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:

My relatives were in NO and left Sunday. They got a few things but lost everything else. Please don't hint at lack of involvement.

Were you there???? I didn't think so, you weren't involved....you still aren't.



Family business is not something I am going to get into on a message board. They lost everything. We are helping. They are not taking any gov't handouts. You know what you can do with your attitude.


You don't have to look too far when there are videos of ONG confiscating firearms from homeowners or 200+ pound guys tackling little old ladies in their own homes. You are right it is a disaster, and the disaster has nothing to do with floodwaters and everything to do with the shredding of the Constitution.

I didn't see this but have read about it on every wacko board out there....If an old lady is acting funky with a gun, I'm 225# and would tackle her ass also. Post that link.






here ya go: www.ktvu.com/video/4946889/detail.html
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:48:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:
After watching the California CHP Disgrace it occured to me that there are probably reasons beyond simply manpower for bringing muscle into an area - Cal Highway Patrol officers will have no local ties or any feelings towards the cattle in NO and can act accordingly (see the tape in the above link), where when they pull that crap in their own neighborhood, word can get back to their own on just how they are acting (do they act this way at home? CA residents care to chime in?).

These people are not their friends or neighbors, and just like the Oklahoma NG (Another group for the wall of disgrace), they have NO PROBLEM stomping all over their rights.

Perhaps that is why some of the NOPD turned in their badges, rather than assault their own folks.


(Not a CA/OK bash. although CHP richly deserves some karma after that stunt, I'm sure that other agencies if sent in to California or OK would do the same thing.)


So is there some official policy (or unwritten directive) on bringing in strange troops to control the local populace?




Loved it when the reporter on the street said no one was being "dragged" out of their homes when they just finished showing a video of that very thing taking place. The elderly lady in this video and the wealthy home owners/lawyer in the other video all said they wanted to be left alone, that they were ok. The skull crackers are having a field day.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:52:03 PM EDT


I didn't see this but have read about it on every wacko board out there....If an old lady is acting funky with a gun, I'm 225# and would tackle her ass also. Post that link.





here ya go: www.ktvu.com/video/4946889/detail.html

Hmmmm, excessive? You or I don't know. Missing footage before the take down.
She greeted cops at the door with a pistol...she was taking shit about them shooting her....
Dis they ask for the pistol for everyone's safety? Did she wave it at them? Did they say "Screw you old lady, this is what we do in Kali" and take her down?
WE DO NOT KNOW.
It is convienient that it was CHP wasn't it?
Would you greet "the man" with a pistol? If you did you would hand it over, be down, or ther'd be gunfire.
If I was acop, she'd hand it over for the length of our conversation AND get it back unloaded.
Why do people think they can act even more inappropriate than usual in a crisis?
I don't have a problem with the evidence presented as far as the pistol and actions surrounding it are concerned. I do have a problem with her being made to evacuate since there has been no forced evacuation order.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:01:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:


I didn't see this but have read about it on every wacko board out there....If an old lady is acting funky with a gun, I'm 225# and would tackle her ass also. Post that link.





here ya go: www.ktvu.com/video/4946889/detail.html

Hmmmm, excessive? You or I don't know. Missing footage before the take down.
She greeted cops at the door with a pistol...she was taking shit about them shooting her....
Dis they ask for the pistol for everyone's safety? Did she wave it at them? Did they say "Screw you old lady, this is what we do in Kali" and take her down?
WE DO NOT KNOW.
It is convienient that it was CHP wasn't it?
Would you greet "the man" with a pistol? If you did you would hand it over, be down, or ther'd be gunfire.
If I was acop, she'd hand it over for the length of our conversation AND get it back unloaded.
Why do people think they can act even more inappropriate than usual in a crisis?
I don't have a problem with the evidence presented as far as the pistol and actions surrounding it are concerned. I do have a problem with her being made to evacuate since there has been no forced evacuation order.



Extensive thread discussing it here

Long & short of it is apparantly a Brit crew (ITV) has the whole deal on tape (one member has seen it and is looking for an online copy) - look, everyone appreciates the efforts of people working down there, but the actions of a few agencies (CHP & OK NG so far, others unconfirmed) are placing some very fundamental liberties at risk and setting very very bad precedents. Stay safe and watch out for the bad actors, they are really screwing things up for everyone.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:04:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:06:50 PM EDT by DVCAPI]

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:

I didn't see this but have read about it on every wacko board out there....If an old lady is acting funky with a gun, I'm 225# and would tackle her ass also. Post that link.

If I was acop, she'd hand it over for the length of our conversation AND get it back unloaded.



Then when you come to MY HOUSE you can hand over your gun and I'll give it back unloaded when our conversation in my house is over. For all I know you're like one of our local officers that pulled his pistol, took cover behind his car, and put a round through its hubcap.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:14:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:16:52 PM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:24:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DVCAPI:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:

I didn't see this but have read about it on every wacko board out there....If an old lady is acting funky with a gun, I'm 225# and would tackle her ass also. Post that link.

If I was acop, she'd hand it over for the length of our conversation AND get it back unloaded.



Then when you come to MY HOUSE you can hand over your gun and I'll give it back unloaded when our conversation in my house is over. For all I know you're like one of our local officers that pulled his pistol, took cover behind his car, and put a round through its hubcap.



I would be a civilian going to another civilians house....I wouldn't go to your house if you had a problem with guns.
Louisiana law says a ccw must tell any person who's house they are entering that they have agun before entering.
I tell the LEO I am armed if I have contact with them and it just so happen that I had a NOPD officer do the above on a traffic stop (pistol in seat) and I didn't have a problem.
YOU ARE A CIVILIAN... You cannot have my sidearm.
As a matter of fact, it just occured to me your analogy makes no sense.....

The point I'm making is everybody is getting all worked up over this "close to non"-incident.
If this was happening by order, I would actually be down there raising hell or writing the papers, .gov, NRA, ect. It's not a standing order.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:29:27 PM EDT

. This includes backwards places like the south and the keystone state.

LEO's and guardsman from the ENTIRE damned country would have had to go to the shithole of the south if these lazy, stupid and undereducated losers would have properly governed and cared for themselves.
These lazy turds did not heed this warning and they did nothing to care for themselves. The worst happened as predicted and then THEY asked for somebody to come and save their sorry asses. The NO PD is considered the most corrupt and worthless police department in the country, they have something like a 17% solve rate for murder. They are famous for robbing tourists and taking bribes to protect drug dealers. Why would it be a suprise that 40% of them failed to show up for a hurricane?


If you do not want the gov't coming to help you,then by all means, help yourself.


Screw you, shiitehook.

If you don't wish to be a part of the United States of America, just leave.

You will NOT be missed, I can assure you.

Don't want to come down here?

Great, because folks with your shiiteass attitude aren't welcome, I can assure you.

You'd likely only try to disarm some of those 'turds', and just might get you ass handed to you.

Eric The(Incensed)Hun

Being from Looserana I can't really argue with him...just remember, thousands of good people got fucked by this storm and they are the one's that aren't on TV, they are like you and me and have support systems in place and have fell back on them. The shit on TV area total embarassment to those of us here who are already pretty embarassed already. Our state is number 50....If PR was a state we'd be #51.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:35:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:39:20 PM EDT by Merrell]

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
The point I'm making is everybody is getting all worked up over this "close to non"-incident.
If this was happening by order, I would actually be down there raising hell or writing the papers, .gov, NRA, ect. It's not a standing order.



Um, there was a little 18 page thread on the orders to confiscate...


September 8, 2005
New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms as Water Recedes
By ALEX BERENSON and TIMOTHY WILLIAMS

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 8 - Waters were receding across this flood-beaten city today as police officers began confiscating weapons, including legally registered firearms, from civilians in preparation for a mass forced evacuation of the residents still living here.

No civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms, said P. Edwin Compass, the superintendent of police. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.

But that order apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property. The guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly carrying M-16's and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said he was aware of the private guards, but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.



Seizing firearms from 1 homeowner or 1 million is not the question, it is the permission of such an act which can be used as precedence that is chilling.

I don't want to hijack my own thread, as it was intended to deal specifically with the psychology behind resources from other areas, and how they are employed to perform tasks that local agencies might find objectionable.


ETA: I don't think anyone has a problem with Louisiana, rather the problem is with overzealous (and underthought) enforcement of bad edicts with questionable legal merit.

Louisiana itself has nothing to be ashamed for or embarassed about. We all know there are a hell of a lot of good people there (MS & AL too) who have been affected, and that NO's riffraff is not representative of the area as a whole.

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:42:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 4:43:20 PM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:49:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 4:56:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lonegunman:
Maybe you have not been to a geography class lately, but the military and it's related units work to protect and defend the United States of America. This includes backwards places like the south and the keystone state.


WOW!! Here's the latest word from one of the more left wing, pot smoking states in the country. Take heed!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:11:53 PM EDT
<--- going for more crayons
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