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Posted: 6/18/2007 4:52:24 PM EDT
It has become clear to me that they are going to keep at it until it passes, oh well

Rare Tactic May Allow Immigration Votes
Jun 18, 2007
JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, AP

WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Only in the arcane world of the U.S. Senate could a quirky gambit known as a "clay pigeon" make the difference between passage of an important immigration measure and its death at the hands of opponents.

Democratic leaders hope the complex maneuver - which makes use of the Senate's labyrinthine rules to insist on votes on amendments - will frustrate conservatives' attempts to derail the embattled immigration bill, instead putting it on a fast track to passage next week.

Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said he would revive the bill to legalize as many as 12 million unlawful immigrants late this week. To do so, though, he needs backing from 60 senators, and a way to guarantee votes on a tentative list of 22 Republican and Democratic amendments whose consideration is seen as vital to satisfying key waverers.

The so-called clay pigeon is how he's expected to do it, under a strategy that was still taking shape Monday.

The tactic gets its name from the target used in skeet shooting, which explodes into bits as it is hit. In the Senate, an amendment is the target, and any one senator can demand that it be divided into separate fragments to be voted on piecemeal.

Under the tentative plan, Reid as early as Friday would launch his target - an amendment encompassing all 22 proposals - and shoot it into its component pieces. The Senate would then vote on ending debate on the immigration measure, which would take 60 votes and limit discussion of the bill to 30 more hours. After that interval, all 22 amendments would have to be voted on, with little opportunity for foes to interfere.

Ironically, the move is usually used by mavericks - not leaders - to slow down legislation, not free it from a procedural thicket.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., used it last year to protest a bill he complained included excessive spending. By offering and then dividing an amendment that targeted 19 items he deemed offensive, Coburn was able to insist on votes on individual projects.

"It's a brilliant way to gum up the works," said Robert B. Dove, a Senate rules expert who was the chamber's referee for 36 years.

The maneuver appears to be a relatively modern innovation; Dove said he first became aware of it in the early 1970s, when then-Sen. Jim Allen, D-Ala., a master of parliamentary procedures, used it against a bill pushed by the then- majority leader, Sen. Mike Mansfield, D-Mont.

"I remember people being dazzled when he did this," Dove said.

Reid's plan has its risks, chief among them further inflaming the vocal conservative opponents who have vowed to do whatever they can to kill the immigration measure.

"I've seen ideas like this really backfire. You pay a price for this kind of thing," Dove said, noting that the Senate functions almost entirely on consensus. "It can be done - I've seen it done - but it's a difficult maneuver."
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 4:57:11 PM EDT



+

Link Posted: 6/18/2007 4:58:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 4:58:47 PM EDT
nah, that's too good for traitors.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 4:59:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:01:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBang:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
www.photonics.com/images/spectra/applications/2006/November/Honey.jpg


+

www.diggerhistory.info/images/asstd3/white-feather2.jpg


Honey????


well you find a damn picture of sticky tar on google

Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:02:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:09:10 PM EDT
Much better
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:11:54 PM EDT
only one thing good enough for traitors.

hangman's noose
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:12:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/18/2007 5:25:47 PM EDT by BozemanMT]
whoops
double tap

F*cking traitors
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:22:23 PM EDT
If we don't pay our taxes for five or ten years do you think we can get amnesty and only have to pay a few thousand and say sorry?
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 5:25:03 PM EDT
Were going to have to get on the phone again........e-mail........bitch and moan....I say vote anyone OUT that's been there more than 1 term......make The Hill People Pay With There Jobs!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 6:18:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 15jonshoot:
If we don't pay our taxes for five or ten years do you think we can get amnesty and only have to pay a few thousand and say sorry?


You mean say: lo siento
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 6:33:41 PM EDT
Ok, I am sure that I am reading this wrong, but how does this actual help the passage of the bill.

It appears that the main purpose is to allow all the amendments to be voted on individually, which theoretically could lead to some of the more troublesome amendments (in the eyes of the Senators) being thrown out so that the final bill might be more palatable.

However, unless I am wrong, the votes would still require a majority of the senators and they didn't have enough the first time around. Also, even if they were successful in cutting some of the amendments, it would take 60 votes to end the debate and I didn't think that they had 60 votes.

So if they cannot get the 60 votes, the vote on ending the debate would not be successful and discussion on the bill would not be limited.

I agree that it is still important to let them know that this bill is not acceptable, but I don't see how this gets them around the numbers problem they were having earlier.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 6:49:50 PM EDT

Politicians

Rope

Tree

* Some assembly required.
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 6:59:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pa-15:
Politicians

Rope

Tree

* Some assembly required.


Nice!
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 7:15:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 7:32:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/18/2007 11:43:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By civprod:
Ok, I am sure that I am reading this wrong, but how does this actual help the passage of the bill.


This might have something to do with it, it says something about limiting amendments

Reid Plans "Clay Pigeon" Move Roll Call reports this morning that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid "is expected to employ a rarely used procedural tactic known as a 'clay pigeon' to resume debate on the immigration bill later this week, allowing the measure's backers to dictate the number of amendments while blocking any efforts by conservatives to slow or hijack the process, Senate aides said Friday." Reid's maneuver "will allow him to add a package of supplemental spending items aimed at funding border security efforts already under way, an inducement to gain support from wavering Republicans. According to a Democratic aide familiar with the issue, Reid is 'likely' to use the clay pigeon tactic, though the source cautioned that could change between now and Thursday afternoon, when debate is expected to resume."
Link Posted: 6/19/2007 12:25:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/19/2007 12:25:59 AM EDT by Jeeper21]

Link Posted: 6/19/2007 12:30:31 AM EDT
Does anyone remember the vote that resulted in the savings and loan disaster?
Link Posted: 6/19/2007 2:27:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By civprod:
Ok, I am sure that I am reading this wrong, but how does this actual help the passage of the bill.


This might have something to do with it, it says something about limiting amendments

Reid Plans "Clay Pigeon" Move Roll Call reports this morning that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid "is expected to employ a rarely used procedural tactic known as a 'clay pigeon' to resume debate on the immigration bill later this week, allowing the measure's backers to dictate the number of amendments while blocking any efforts by conservatives to slow or hijack the process, Senate aides said Friday." Reid's maneuver "will allow him to add a package of supplemental spending items aimed at funding border security efforts already under way, an inducement to gain support from wavering Republicans. According to a Democratic aide familiar with the issue, Reid is 'likely' to use the clay pigeon tactic, though the source cautioned that could change between now and Thursday afternoon, when debate is expected to resume."
He's going to try to ware them down (those against the bill) with all the amendments and discussion on each amendment and when they get tired and go home he will call for a vote when there's only supporters present. HARRY RIED IS A CROOKED BASTARD!!
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