Real shoot or no shoot Question

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Real shoot or no shoot Question

Posted: 5/30/2002 6:57:26 PM EDT

I was walking home the other day and witnessed on guy getting beat up by several late teen early 20's. I didn't know any of them but this guy was really getting the crap kicked out of him. I didn't have my pistol on me so I didn't have to make the decision.
Things to think about:
A man was beaten to death less than a month ago by a kid with a skate board within a block of where I was
A cop had to shoot a guy who was holding a gun to another guy's head about 3 months ago on the same street.
The guy was on the ground getting kicked by the three other guys
This was within 5 blocks of my way too liberal college

Lets hear what you think I don't know what I would have done. I think I would have tried to stop the fight without drawing and only drawn if the SHTF. This is where I wish I had some pepper spray.

Posted: 5/30/2002 7:20:10 PM EDT

[#1]

So you could piss them off and they could kick [i]your[/i] ass?

Did you dial 911? Like Imbrog|io says, that's what you're supposed to do.

Posted: 5/30/2002 8:07:07 PM EDT

[#2]

The cops had already been called. Like I said I didn't do anything but if I had been carrying I would have had a means to stop any attack against myself. My consern would be if my first action was to draw I may have difficulty deffending my action in court. I really don't want to go to jail for being a good guy.

Posted: 5/30/2002 8:16:09 PM EDT

[#3]

me...
i am not a sheep dog.
if the wolves want to kill and eat sheep who am i to stop them.

most predators including humans know better than to attack an animal that appears more dangerous than themselves. they will continue to prey on those who look weak and helpless.

Posted: 5/30/2002 8:38:44 PM EDT

[#4]

Gun or no, I probably would have stepped in. In my case, it's probably moot, I'm always packin' I would have gotten involved......

Posted: 5/30/2002 8:44:11 PM EDT

[#5]

I assume that you are not a police officer.

Why don't you consult the law?

Posted: 5/30/2002 8:51:04 PM EDT

[#6]

If all of that was happening in my neighborhood.... I'd move.
Steve

Posted: 5/30/2002 8:52:39 PM EDT

[#7]

If the guy on the ground didn't take the neccessary precautions to avoid the situation, then why should your risk yourself for his sake?

Besides, how do you know that he didn't deserve it?

Posted: 5/30/2002 9:55:46 PM EDT

[#8]

If the guy was on the ground, surrounded and being kicked, he very well could be killed.

For you to 'step in', to attempt to discourage them from further injury to the guy is justified.

'step in' to what degree is what we are concerned with though.

'Step in' could mean:

A: A verbal confrontation. "Hey, stop that! I've called the cops!"

B: A verbal & physical confrontation. "Hey stop that or your going to have fight me now"

C: physical confrontation. -Push person 1 into 2, break #3's knee, and then worry about #1&2.

however A B or C work out, the conflict could raise itself to deadly force based on the actions of the assaulting individuals.

I.E. You say "Hey stop that!" The assaulting kids then turn and begin to walk towards you in an aggresive manner. You say "Don't take another step, I am armed"

If they continue, you draw.

If they continue, and close within distance to disarm you, you shoot to kill.

DISCLAIMER: this is all just my opinion.

_
FS

Posted: 5/30/2002 10:12:01 PM EDT

[#9]

a little story if you will indulge me. a man was walking home from work one day as his car was in the shop. as he passed a wooded park near his home he heard a scuffle in the woods and could hear a lady getting what could only be described and beaten and raped, the man thought well this is not my business and was walking to the other side of the road when his guts told him it was wrong to let that happen. he stopped and turned around and hurried back and being un armed started to scream at the guy and move toward him. the attacker got scared and ran off into the woods and then it was only dark and quiet. he heard the girl cry out daddy is that you? she was going to meet him at work and walk home with her father. and it was her who was attacked. now i am not saying that we should stick our nose where in every conflict we see but we need to stand up for what is right and not the the thugs take over the country.

the west wan not won untill the good guys started shooting back

Posted: 5/30/2002 10:15:56 PM EDT

[#10]

Jeez...I'm glad to know this board is full of good samaritans... [rolleyes]

If I saw someone getting beaten, and had the means to stop it, I would definitely step in. In TX, deadly force is authorized to save the life of a 3rd party. Would I shoot? Not until they began advancing on me and I felt threatened.

Posted: 5/31/2002 1:17:14 AM EDT

[#11]

I would have stepped in. I witnessed a similar thing happen at the mall one day. There was a guy on the ground while three guys were taking their turns beating him while his girl-friend stood there screaming. I just yelled "HEY" and ran towards them from a pretty good distance away. There are some who say I've got a mean/deranged look about me when I'm pissed, [:-)] and I guess these three guys weren't any different. They ran away and I helped the guy to his feet. Turned out he did nothing wrong besides having a beautiful girl-friend. Would have been nice to arrive in time to dole out some bruising, but my actions helped the couple out anyway.
We can't just turn a blind eye. Self-preservation is one thing, but guilt for inaction is another. If I had done nothing, I'd still be kicking myself.

Posted: 5/31/2002 1:32:47 AM EDT

[#12]

Right or wrong, I'm not going to walk away from someone getting killed. How would you live with yourself if you walked away and then heard of his death the next morning on the news?

Posted: 5/31/2002 2:10:24 AM EDT

[#13]

[b]funngunnin:[/b]

If it were me I would have stopped and helped, mainly because I am also packin anytime I step out of my house and go anywere.

One suggestion I might add is this:

There is a web site called [url]www.packing.org [/url]
This web site is totally dedicated towards concealed carry issues, and has links to all 50 states web sites so one can find those states laws pertaining to firearms and the use of lethal force in any given situation.

I would post this similiar situation on the board at packking.org and see what you come up with.

There are a number of knowledgeable people that post on that board so they could help you out.

Hope this helps.

Posted: 5/31/2002 4:10:21 AM EDT

[#14]

This is a decision every man or woman must make for himself, but I honestly believe that, whether or not I was armed; whether or not I stood a chance against them myself, I would have stepped in.

Not everyone believes that, and I won't require anyone to fight on my behalf. But MY ethics would have required me to step in, in the sort of scenario described.

Edited to answer the question: If armed I would have stood off a ways, told them to leave, and then if they didn't, draw down. If they approached me, or continued to beat on him, shoot the one who looks to be giving the victim the worst of it.

Posted: 5/31/2002 5:03:50 AM EDT

[#15]

I know in some states, like in Texas, the use of deadly force can be justified if a person reasonably believes that it is neccessary to prevent the death of a third person.

I interpret that to mean, in the situation given, I could draw first, threaten the use of deadly force, or even USE deadly force to prevent the guy from getting beaten to death. Consult your local state's laws, but when you're carrying, you should know when you can and can't use deadly force, or the threat thereof.

Posted: 5/31/2002 5:38:03 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
I didn't have my pistol on me so I didn't have to make the decision.

View Quote

Why didn't you have your pistol on you? Sounds like you live in a pretty bad neighborhood. This is the real question you should be asking yourself. And as others have suggested, consider moving.

Posted: 5/31/2002 5:44:37 AM EDT

[#17]

I'm surprised that with all the bravado you normally hear from so many armchair commandos here that there are so many who would walk away any let someone get beaten.

Posted: 5/31/2002 5:57:57 AM EDT

[#18]

how does it go..."all that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"?
some of us have just stated exactly where we stand on the good/evil thing.

Posted: 5/31/2002 8:09:47 AM EDT

[#19]

Let me just start by saying that I don't think any of us could really say what we would have done until we were actually confronted with the situation you describe. Being unarmed and clearly outnumbered, you had a tough choice. I'm certainly not going to second guess you under those circumstances. But, if you were armed (and I carry at all times), I think there is a moral requirement to intervene. In all likelihood, one shot fired into the air would have sent them all packing fast. And, in most states, the use of deadly force to protect a 3rd person from imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm is valid. However, and this is the catch, the threat must be real, not just perceived.

Posted: 5/31/2002 8:41:00 AM EDT

[#20]

I can't walk away from stuff like that. Armed or not I have to do what I can, even if I place myself in danger, I can't help it, it is a part of me that cannot be controlled. Fortunately I'm a big guy and hold several black belts and have a nasty attitude and a quick temper which means I don't usually regret jumping into a physical confrontation and welcome the opportunites that come along. I'm sure it will be my downfall, I'll probably get shot some day helping someone that I don't even know.

Posted: 5/31/2002 8:50:29 AM EDT

[#21]

I hate to step into a fight between people I don't know. Like someone else said, the third party doesn't know if the guy getting beat up deserves it or not. Certain situations, like a girl being attacked by a gang of boys, or a white kid getting the crap kicked out of him by black hoodlums probably merit intervention.

I'd be careful about "brandishing" a weapon when the no one else is armed.

Posted: 6/1/2002 9:03:48 AM EDT

[#22]

For those of you who state "he may have desevred it" Please give me a (likely) scenario that would involve someone deserving of being kicked to death by multiple assailants. BTW: I have been in the situation, and no I didn't shoot anyone.

Posted: 6/1/2002 9:32:49 AM EDT

[#23]

FYI - Packing.ORG is not 100% accurate.

Secondly, you can bet - if you cap some dirtbag as a result of that situation - your gonna get sued for wrongful death.

Third - it is graphic reminder that we are all individually responsible for our own personal safety.

How would you like this lil turn of events -

You (good sam) walking down the street see a guy on the ground getting the shit beat out of him. Due to events you shoot and kill the attacker. Turns out the guy on the ground tried to rape the attacker's sister. Now you've aided a rapist, shot a brother doing what he should do, gonna go to court and bear the legal expense (and very probably judgement) of a wrongful death civil suit. You're fucked financially, it will follow you on every records search - shows up as a judgement, may mess up your employment and most certainly is gonna ruin your personal life.

The golden rule of shakedown street -

All things are not necessarily as they would appear.

Posted: 6/1/2002 9:44:46 AM EDT

[#24]

[b] For those of you who state "he may have desevred it" Please give me a (likely) scenario that would involve someone deserving of being kicked to death by multiple assailants. [/b]

If say I and my friends came home from the pool hall and found this other guy on top of my wife (forcibly) and it was either arm up (pool halls sell beer) or give chase. I caught him, wet penis and all.

He hit my daughter in the mouth.

He likes rap music

Posted: 6/1/2002 11:02:26 PM EDT

[#25]

Nope, finding a guy with a wet willie does not justify killing him. As for the lawsuits, You are going to be sued if you ever use deadly force. No matter how justified, no matter the circumstances, you will be sued by somebody. Count on a MINIMUM legal bill of 100K for a justifiable use of deadly force. Don't even think of an unjustified one. concerning CHL's, If you haven't looked at legal retainers and insurance you really should.

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