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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:25:58 AM EDT
[#1]
lowlights over on the hide has no trouble making consistent hits at 1000y with his 16" Gladius.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:29:23 AM EDT
[#2]
It would help to specify what you're wanting to shoot. Are we talking about long-range matches, medium game hunting, etc.?
With light wind, plenty of time, and 2+ moa targets, 1,000 yards should be doable. If it's a competition, somebody with a 24" barrel will definitely have an edge on you. Of course, somebody with a 24" barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor will have an even bigger edge. 
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:30:00 AM EDT
[#3]
Assuming a good optic, ammo and shooter 1k yards is doable with a 16 inch 308.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:30:08 AM EDT
[#4]
Used to shoot my little 16" 700 out to 750 with 155gr AMAX's all the time. No problem at that range being effective. Never shot it beyond that.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:30:23 AM EDT
[#5]
You'll get the same here, 6.5s are great, but short barrels don't do them any favors. The 308 is more forgiving in velocity from a short barrel it isn't going to lose as much, but the 6.5 will make better use of the velocity . Larue did some cool stuff with 16 or 14.5" barrels and really tight twist rates(1-7 I think). With good 178/175/185gn loads and a tight twist and good data past trans sonic you can hit what ever you want.
Out to 1000m, further with really good data, but you could have a "around 600m" gun with a little effort. It's a short barreled 308 gas gun, it's going to take work. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:31:29 AM EDT
[#6]
Are you going with a suppressor and want to keep OAL down?
If not, why not go with an 18"? Even if you are, go with a little longer barrel. There's nothing wrong with a 16" barrel but IMO it's a creation of the NFA vs an actual good starting point for accuracy. HTH YMMV |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:31:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
I've read that .308 is good for 1,000 yards but that seems to be with an ideal barrel length. What is the real world max range for a .308 from a 16" barrel? I googled this and found some differences of opinions, I trust the general consensus on this board more than a post from 2011 on a gun site I never heard of. Asking because I ordered an Armalite DEF 10 that should arrive tomorrow. Thanks. That isn't exactly a barrel profile for consistent long rage accuracy. With the right load, especially if you live considerably higher than sea level, keeping your bullet supersonic to 1000 can be done. What is your intended use at 1000 yards? |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:33:22 AM EDT
[#8]
This thread is relative to my interests. I just picked up a 16" Ruger American .308 that I run my 762SDN6 on and was curious about the 16" performance.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:34:02 AM EDT
[#9]
I have never done it for groups, but I can hit a 18"x24" plate at 1000 yards over and over and over.... With one of the 16" .308 guns here at the shop.
It's a 12.5 Mil hold on an H-59.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:36:27 AM EDT
[#10]
For a novice, especially at low elevation, it is a 600-800m weapon. Yes it can most certainly be effective much further out, but the tail end of the ballistic curve is such that you need a good lrf and spot on fundamentals to connect.
Be careful going by what some guys do online. You'll notice a lot of the guys shooting 1000+m with a 16" 308 are out west at pretty high elevations. It is a different story in the Coastal Carolinas and Georgia, especially with wind. You can forget it using 168gr SMK past 600-800. 175gr smk type bullet, 178 gr Hornady BTHP or AMAX, or 185gr Berger Juggs or Lapua 185gr D46 is what you'll want. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:37:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Well at work some of us can ring the target at 1225 meters at midnight using night vision with a 14.5 PredatOBR
so at least that far.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:38:29 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For a novice, especially at low elevation, it is a 600-800m weapon. Yes it can most certainly be effective much further out, but the tail end of the ballistic curve is such that you need a good lrf and spot on fundamentals to connect. Be careful going by what some guys do online. You'll notice a lot of the guys shooting 1000+m with a 16" 308 are out west at pretty high elevations. It is a different story in the Coastal Carolinas and Georgia, especially with wind. You can forget it using 168gr SMK past 600-800. 175gr smk type bullet, 178 gr Hornady BTHP or AMAX, or 185gr Berger Juggs or Lapua 185gr D46 is what you'll want. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:41:15 AM EDT
[#13]
IIRC FN says 800 yards for the SCAR
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:42:24 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you going with a suppressor and want to keep OAL down? If not, why not go with an 18"? Even if you are, go with a little longer barrel. There's nothing wrong with a 16" barrel but IMO it's a creation of the NFA vs an actual good starting point for accuracy. HTH YMMV 2" is like 52 FPS difference, not large enough to matter. Barrel Length does not equal accuracy. is there a difference between 16" and 24" oh hell yes. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:42:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For a novice, especially at low elevation, it is a 600-800m weapon. Yes it can most certainly be effective much further out, but the tail end of the ballistic curve is such that you need a good lrf and spot on fundamentals to connect. Be careful going by what some guys do online. You'll notice a lot of the guys shooting 1000+m with a 16" 308 are out west at pretty high elevations. It is a different story in the Coastal Carolinas and Georgia, especially with wind. You can forget it using 168gr SMK past 600-800. 175gr smk type bullet, 178 gr Hornady BTHP or AMAX, or 185gr Berger Juggs or Lapua 185gr D46 is what you'll want. This is really good advice. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:44:40 AM EDT
[#16]
First you need to run the ballistics on the load you are using in your gun and find at what difference the bullet will transition below the speed of sound. When this occurs there is a lot of disruption in its flight characteristics and thus your accuracy will most likely become very questionable past that point. That will pretty much determine you maximum effective range. My gun is a 16" barrel to minimize overall length suppressed and I only have access to a 600 yrd range without going out of my way.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:45:21 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2" is like 52 FPS difference, not large enough to matter. Barrel Length does not equal accuracy. is there a difference between 16" and 24" oh hell yes. I'm just making the statement that if he's going for shorter OAL for suppressor use, 16" isn't really a good gold standard. Personally, I wouldn't go less than 18", but I don't plan to be busting brush with my .308 AR anytime soon... OAL will probably be closer to 28" with the can on. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:45:44 AM EDT
[#18]
I have a 16" Rem700 in 308 and a 14.5" 308 gas gun - I have shot both to 1k, both suppressed and unsuppressed. ~16" isn't optimal length to go to that distance, but it will do it. Knowing your gun, ammo and skill set is more important, IMO.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:46:31 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC FN says 800 yards for the SCAR I've shot my SCAR out to 1k before. 800 is definitely the limit of easy hits (for me) with a 16" barrel, but 1K is plenty doable. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:46:38 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2" is like 52 FPS difference, not large enough to matter. Barrel Length does not equal accuracy. is there a difference between 16" and 24" oh hell yes. This, the last time I had the chronograph out there was all of about 64fps on average difference between a 16.5 and 18" barreled. 308 using the same loads, which is essentially not even noticeable. Hell just minor variations in the reloading process or even between factory ammunition could have an effect on that. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:47:35 AM EDT
[#21]
The usable range depends on the bullet, how fast you start it, the vertical dispersion of you and the rifle, and the wind.
Control what you can. Minimize the effect of what you can't control. I am baffled by the run to .308 Win rifles with 16 inch barrels. I can almost assembling an AR with the lowest weight and best balance possible for some reason, but these heavy barrel guns border on dumb, no matter how well they shoot off a rest. A bipod is a rest. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:49:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just making the statement that if he's going for shorter OAL for suppressor use, 16" isn't really a good gold standard. Personally, I wouldn't go less than 18", but I don't plan to be busting brush with my .308 AR anytime soon... OAL will probably be closer to 28" with the can on. By the time you add a muzzle device on a 16" for the can you are at or over 18" anyways. I love my 16" remington 700. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 11:59:55 AM EDT
[#23]
Twist rate is a bigger factor if you are looking at reaching through the transsonic range.
Tighter twists with high BC and good projectile balance will help prevent gyroscopic decay better than muzzle velocity. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:01:56 PM EDT
[#24]
308 gets iffy when it goes transonic. Best thing to do is get velocity data and calculate based on the cartidge you intend to shoot. That'll get you close.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:03:43 PM EDT
[#25]
TFW 26"
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:08:30 PM EDT
[#26]
I have shot my 16's out to 7-800m a number of times here in the lowlands of AL (shot 5.56 at similar distances on almost all the same occasions with 77 gr). 1k would be pushing trans sonic with my handloads I believe (175 smk). Its pretty much a rainbow and not great in the wind -- especially any kind of variable wind. In the high desert on a calm day, I'm sure 1k would not be an issue. My 24" gets a couple of hundred feet of extra velocity that can take it that extra distance here (I think its trans sonic at may 11-1200 but don't have strelok handy), but I've never had the chance to shoot that far.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:11:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you going with a suppressor and want to keep OAL down? If not, why not go with an 18"? Even if you are, go with a little longer barrel. There's nothing wrong with a 16" barrel but IMO it's a creation of the NFA vs an actual good starting point for accuracy. HTH YMMV 16" is just what the DEF 10 comes with. I've never owned a .308 AR and really like the Armalite. It's just for shooting at paper, maybe a hog hunt. I know there's a lot of variables to consider, I'm just wondering what the max lethal range generally speaking is. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:12:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For a novice, especially at low elevation, it is a 600-800m weapon. Yes it can most certainly be effective much further out, but the tail end of the ballistic curve is such that you need a good lrf and spot on fundamentals to connect. Be careful going by what some guys do online. You'll notice a lot of the guys shooting 1000+m with a 16" 308 are out west at pretty high elevations. It is a different story in the Coastal Carolinas and Georgia, especially with wind. You can forget it using 168gr SMK past 600-800. 175gr smk type bullet, 178 gr Hornady BTHP or AMAX, or 185gr Berger Juggs or Lapua 185gr D46 is what you'll want. I would say this is mostly right to potentially conservative. If you have someone with experience with you, I think could could push 800 fairly easily in good conditions, but the wind is a fickle lady and will bring your realistic max range in quite a bit if it kicks up to 15+. I have been at classes and helped new shooters get fairly consistent hits with short 308s and even 223s at 4" sporting clays at about 700m before, but I will be the first to tell you we had a good spot with minimal wind (a lot of times even being able to hold dead on). |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:13:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
16" is just what the DEF 10 comes with. I've never owned a .308 AR and really like the Armalite. It's just for shooting at paper, maybe a hog hunt. I know there's a lot of variables to consider, I'm just wondering what the max lethal range generally speaking is. Oh, gotcha. For some reason I thought you were home-brewing. It makes sense if that's what the rifle comes with 
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:13:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Assuming a good optic, ammo and shooter 1k yards is doable with a 16 inch 308. This. Seen it. Done it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:15:34 PM EDT
[#31]
I'm getting from the comments that it's at least a 600 yard gun. Am I interpreting correctly? 600 yards is very acceptable to me
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:16:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Farther than my eyes can see
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:17:52 PM EDT
[#33]
I personally use both a Wilson Combat 16" 308 and an HK MR762 16".
Both shoot out to 1000yds on IPSC steel with 178gr Hornady ELD-X. The ELD-X removed .5mil drop for me over SMK HPBT. I will say the Armalite I have is NOT as accurate as either of the above guns. One of my friends has a Wilson Combat 14.5" 308 and he gets some great groups at 600yds, don't think he's shot past that as it's a hunting gun for him. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:19:50 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:26:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Effective range is easy to figure. Provide starting velocity, bullet weight, and ballistic coefficient (specify which "G" you use), and the point at which the bullet becomes transonic is about your max useful range. With normal ammo, my guess is around 800 yards....give or take depending on the numbers used for the math. Environmental, and atmospheric factors like density altitude matter too....a lot.
Take the time to do the math, as guessing is for amateurs. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:27:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
For a novice, especially at low elevation, it is a 600-800m weapon. Yes it can most certainly be effective much further out, but the tail end of the ballistic curve is such that you need a good lrf and spot on fundamentals to connect. Be careful going by what some guys do online. You'll notice a lot of the guys shooting 1000+m with a 16" 308 are out west at pretty high elevations. It is a different story in the Coastal Carolinas and Georgia, especially with wind. You can forget it using 168gr SMK past 600-800. 175gr smk type bullet, 178 gr Hornady BTHP or AMAX, or 185gr Berger Juggs or Lapua 185gr D46 is what you'll want. I don't find that. I am shooting at 107ft (East Texas), and the 168s make it just fine on 43gr Varget, supersonic until 1070 or something like that. Wind does affect them a ton though. 175s work great, and as I posted earlier, the 178gr ELD-X are amazing and have a full half a mil less drop for me at 1000yds than 175 SMK. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:28:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Assuming a good optic, ammo and shooter 1k yards is doable with a 16 inch 308. Assuming a good optic, ammo and shooter 1k yards is doable with a 16 inch 308. The big factor^ |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:30:18 PM EDT
[#38]
I know personally a few fellows who will tell you .308 is quite deadly at 1K distance against two legged creatures. I know a select smaller few of guys who have taken shots with .308 past 1K with successful hits. Would I do it against something I am hunting probably not because the last thing I want to do is wound an animal that I am killing for food.
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:33:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Twist rate is a bigger factor if you are looking at reaching through the transsonic range. Tighter twists with high BC and good projectile balance will help prevent gyroscopic decay better than muzzle velocity. This too. At a minimum I would go with a 1:10. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:36:16 PM EDT
[#40]
it really depends, overall I think its an solid 800 yard cartridge,
you can you take a surgeon or GA precision bolt gun and get reliable hits at 1000+ of course, but those generally have heavy cut rifled barrels, match chambers and a great trigger, they can be loaded a little hotter. this plus bolt guns just being more inherently accurate lead to better results further now take a gas gun with lighter barrel profile barrel, and limit it to factory ammo and its not going to be as effective as far out there was an article a few years back about the Marine Corps want to switch to a magnum for their bolt guns and the main argument that was made against adoption was that they were having difficulty maintaining a 50% hit rate past 800 yards. until they can address those marksmanship issues a magnum is not going to help. now your average ARFCOMer is going to be far more proficient at shooting long range than your average school trained, active duty 0317, and have far better gear than hand built M40's from the PWS, toped with S&B glass, so of course, results here are going to be a little different. I hear it on pretty good authority from a 3 time LCpl that m40 barrels are actually old 240 barrels. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:36:32 PM EDT
[#41]
I can hit a silhouette target @ 750 with my Aero/DPMS AR-10 pretty reliably with anything better than mil surp type ammo 168-180 gr.
Nikon m-223 3-12x42, using the Spot On App for dialing. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:40:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm getting from the comments that it's at least a 600 yard gun. Am I interpreting correctly? 600 yards is very acceptable to me When I say 600 I mean a decent rifleman with decent optics can get consistent hits 8-10/10 at 600 yds/m from field shooting positions at sea level. Of course at 5k feet elevation things are different. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:44:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't find that. I am shooting at 107ft (East Texas), and the 168s make it just fine on 43gr Varget, supersonic until 1070 or something like that. Wind does affect them a ton though. 175s work great, and as I posted earlier, the 178gr ELD-X are amazing and have a full half a mil less drop for me at 1000yds than 175 SMK. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For a novice, especially at low elevation, it is a 600-800m weapon. Yes it can most certainly be effective much further out, but the tail end of the ballistic curve is such that you need a good lrf and spot on fundamentals to connect. Be careful going by what some guys do online. You'll notice a lot of the guys shooting 1000+m with a 16" 308 are out west at pretty high elevations. It is a different story in the Coastal Carolinas and Georgia, especially with wind. You can forget it using 168gr SMK past 600-800. 175gr smk type bullet, 178 gr Hornady BTHP or AMAX, or 185gr Berger Juggs or Lapua 185gr D46 is what you'll want. I don't find that. I am shooting at 107ft (East Texas), and the 168s make it just fine on 43gr Varget, supersonic until 1070 or something like that. Wind does affect them a ton though. 175s work great, and as I posted earlier, the 178gr ELD-X are amazing and have a full half a mil less drop for me at 1000yds than 175 SMK. Great for you but I can also take you today to a spot I shoot in GA where 168gr FGMM will lose it at 800 yds. I've been to LR matches where they all but ban the 168gr smk. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:46:44 PM EDT
[#44]
I think the question is missing a key element.
Effective at what? Getting there and poking a hole in paper? Getting there and taking down an xyz sized animal? Getting there and punching through ABC barrier and putting a hole in a human? |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:48:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the question is missing a key element. Effective at what? Getting there and poking a hole in paper? Getting there and taking down an xyz sized animal? Getting there and punching through ABC barrier and putting a hole in a human? Another great point. Some folks poo-poo the magnums like a 338lm, saying you can't shoot 1800 yds around here. Maybe not, maybe I want the 338 for what it f@cks up at 1000 & under. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:52:17 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:54:25 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:56:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Has a lot to do with Load data and barrel length if you are staying under 800 yds.
you lose a lot of velocity with a short barrel I would say 750 is probably about max potential for a 16 inch barrel. |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:57:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryI disagree my 175 TMK's are going transonic just past 1200 yds |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 12:59:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree my 175 TMK's are going transonic just past 1200 yds how hard are you pushing them through a 16 barrel |
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