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Posted: 8/11/2005 11:38:40 AM EDT
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.

I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:43:16 AM EDT
Ummmmm he was ambushed, and he was a lil crazy with religon.... He did better with what he had on hand than many well prepared police officers.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:43:40 AM EDT
Is this the Ruby Ridge guy?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:44:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1IV:
Ummmmm he was ambushed, and he was a lil crazy with religon.... He did better with what he had on hand than many well prepared police officers.




Yes, and because of that, I'm IBTL.......this will degrade in a hurry.....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:47:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.

I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???



How can you even think about second guessing this guy in this incident. He is an Special Forces trained soldier, trained to fight our nation's enemies in foreign countries with Uncle Sam's gear. He probably wouldn't be an ARFCOMMER, who stockpiles combat gear.

WHAT TACTICS WOULD YOU USE IF CONFRONTED BY THE US GOVERNMENT? Even with SF Ninja SEAL Delta training, without the logistic support, intelligence support, equipment support, and a team to work with... you are just one guy that is fucked tactically, strategically, legally, and totally.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:50:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.

I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???



How can you even think about second guessing this guy in this incident. He is an Special Forces trained soldier, trained to fight our nation's enemies in foreign countries with Uncle Sam's gear. He probably wouldn't be an ARFCOMMER, who stockpiles combat gear.

WHAT TACTICS WOULD YOU USE IF CONFRONTED BY THE US GOVERNMENT? Even with SF Ninja SEAL Delta training, without the logistic support, intelligence support, equipment support, and a team to work with... you are just one guy that is fucked tactically, strategically, legally, and totally.




Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:53:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 11:54:15 AM EDT by rifleman2000]

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:56:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.



Well, he was on something of a budget, given his lifestlye. After all, he was trying to raise money by selling a shotgun to a friend when he got in trouble in the first place.

But frankly, a pair of Mini-14s really ain't bad--reliable .223s with AR15 firepower (if not durability and accuracy). They had a bunch of other stuff, including the M1917 Enfield used to kill the Marshall in the initial exchange (when the Marshall's killed the dog and the boy).


Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???



IIRC, he was checking a cache when he was shot by Lon Horiachi. The chopper was a long way off at the time, the agents lied about its location to justify the shooting.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:56:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




Sorry rifleman I really dont know that much about the situation except for how they portray it on TV.

But it does seem a bit crazy to want to run to the woods to hunker down and then shoot it out with the FBI along with being a white supremist.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:57:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.



Well, he was on something of a budget, given his lifestlye. After all, he was trying to raise money by selling a shotgun to a friend when he got in trouble in the first place.

But frankly, a pair of Mini-14s really ain't bad--reliable .223s with AR15 firepower (if not durability and accuracy). They had a bunch of other stuff, including the M1917 Enfield used to kill the Marshall in the initial exchange (when the Marshall's killed the dog and the boy).


Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???



IIRC, he was checking a cache when he was shot by Lon Horiachi. The chopper was a long way off at the time, the agents lied about its location to justify the shooting.



Hmm well maybe i need to read up more before i ASSuME Maybe the history channel is a bit biased because their story seems very different.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:58:23 AM EDT
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:00:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




Sorry rifleman I really dont know that much about the situation except for how they portray it on TV.

But it does seem a bit crazy to want to run to the woods to hunker down and then shoot it out with the FBI along with being a white supremist.



He wasn't a white supremist either, he was a white seperatist....one implies the person believes in the superiority of one group over the other, the other just means he didn't want to live with or deal with the other group...there is a difference despite what some on here would have you believe....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:01:12 PM EDT
exSF or not...

The dude was in charge of a "family" in a "house"

If you are looking to make a point or pick a fight, there are much more interesting places to be looking.

Amatures
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:01:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.



Ironically, the barrel of the shotgun he worked on was legal, the agents placed it on a stock that was too short, the overall length is what got him in trouble.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:02:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




Sorry rifleman I really dont know that much about the situation except for how they portray it on TV.

But it does seem a bit crazy to want to run to the woods to hunker down and then shoot it out with the FBI along with being a white supremist.



That is the whole problem. Randy Weaver was NOT a white supremesist. He was a sepratist. That means that he believed the Bible taught separation of races. The feds wanted him to narc on the skin head types that he decided he wanted no dealing with. That was when the whole entrapment thing came down. It was a total government screw up and I regret that only one fed was dispached while operating outside of the Constitution's limits.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:03:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

But it does seem a bit crazy to want to run to the woods to hunker down and then shoot it out with the FBI along with being a white supremist.



Randy has admitted that running was a mistake.

He was first arrested for selling a sawed off shotgun to a "friend" to make some money. It was entrapment (the feds wanted to coerce him into working for them inside racist groups), and in the end he was released on this charge.

He and his family decided to flee the weapons charge, they didn't think it was a big enough deal for the feds to follow them into the woods.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:04:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.



It was approximately .25" too short, and there is speculation that the final cut was made by someone other than Weaver. IIRC Weaver was only nailed on failure to appear and was released with time served.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:05:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




Sorry rifleman I really dont know that much about the situation except for how they portray it on TV.

But it does seem a bit crazy to want to run to the woods to hunker down and then shoot it out with the FBI along with being a white supremist.



Correction: He was a white sepratist. Minor point, but I think significant.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:06:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:
exSF or not...

The dude was in charge of a "family" in a "house"

If you are looking to make a point or pick a fight, there are much more interesting places to be looking.

Amatures



The feds went in with the knowlege that he was a decorate SF vet, and they consequently considered him very dangerious.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:06:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.



It was approximately .25" too short, and there is speculation that the final cut was made by someone other than Weaver. IIRC Weaver was only nailed on failure to appear and was released with time served.



The proceeding I read was that the barrel was of perfectly legal length. The stock was short. Did I get a bogus .pdf of the court proceedings/facts?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:06:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:07:08 PM EDT by guardian855]

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supremist. He was a nutjob.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:08:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supermist. He was a nutjob.



Don't you read the other posts? There are three posts pointing out he was NOT a white supremist...he was a white seperatist...there is a difference....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:08:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By nationwide:
exSF or not...

The dude was in charge of a "family" in a "house"

If you are looking to make a point or pick a fight, there are much more interesting places to be looking.

Amatures



The feds went in with the knowlege that he was a decorate SF vet, and they consequently considered him very dangerious.



So they shot his dog? Because we all know that SF are trained to train the indiginous personelle

Don't get me started on this... It's a dish we are all much better off saying "pass" to
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:10:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supremist. He was a nutjob.



Uh oh.....WAIT !!!! My popcorn isn't ready yet !!!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:10:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.



It was approximately .25" too short, and there is speculation that the final cut was made by someone other than Weaver. IIRC Weaver was only nailed on failure to appear and was released with time served.



The proceeding I read was that the barrel was of perfectly legal length. The stock was short. Did I get a bogus .pdf of the court proceedings/facts?



I have gotten fuzzy it has been so long. You may be correct. I do remember that it was pure stretching of the circumstances. I have the affidavit in storage. I don't know if it lists the previous charge for the shotgun.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:11:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me.

Are you related to him or something? I think the "nutjob" label is debateable.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:11:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:12:29 PM EDT by CitySlicker]
I will stay out of this thread. Frankly, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:12:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supremist. He was a nutjob.



He was NOT a white supremesist. YOU are ignorant.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:13:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
I will stay out of this thread. Frankly, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.



You're the smart one.

Where do these asshats come up with this stuff, and why, oh why do they insist on posting it??
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:16:57 PM EDT
Maybe everybody forgot that the warrant for Randy Weaver was issued because he missed a court date. But the court and the ATF knew that his summons had the wrong date on it, therefore it was not his fault that he missed the date.

Regardless of you personal opinion about Randy Weaver, what happened to him and his family was unjustified.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:18:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Regardless of you personal opinion about Randy Weaver, what happened to him and his family was unjustified.

Agreed. It still doesn't mean he wasn't a little bit off his rocker.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:19:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
WHAT TACTICS WOULD YOU USE IF CONFRONTED BY THE US GOVERNMENT? Even with SF Ninja SEAL Delta training, without the logistic support, intelligence support, equipment support, and a team to work with... you are just one guy that is fucked tactically, strategically, legally, and totally.



Well I agree with everything except legally. All charges were dropped. His wife and child were MURDERED for NO reason. Lon Horuchi (sp) should be rotting away for taking that shot. I dont recall a baby being ever used to kill an officer before.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:20:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Maybe everybody forgot that the warrant for Randy Weaver was issued because he missed a court date. But the court and the ATF knew that his summons had the wrong date on it, therefore it was not his fault that he missed the date.

Regardless of you personal opinion about Randy Weaver, what happened to him and his family was unjustified.



Rifleman2000 is absolutely correct....if all you know of this case comes from the mainstream media....or the History Channel....then you are misinformed and don't have the real facts.

Agreeing with or liking Randy's religious/political/social views has nothing to do with the facts and the events which was a travesty against justice and freedom in this country....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:22:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:23:51 PM EDT by rifleman2000]

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
WHAT TACTICS WOULD YOU USE IF CONFRONTED BY THE US GOVERNMENT? Even with SF Ninja SEAL Delta training, without the logistic support, intelligence support, equipment support, and a team to work with... you are just one guy that is fucked tactically, strategically, legally, and totally.



Well I agree with everything except legally. All charges were dropped. His wife and child were MURDERED for NO reason. Lon Horuchi (sp) should be rotting away for taking that shot. I dont recall a baby being ever used to kill an officer before.



I agree. But what's a guy going to do in that situation? A lot of guys talk tough (they probably have no families) about taking on the JBTs... yeah, try that with a house full of kids and a wife.

Personally, I would be very happy if our country stayed on the straight and narrow, and I die at an old age having never fired my weapons again except to shoot some paper.

ETA: A lot of people forget one point: All charges against Randy Weaver were dropped, as pointed out by BlackDog714. Too bad his wife and kid are dead.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:27:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:29:51 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.



Ironically, the barrel of the shotgun he worked on was legal, the agents placed it on a stock that was too short, the overall length is what got him in trouble.



If the barrel was legal the stock wont matter, heck it can have just a pistol grip as long as the barrel is legit. Are pistol gripped shotguns now illegal?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:28:46 PM EDT
I have to laugh at all this posing going on here

"Tactics" this and "rascist" that!

Don't any of you dumbshits (those not posting what actually happend) pay attention to events as they are happening? Do you follow the stories as they develop, and are free from censorship because the "players" don't have time to control the burn???

Long story short, Mr. Weaver received $10,000,000 of OUR tax dollars because some overzealous agent working under "modified" rules of engagement shot his dog, and then all hell broke loose.

I say again... the shitter's full! Somebody PLEASE flush it!!!

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:30:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:
I have to laugh at all this posing going on here

"Tactics" this and "rascist" that!

Don't any of you dumbshits (those not posting what actually happend) pay attention to events as they are happening? Do you follow the stories as they develop, and are free from censorship because the "players" don't have time to control the burn???

Long story short, Mr. Weaver received $10,000,000 of OUR tax dollars because some overzealous agent working under "modified" rules of engagement shot his dog, and then all hell broke loose.

I say again... the shitter's full! Somebody PLEASE flush it!!!




+1

And people on ARFCOM talk about sheeple... what do you call sheeple that post on ARFCOM?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:33:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:36:06 PM EDT by J_Smith]

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.

I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???



How can you even think about second guessing this guy in this incident. He is an Special Forces trained soldier, trained to fight our nation's enemies in foreign countries with Uncle Sam's gear. He probably wouldn't be an ARFCOMMER, who stockpiles combat gear.

WHAT TACTICS WOULD YOU USE IF CONFRONTED BY THE US GOVERNMENT? Even with SF Ninja SEAL Delta training, without the logistic support, intelligence support, equipment support, and a team to work with... you are just one guy that is fucked tactically, strategically, legally, and totally.




Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



He's wasnt a nutjob - he was a normal American like you and me. He won a million dollar lawsuit against ATF - for ATF's murder of his wife and son. They shot his son in the BACK. He was reacting to his family being threatened by an unknown attacker? What would YOU do?? Curl up and cry? Call 911? Or defend your family?

In before the JBT apologists.

Lon Horiuchi should be rotting on death row in a Federal Pen today - but he isn't. Fucking murdering asshole.

Go ahead - call him a nutjob - one day they'll call for you and no one will rush to your defense when YOU are labelled a right wing nutjob because you own guns. Or maybe you will just turn your guns in like a good Sheep.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:33:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supremist. He was a nutjob.



Hmmmm friends with skin heads sounds like a real good guy
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:34:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
The best tactic is to not get put in that situation. Don't have friends that try to sell you out to the ATF. Don't sell a shogun thats too short.



Ironically, the barrel of the shotgun he worked on was legal, the agents placed it on a stock that was too short, the overall length is what got him in trouble.



If the barrel was legal the stock wont matter, heck it can have just a pistol grip as long as the barrel is legit. Are pistol gripped shotguns now illegal?



If your shotgun is under 26 inches in overall length it earns the title "SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUN"

This is bad if you do not have a permit for such a thing.

Stepping back out of this thread, amazed and disgusted at some of the ignorance and idiocy here.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:36:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supremist. He was a nutjob.



Hmmmm friends with skin heads sounds like a real good guy



Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:36:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:38:33 PM EDT by dport]

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By guardian855:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Well I realize he was a nutjob but even so why would u run outside without any cover or concealment?



Randy Weaver was not a nutjob by any stretch. That remark is personally offensive to me. You might want to do your homework before you comment.




He was a white supremist. He was a nutjob.



He was NOT a white supremesist. YOU are ignorant.


And you can't spell supremacist. Your point? It's a matter of opinion.

Personally, I think someone who believes in separation of the races is just as nutty as the people who believe 9/11 was a .gov conspiracy. I think separation of the races is downright unAmerican.

People like to point out that he was a not a supremacist, but a separatist, like that's some kind of redeeming quality.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:37:27 PM EDT
Randy was set up. The whole sawed off barrel charge was to be used as leverage to get him to spy on some KKK type groups. Their is a big differnce between what happened and being alone exSF guy. He had a family to protect.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:37:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Hmmmm friends with skin heads sounds like a real good guy



Who gives a fuck if you think he is a "real good guy" or not. Fact is, he is a whole lot better than most of the people posting here, his military record can prove it.

Last time I checked, not being a "real good guy" in someones opinion was not legal grounds to murder your wife and son. Especially since any charges agains Randy Weaver were eventually dropped.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:38:39 PM EDT
Next time - get your facts straight before you post.

FBI Assault At Ruby Ridge

In 1992, the FBI conducted a military siege of a rural Idaho family, ultimately killing Randy Weaver's dog, son and wife. The federal government's behavior in the incident can only be described as sickening.

Federal agents set Randy Weaver up on weapons charges.

Attempting to infiltrate a white supremacist group, the BATF entrapped Weaver into selling them two shotguns. When he refused to cooperate with them, federal agents lied in order to get support for their retaliation.

The U.S. government murdered Randy Weaver's son and wife during a military siege of Ruby Ridge.

Four hundred armed federal agents conducted a siege of the Weavers' mountain home, first killing Randy Weaver's dog, then his son, then his wife.

Weaver was found innocent of all serious charges.

In a 1993 trial, Randy Weaver and his friend were found innocent of weapons and murder charges. Weaver was found guilty of not appearing in court on the original charges.

Later investigations criticized the federal agents.

The Justice Department's own report recommended criminal prosecution of federal agents; the surviving Weavers won $3.1 million in civil damages.

The U.S. Senate criticized federal law enforcement for their roles.

In September 1995, the Senate held hearings on the Ruby Ridge incident, and in December, released its report criticizing the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:40:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By J_Smith:

Lon Horiuchi should be rotting on death row in a Federal Pen today - but he isn't. Fucking murdering asshole.



But... but... a FEDERAL court in Oklahoma City (of all places... where's my foil???) ruled he was not negligent, and was acting in accordance with the BEST traditions of his agency
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:42:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or weapons choice or anything for that matter.

I mean why would you run out side into the open because a chopper is flying by???



How can you even think about second guessing this guy in this incident. He is an Special Forces trained soldier, trained to fight our nation's enemies in foreign countries with Uncle Sam's gear. He probably wouldn't be an ARFCOMMER, who stockpiles combat gear.

WHAT TACTICS WOULD YOU USE IF CONFRONTED BY THE US GOVERNMENT? Even with SF Ninja SEAL Delta training, without the logistic support, intelligence support, equipment support, and a team to work with... you are just one guy that is fucked tactically, strategically, legally, and totally.



+1

Should also remember he was shot while checking on the body of his dead child in a shed.



And the ONLY thing worse than the whole RR incident is the resulting collection of jackleg fucktards who come along and characterize him as some kind a Klan member and suggest he got what he deserved.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:43:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By J_Smith:

Lon Horiuchi should be rotting on death row in a Federal Pen today - but he isn't. Fucking murdering asshole.



But... but... a FEDERAL court in Oklahoma City (of all places... where's my foil???) ruled he was not negligent, and was acting in accordance with the BEST traditions of his agency



Sure, if the best traditions of his agency are shooting unarmed women with babies in their arms...then I guess he acted in accordance.

Gee, a Federal Court covering up for a Federal Agency...whodda thunk it?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:43:22 PM EDT
Randy Weaver was a victim of entrapment by federal agents trying to get him to sell a short-barrel shotgun illegally. They wanted him entrapped so they could get him to infiltrate some 88 groups for them. He sold them a legal shotgun and refused to do their dirty work. They arrested him anyway.

The shotgun case wasn't going to hold water and he'd win in court, so they issued the wrong date to appear in court to him. He went camping with his family and friends when he was supposed to appear in court because he'd been given a later date to appear in court. Now the feds had an excuse to arrest him on bogus charges and went into the woods with body armor, camouflage, and machine guns.

They came upon Weaver, his friend, a boy in his young teens (either Weaver's son or his friend's son, I don't remember), and the dog walking along in the woods chatting and carrying deer rifles. The dog spotted one of the agents and started barking. The agent shot the dog with automatic fire. The two men ran for the cabin while the boy returned fire and was gunned down.

Weaver and his friend returned to the cabin and holed up inside. At some point, I'm not clear on when, a police sniper shot Mrs. Weaver while she was standing in the doorway holding one of her children in her arms. She was unarmed and not using the child as a human shield or hostage.

Anyway, a stand-off ensues, Weaver gets wounded at least once, and eventually everyone in the cabin surrenders.

Weaver then gets acquitted on all charges because they're obviously bogus.

End result: Two, possibly three, innocent people murdered by federal agents, one marshal dead, and a whole lot of bullshit from the feds, who, by the way, were never charged with criminal activities or unprofessional/dangerous behavior.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:43:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
And you can't spell supremacist. Your point? It's a matter of opinion.
So, if you don't like someone you can kill their family?

Personally, I think someone who believes in separation of the races is just as nutty as the people who believe 9/11 was a .gov conspiracy. I think separation of the races is downright unAmerican.

People like to point out that he was a not a supremacist, but a separatist, like that's some kind of redeeming quality.
Your opinion is duly noted, irrelevant to this discussion as it may be.


Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:43:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 12:49:43 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By jchewie:


If your shotgun is under 26 inches in overall length it earns the title "SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUN"

This is bad if you do not have a permit for such a thing.

Stepping back out of this thread, amazed and disgusted at some of the ignorance and idiocy here.



Sorry you think I am idiot and that you are disgusted. Ignorant? Sure I dont even know what the exact shotgun was. Randy weaver is not a hero of mine and I didnt follw the story like many others did I was assuming it was a pump shotgun so I plead ignorance. You can stick that idiot comment where you please. Then again you are not in this thread anymore so I wasted all this typing. That makes me an idiot , there.

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