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Posted: 9/3/2004 3:30:51 PM EST


It seems to me that the folks that are saying "Kill them all" are saying this not in relation to any RACE, or NATIONALITY. Rather, they're saying that voluntary adherants to a specific IDEOLOGY fall into this category.

An ideology that, as one author puts it, has BLOODY BORDERS wherever it goes.

An ideology that whereever it arises to any level of power, leaves dead by the scores in its wake.

An ideology that is utterly and completely incompatible with the notions of human rights, dignity and FREEDOM upon which this nation was built.

An ideology that, by its holy writ, is charged with coming "to a neighborhood" near you and either converting you, enslaving you (and making property of your women and daughters), or killing you.

Now, where I'm having trouble here is that, implicit in the refusal to allow opinions that believe it is high time to wipe out this entire ideology, is the opinion that IDEOLOGY ITSELF cannot be universally regarded as EVIL.

We're told that we CAN post "kill all the terrorists" without having our posts locked, of course. But to many perfectly reasonable people, especially those who have read the Muslim "holy writs" (the Koran and the Haddith), the inescapable conclusion is that Islam ITSELF is irretreivably terroristic in nature. In fact THEIR GOD explicitly TELLS THEM to "TERRORIZE" the non-muslims. Their holy writ itself adops a "kill them all" attitude in regard to non-Muslims. And their adherents, in this day and age, are openly practicing the expansion of the religion by the sword. Or supporing it with donations. Or standing in silence as the active branch of the religion carries out attrocities in all Muslims' names. Doing nothing. Not even condemning the brutality. CAIR, the "Council for American Islamic Relations" couldn't even be bothered to put up a statement on what was going on, in the name of ISLAM, in Russia. Those guys who indiscriminatly killed American men, women and children on 9-11 screamed "Allah Ackbahr" as they flew their victims into the buildings. An ex-military guy and his young follower become more and more dedicated to ISLAM, and the next thing you know, they're shooting unarmed US citizens. RebelGray converts to the IDEOLOGY and the next thing you know, he's teaching our enemies how to kill our boys over there. How many beheadings have been performed by the members of the IDEOLOGY in recent months. WHAT ARE THEY CHANTING AS THEY KILL THE INNOCENTS?!

If a religious doctrine arose, whereunder the HOLY WRIT of that religion it was the duty of all adherents to take their neighbor's first born in the dead of night, behead the children ritualistically, and eat them (i.e., cannabalism), and even a small faction of the "religion" put that practice into action, then would it be overstepping the COC to post "kill all of the cannabalists?" Why? Doesn't such a policy, which declares that just because something is an organized religion it is somehow elevated and immune from universal contempt, actually equate to moral relativism? How about if the religion depicted in the second Indiana Jones movie was "real" and its adherents were kidnapping your friends and neighbors, pulling out their hearts, and lowering them into pits of fire? What about a headhunters revival meeting every sunday? I dare say that if such a religion arose, it would be universally condemned, and whether by the government or the citizens acting of their own right, the voluntary adherents to such an abomination would be killed or otherwise dealth with.

I dunno. I reserve the right to call a spade a spade. To point out that not all religions are created equally. To hold the opinion that it is possible for an IDEOLOGY to be so inherently evil that anyone who professes to belong to that ideology must be dealt with harshly lest my family or friends be killed by the ideology.

I cannot imagine that anyone in the United States would have quibbled over a "kill em all" comment regarding the NAZIs during WWII. Sure, it would be unfortunate that the "nazi youth" included young children who had been brainwashed into that mindset. But the mindset and the belief system is what was the problem. Letting the mindset continue could do nothing but harm.

Apparently, all the NAZI's needed to do was disguise their totalitarian and murderous regime up as a religion and it would be be protected from the scrutiny or universal contempt it disserved.

At least on AR15.COM.

Its been years since 9-11. The "peaceful" muslims, if indeed that term is not an oxymoron, have had every opportunity to take an active role and help us ferret out the bad actors in their midst. But they're not. They provide them with aid. With comfort. And that makes them "those who harbor" the terrorists, in my view. And our commander in chief says, and rightly so, that we should not make a distinction between the terrorists and those who harbor them.

Except on AR15.COM, it would seem.

One last point. I know not everyone will find it satisfying or appealing, but it is certainly the case that the only use of Nuclear Weapons in wartime in human history had an aggregate effect of SAVING lives and immediatly ended conflict with an honor-shame society. Millions of "innocents" died. But the adherents of the imperialistic japanese mindset lost their support rather quickly. I would suggest that its not productive to keep that option perpetually off of the table in the war against islamic terror. Perhaps if some nation victimized by such terrorism finally engaged in some collective retribution on a level sufficent to SHOCK the enemy, the mindset that enables terrorism might find less support.

At the very least, the "marketplace of ideas" should be utilized to vet ALL of the options in dealing with the problem at hand. Some of it may be venting. Some of it may be naked hate. But there is nothing wrong with that, in my view. It is our own pussificiation that has emboldened our enemies so much in the last several decades. So, take this post for what its worth. It is my opinion, and I wish it weren't so, that we will one day need to face the prospect of dealing with the evil that has adopted the guise of an organized religion and to deal with it on a universal and uncompromising level. And our survival will likely depend on killing the adherents of the evil IDEOLOGY before they can kill us. They will make no distinction, indeed they HAVEN'T made any distinction, between man, woman or child. Nor, when the time comes, will we be able to afford to. I fear history will prove that those who are being labled as hate mongers and having their posts wind up locking threads are not so far off from what needs to be done.



Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:34:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 3:35:26 PM EST by ar50troll]
Yeah, what he said...sort of. Do wanna keep my account and all!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:34:47 PM EST
golf clap
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:34:49 PM EST
Their god is Satan, KILIMAWL
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:35:24 PM EST
Excellent post! Well said! IBTL!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:35:59 PM EST
Gonzo: Amen. Put far more eloquently than I could. Bloody good, mate!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:36:02 PM EST
Damn, THAT is a good post.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:36:05 PM EST
Ditto. Double damned ditto.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:36:31 PM EST
Uh... Kill most of them??
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:36:44 PM EST
VERY WELL SAID!


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:36:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By magnum_99:
Damn, THAT is a good post.


That means it's probably get locked
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:37:45 PM EST
Well said.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:38:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:39:17 PM EST
you are right on the money.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:39:47 PM EST
Ah hell, I ain't reading all that crap.
Kill 'em all now or kill 'em all later---after they've killed alot of us. I say piss on it, let's just get it over with. And the next time some loser race, religion, etc wants to wantonly kill others they will have an example to look back at.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:40:56 PM EST
The religion itself DOES in-fact set a basis for hate. By this, I mean.....why put a provision in scripture that if you become a martyr you are guaranteed a place in heaven with 72 virgins to play with? Doesn't always seem that Islamic countries are ALWAYS finding this reason or that reason to wage war on SOMEBODY! Jeez....if you are guaranteed a place in heaven if only you martyr, what's to stop ya from doing the before mentioned (aside from rational, non-cold blooded, non-brainwashed thinking?)

Could it be a measure for the leaders to be able to control the vassals and possibly raise armies when they get the whim?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:40:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 3:41:54 PM EST by magnum_99]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Ah hell, I ain't reading all that crap.
Kill 'em all now or kill 'em all later---after they've killed alot of us. I say piss on it, let's just get it over with. And the next time some loser race, religion, etc wants to wantonly kill others they will have an example to look back at.



Damn, ANOTHER good post!


I have said time and time again, just READ the Koran, and you'll understand rather quickly that the terrorists aren't "radical" at all. They are just practicing islam as intended.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:46:16 PM EST
I say kill ALL of the islamic cockroaches who want to kill us and do it before they get the chance.
If that means we have to kill all of them, then so be it.
I know one thing though, there are a lot more who want us dead and VERY FEW who PUBLICLY and LOUDLY condemn their islamic brothers actions.
Bottom line is, its us or them and we WILL win.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:48:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By magnum_99:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Ah hell, I ain't reading all that crap.
Kill 'em all now or kill 'em all later---after they've killed alot of us. I say piss on it, let's just get it over with. And the next time some loser race, religion, etc wants to wantonly kill others they will have an example to look back at.



Damn, ANOTHER good post!


I have said time and time again, just READ the Koran, and you'll understand rather quickly that the terrorists aren't "radical" at all. They are just practicing islam as intended.



When it happens here, in Kansas City or Dallas, they won't be lockin threads anymore.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:49:22 PM EST
Very well said Gonzo, but you are preaching to the choir. I'm sure most of us here, including myself agree with you wholeheartedly (sp?). Emotions were running high including my own. Where else can we vent in a safe manner in the company of our brothers and sisters? Does anyone really believe the mere talk is truly conspiring to commit genocide?

But on the other hand, and no I am not defending anyone in particular, the powers that be, whom govern this site, felt the topics were getting a little out of hand.

I'll shut up now.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:50:26 PM EST
I gotta say that is one of the best posts I ever read on AR-15. I wish I had of composed. To bad it will probably get locked.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:51:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:52:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
... But to many perfectly reasonable people, especially those who have read the Muslim "holy writs" (the Koran and the Haddith), the inescapable conclusion is that Islam ITSELF is irretreivably terroristic in nature. In fact THEIR GOD explicitly TELLS THEM to "TERRORIZE" the non-muslims. Their holy writ itself adops a "kill them all" attitude in regard to non-Muslims.




I consider myself a reasonable person, and I've actually READ the Koran, and I have three comments.

1. I don't know about GonzoAR15-1, but I've noticed that a LOT of people that like to tell me what the Koran says, and can quote a verse or two, have not actually read it themselves.

2. While there's a lot of agressive stuff about conquering infidels and stuff in the Koran, I've not found a pattern of "kill them all" with regard to non-Muslims. In fact, there is a Looooooooong list of prominent Muslim scholars around the world who condemmed the 9/11 attacks and correctly pointed out that it was in direct violation of many critical tenents of the Koran.

3. That said, I DO consider extremist Islam and fundamentalist Islam a significant threat to the west and western civilization. However, I do believe that there are moderate muslims that can reconcile their religion with civilized western culture.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:55:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 3:56:51 PM EST by magnum_99]
goddamn, silence the dissent.

My reply from another LOCKED thread.


Originally Posted By raf:
Guys, let it go, please. Condemn the perps for what they did.
To say that all Muslims are complicit in this barbaric act is just plain wrong and bigoted.

If you can prove that every single Muslim approves of the Russian school massacre, than you have carried your point. If you cannot, then stop making the claim. Simple as that.




No one is saying that "every single muslim" supports this. You miss the point.

The point it, for the one billionth damn time:

READ THE KORAN and there you will find the textual basis for these actions.

It is there in black and white. No "rules of contstuction" need apply.

It really does say "smite the necks" of the infidels. Really.

To that end, until the muslims have a "new testament" of the koran WHOLLY DENOUNCING these types of acts, then they are ALL complicitous.

Weren't ALL of the German people in WWII complicitous toward the Nazi's as well?

They didn't do too much to stop it, that's for sure.

Stop being intimidated by political correctness and realize that these bastards would so much as kill you as look at you.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:55:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:55:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 3:56:59 PM EST by MaverickMkii]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

However, I do believe that there are moderate muslims that can reconcile their religion with civilized western culture.




In which they hardly ever denounce their extremist brethren. I've seen other religious groups yelling more LOUDLY and OFTEN (to quote Zell ) at each other for issues, but haven't really heard from Islam at all.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:57:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By einnor1040:
I gotta say that is one of the best posts I ever read on AR-15. I wish I had of composed.


I have to agree.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:58:04 PM EST
'Kill the Wahabists / Salafists / Sharia Freaks!' just doesn't have the same ring to it, even if it is most accurate.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:58:14 PM EST
There is no way to reason with these fanatics.

They must be killed in such great numbers that there is simply NO INCENTIVE to carry out these acts.

It's so simple.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 3:59:27 PM EST
hmmm, how 'bout "anyone who does not condemn, renounce & denounce terrorism gets kicked the hell out of this country, and any country who takes in anyone who does not condemn, renounce & denounce terrorism gets zippo in US aid"

seriously, I think that would make the point quite eloquently.

dang, maybe I should run against old cow-thighs for Pres in '08
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:00:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
...So what does venting about this here accomplish?
...



Aimless, I've got to tell you that the above sentence is exactly why. People need to vent. Call me a pussy if you want, but I saw photos of this and I did something I haven't done in a long time. I cried like a child. I'm doing my best to remain civil, but I have a need to vent. I expect many folks do.

Good luck to you and the rest of the gang dealing with this, but I suggest major slack.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:00:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
once upon a time we used the 'kill them all' philosophy on germany and japan.

nuclear bombs and firestorms do not discriminate.

remember when saturation bombing and carpet bombing were cool?

remember when, "the only good commie is a dead commie"?

ah...those were the days! back when we could actually win a war by killing the bastards in numbers so significant that they finally gave up and bought g.e. toaster ovens from us and learned to play baseball as THEIR national passtime, too. yes, by thinking that way, it was actually possible to win a war.

hmmm? do you think you could ever teach osama to play second base? i don't think so.

yes...those were the days when it was actually possible to annihilate your enemy and win a war. i wonder if the bombadier of the enola gay was concerned with killing just 'some' of those in the kill radius...or 'all' of them?


Fuck, that's a brilliant post.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:00:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Look, in case you haven't noticed, this is a gun forum.




A "gun forum?"

That's funny. 99% of all threads in General Discussion aren't about guns.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:00:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
once upon a time we used the 'kill them all' philosophy on germany and japan.

nuclear bombs and firestorms do not discriminate.

remember when saturation bombing and carpet bombing were cool?

remember when, "the only good commie is a dead commie"?

ah...those were the days! back when we could actually win a war by killing the bastards in numbers so significant that they finally gave up and bought g.e. toaster ovens from us and learned to play baseball as THEIR national passtime, too. yes, by thinking that way, it was actually possible to win a war.

hmmm? do you think you could ever teach osama to play second base? i don't think so.



yes...those were the days when it was actually possible to annihilate your enemy and win a war. i wonder if the bombadier of the enola gay was concerned with killing just 'some' of those in the kill radius...or 'all' of them?





Damn well said Campy !!!
War is hell and people die.
The team that wins is the one who killed the most.
Will we have the will to do that ?? Sadly, I don't think so.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:01:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:02:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:03:58 PM EST
I was under the impression that General Discussion was not decididly gun related...am I wrong?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:04:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
A hundred thousand + muslims hunting down and killing muslim terrorists.

Happening right now.

I actually think actions speak louder than words.



I assume you mean Pakistanis and Afghanis?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:13 PM EST
The original post seems well thought out and makes many good points. I can't find anything in it that I would disagree with.

It is sad that events such as the recent one in Russia will happen here many times before our society finally resolves to fight a war in such a way that we will be able to declare it finished.

Backing cells of terrorists into a corner and allowing them to negotiate a cease-fire so that they can begin again a week later is not getting us the desired result.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Denouncing...that's really beginning to echo around here.

How's this for "denouncing?"

A hundred thousand + muslims hunting down and killing muslim terrorists.

Happening right now.

I actually think actions speak louder than words.

Wiping out societies? Situations akin to that of WWII? Those were wars against politics not religion.





Is religion NEVER to be questioned then? Even if the practice of which leads to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocents simply because they do not believe? That is what is happening.

We need to get over this "sacred cow" of islam and start dealing with reality.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 4:08:21 PM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:05:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
Wiping out societies? Situations akin to that of WWII? Those were wars against politics not religion.


Not every German was a Nazi and we bombed the shit out of that country until practically the last two people alive finally said "Uncle."

Every Muslim believes in the Koran, that's what makes him or her a Muslim. Big difference.

Your analogy doesn't hold water.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:06:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR-10:
The original post seems well thought out and makes many good points. I can't find anything in it that I would disagree with.

It is sad that events such as the recent one in Russia will happen here many times before our society finally resolves to fight a war in such a way that we will be able to declare it finished.

Backing cells of terrorists into a corner and allowing them to negotiate a cease-fire so that they can begin again a week later is not getting us the desired result.



Unfortunatley we have gone from a pro active to a reactive world. And those children paid the price for it today.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:08:24 PM EST
Kill them all.

Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:08:44 PM EST
No comment....
Or I'll get banned.

Now you guys see why it is a guarantee that some day a nuke will go off in one of our cities. After millions of us die, perhaps someone will be willing to cross the line of blind compassion and self preservation.
Last time I looked at the Constitution, there was nothing about not letting me hate. And yes, I know that this is a private board blah blah blah.
-Steve
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:09:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By magnum_99:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Look, in case you haven't noticed, this is a gun forum.




A "gun forum?"

That's funny. 99% of all threads in General Discussion aren't about guns.



You, like me, are a guest here. If you were at dinner with your boss tonight would you suddenly jump up on the table and start screaming "DEATH TO ALL MUSLIMS" Apparently you're not running around your lawn screaming that or doing it outside city hall in your town, please show similar restraint here.




I believe that I have shown restraint.

I've never said, "go out and kill a muslim tonight for mommy."

My point is that, just as Gonzo so eloquently stated, that we are fighting a murderous ideology that can only be defeated by brute force. If that means taking enough of them out that there is every incentive to "de-radicalize" then so be it.

Surely, you don't condemn the fire bombing of Dresden? Or the bombing of Berlin?

And don't tell me that it's different because it's "religion." That's redundant at this point.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:11:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:13:33 PM EST
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