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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/10/2007 8:11:09 PM EST
Okay it wasn't out when I enlisted in Army in the 90's, what is the story with this clotting agent, what is it about the product that requires "Use By Trained Emergency Responders, Basis First Aid Knowledge Required Prior to Use" ?

Is there something that people need know about it, I am seriously considering adding it to my BOB list of things to get. I have read in a few places that you can die if not treated very soon due to poisoning of blood-if the blood loss doesn't kill you first. 9 pints isn't very much.

I found it here: http://www.lapolicegear.com/quikclot.html ,its the first place that I found that sell the agent/product that doesn't just talk about it!
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:16:04 PM EST
There is a exothermic reaction to it. Remember, for liability reasons, everything medical needs to be used by "trained" people.

Oh, I have one in my kit.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:18:09 PM EST
I just read a FAQ on it, and in one question about side effects it briefly discussed the exothermic reaction, then went on to say in the next question that there is no chemical reaction Maybe I slept through that part of class, but how is there an exothermic reaction (release of heat) if there is no chemical reaction?
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:25:57 PM EST
That I cant say. We used one in class, drew up some fresh blood and poured it in. It got pretty hot. IIRC, i read that you can get 2nd deg burns. Im not sure about that, I just remember something to that effect.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:28:35 PM EST
As mentioned it will burn the piss out of you. However, in most cases you will need to open up the wound, perhaps with a scalpel or knife and get the granules into the wound next to the bleeding artery. A good 5 mins of pressure is generally required and it still does not always work.

The is no way that one person can apply it and be successful. The general rule of thumb is that 4 persons are required. This is optimal but experienced guys can do maybe 3 people to apply. I would be shocked to see 2 people be successful.

1 person to hold the wound cavity open and create a bowl.
1 person to keep pressure on the artery to keep the bleeding under control and sponge out any excess blood.
1 person to pour the entire packet into the wound
And 1 person to immediately apply direct pressure with copious amounts of gauze.

QuikClot does not work in any way that you see in the movies. If you have no clue how to apply it or how or why it works, you will be wasting your time. Quite honestly if you do not have the ability to practice using it on living tissue, you might as well just forget about the QuikClot.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:30:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:35:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 8:36:29 PM EST by JS98010]
HemCon and Celox do not have an exothermic reaction, and thus can be used on wounds on the torso, face, etc. Tourniquet not required.

Think of them as QuickClot v 2.0.

ETA:


CELOX™ receives NSN numbers -
6510-01-549-5980 -
Single 35g Package
6510-01-549-6058 -
Box of 100 35g Packages
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:37:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 8:42:35 PM EST by Chairborne]

Originally Posted By JS98010:
HemCon and Celox do not have an exothermic reaction, and thus can be used on wounds on the torso, face, etc. Tourniquet not required.

Think of them as QuickClot v 2.0.

ETA:


CELOX™ receives NSN numbers -
6510-01-549-5980 -
Single 35g Package
6510-01-549-6058 -
Box of 100 35g Packages


I think of Quikclot ACS+ (no heat related problems) as the improved product, and I have some. The original stuff didn't get that hot, about 120 degrees max IIRC, not enough to matter if it's saving your life.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:44:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/10/2007 8:45:56 PM EST by JS98010]

Originally Posted By Chairborne:

I think of Quikclot ACS+ (no heat related problems) as the improved product, and I have some. The original stuff didn't get that hot, about 120 degrees max IIRC, not enough to matter if it's saving your life.


I thought it was in the neighborhood of 160F. I got a couple of samples of HemCon and saw a Celox demonstration at the SpecOps West 2007 Expo in Tacoma back in June.

The IFAK is already obsolete (the ANG just got 'em).
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:46:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By JS98010:

Originally Posted By Chairborne:


I think of Quikclot ACS+ (no heat related problems) as the improved product, and I have some. The original stuff didn't get that hot, about 120 degrees max IIRC, not enough to matter if it's saving your life.

I thought it was in the neighborhood of 160F. I got a couple of samples of HemCon and saw a Celox demonstration at the SpecOps West 2007 Expo in Tacoma back in June.

The IFAK is already obsolete (the ANG just got 'em).


The IFAK is obsolete why? It's still the current issue medkit in OIF/OEF. I got a free first aid kit from Z-medica and it included ACS+ so I switched that out for my IFAK (mixed and matched the best stuff from each). I know the ACS+ stuff only gets to 105*F, no big deal.
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 10:16:01 PM EST
I'm surprised I didn't find the Hemcon & Celox in my searches...I will have to look them all now! Great More work h
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 2:02:47 AM EST
Am I wrong, or did someone once tell me that this stuff needs to be completely cut out once the patient gets to a suitable facility? If that's the case, I'll pass. Pressure bandage, ftw...
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 2:10:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By RobarSR60:
Am I wrong, or did someone once tell me that this stuff needs to be completely cut out once the patient gets to a suitable facility? If that's the case, I'll pass. Pressure bandage, ftw...
You're gonna need surgery anyway to repair the damaged artery/vein, so you wont notice the QuikClot being cut out.

Kharn
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 2:24:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By JS98010:
HemCon and Celox do not have an exothermic reaction, and thus can be used on wounds on the torso, face, etc. Tourniquet not required.

Think of them as QuickClot v 2.0.

ETA:


CELOX™ receives NSN numbers -
6510-01-549-5980 -
Single 35g Package
6510-01-549-6058 -
Box of 100 35g Packages


Instead, they carry HemCon, a special bandage of ground-up shrimp shells. The shells contain chitosan, a substance which binds strongly to tissue and seals wounds in much the same way as a tyre patch seals a tyre. HemCon has its own problems: because it comes in a bandage, it is difficult to apply to deep or oddly shaped wounds. The bandage is also too stiff to be used to treat gunshot wounds effectively, as it cannot be packed into a hole to create enough pressure to control the bleeding. As a result, many army units buy QuikClot regardless of the policy at the top, says Z-Medica CEO Ray Huey.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 2:25:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By 70satvert:
I just read a FAQ on it, and in one question about side effects it briefly discussed the exothermic reaction, then went on to say in the next question that there is no chemical reaction Maybe I slept through that part of class, but how is there an exothermic reaction (release of heat) if there is no chemical reaction?


QuikClot releases heat when positively charged calcium ions in its pores react with water molecules. Other positive ions release less heat when they react with water, so Stucky and Ostomel swap some of the calcium ions in the material for silver ions by soaking the material in a silver-containing solution. They can control how much of the calcium they replace, allowing them to tune the material to release as much or as little heat as they choose. "Having some heat is good," Stucky says. "It facilitates the clotting process

The safety problem in the way of QuikClot's wider use arises because of the large amount of heat the material releases when it absorbs water, sometimes enough to cause second-degree burns.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 3:08:53 AM EST
I'm a SABC instructor (Self-Aid Buddy Care) for the Air Force, and Quik-Clot is something we teach on. It's very good, has a zero mortality rate when used. A couple of things to remember; 1. It's caustic-meaning it will burn if you get it on wet exposed skin, and you don't want to get it in your eyes. 2. Make sure you soak up all of the excess blood before you pour the QC in the wound and then place packing (gauze) against the QC to ensure it works. Z-Medica made a movie about the use of QC and used a pig for the demo, worked pretty good. If I can find it I'll link it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 3:27:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 3:28:27 AM EST by tyman]

Originally Posted By zwvirtual:
I'm a SABC instructor (Self-Aid Buddy Care) for the Air Force, and Quik-Clot is something we teach on. It's very good, has a zero mortality rate when used. A couple of things to remember; 1. It's caustic-meaning it will burn if you get it on wet exposed skin, and you don't want to get it in your eyes. 2. Make sure you soak up all of the excess blood before you pour the QC in the wound and then place packing (gauze) against the QC to ensure it works. Z-Medica made a movie about the use of QC and used a pig for the demo, worked pretty good. If I can find it I'll link it.


This one?


Our BN's medics showed it everytime in the CLS classes they taught when we talked about QuikClot and other starchy coagulators.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 3:40:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 3:51:32 AM EST by Tacberry]
I've been to a bunch of TC3 courses this past year to help with the simulations. I haven't seen Quick Clot used yet. CAT is the first thing they grab.

http://www.techlinerocks.com/index_files/Page548.htm

Link Posted: 10/11/2007 4:16:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By SSDSurf:
As mentioned it will burn the piss out of you. However, in most cases you will need to open up the wound, perhaps with a scalpel or knife and get the granules into the wound next to the bleeding artery. A good 5 mins of pressure is generally required and it still does not always work.

The is no way that one person can apply it and be successful. The general rule of thumb is that 4 persons are required. This is optimal but experienced guys can do maybe 3 people to apply. I would be shocked to see 2 people be successful.

1 person to hold the wound cavity open and create a bowl.
1 person to keep pressure on the artery to keep the bleeding under control and sponge out any excess blood.
1 person to pour the entire packet into the wound
And 1 person to immediately apply direct pressure with copious amounts of gauze.

QuikClot does not work in any way that you see in the movies. If you have no clue how to apply it or how or why it works, you will be wasting your time. Quite honestly if you do not have the ability to practice using it on living tissue, you might as well just forget about the QuikClot.


At what point in the process are the soldiers applying the QC? If it takes that many people I'm assuming that it isn't used until the wounded are taken to a Field Med. Unit.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:06:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Chairborne:
The IFAK is obsolete why? It's still the current issue medkit in OIF/OEF. I got a free first aid kit from Z-medica and it included ACS+ so I switched that out for my IFAK (mixed and matched the best stuff from each). I know the ACS+ stuff only gets to 105*F, no big deal.


After seeing all the HSLD shit at SpecOps West 2007, yeah IFAK is yesterday's news.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:11:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By SSDSurf:
As mentioned it will burn the piss out of you. However, in most cases you will need to open up the wound, perhaps with a scalpel or knife and get the granules into the wound next to the bleeding artery. A good 5 mins of pressure is generally required and it still does not always work.

The is no way that one person can apply it and be successful. The general rule of thumb is that 4 persons are required. This is optimal but experienced guys can do maybe 3 people to apply. I would be shocked to see 2 people be successful.

1 person to hold the wound cavity open and create a bowl.
1 person to keep pressure on the artery to keep the bleeding under control and sponge out any excess blood.
1 person to pour the entire packet into the wound
And 1 person to immediately apply direct pressure with copious amounts of gauze.

QuikClot does not work in any way that you see in the movies. If you have no clue how to apply it or how or why it works, you will be wasting your time. Quite honestly if you do not have the ability to practice using it on living tissue, you might as well just forget about the QuikClot.


What about the sponges infused with quick clot? Still need four folks?
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:11:54 AM EST
I've used regular cyanoacrylate glue and kicker on a few bad cuts. The CA seals and the kicker cauterizes...
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:14:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
I've used regular cyanoacrylate glue and kicker on a few bad cuts. The CA seals and the kicker cauterizes...


Isn't the cyanide in the glue dangerous?
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 8:13:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 8:13:49 AM EST by zwvirtual]

Originally Posted By Tacberry:

Originally Posted By SSDSurf:
As mentioned it will burn the piss out of you. However, in most cases you will need to open up the wound, perhaps with a scalpel or knife and get the granules into the wound next to the bleeding artery. A good 5 mins of pressure is generally required and it still does not always work.

The is no way that one person can apply it and be successful. The general rule of thumb is that 4 persons are required. This is optimal but experienced guys can do maybe 3 people to apply. I would be shocked to see 2 people be successful.

1 person to hold the wound cavity open and create a bowl.
1 person to keep pressure on the artery to keep the bleeding under control and sponge out any excess blood.
1 person to pour the entire packet into the wound
And 1 person to immediately apply direct pressure with copious amounts of gauze.

QuikClot does not work in any way that you see in the movies. If you have no clue how to apply it or how or why it works, you will be wasting your time. Quite honestly if you do not have the ability to practice using it on living tissue, you might as well just forget about the QuikClot.


At what point in the process are the soldiers applying the QC? If it takes that many people I'm assuming that it isn't used until the wounded are taken to a Field Med. Unit.



For uncontrolled bleeding the CAT (Combat Application Tourniquet) should be used first if possible. If not possible (such as a wound to the armpit, groin) then QC should be used. Also QC can be used in conjunction with a CAT if it cannot control the bleeding sufficiently.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 9:43:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By pcsutton:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
I've used regular cyanoacrylate glue and kicker on a few bad cuts. The CA seals and the kicker cauterizes...


Isn't the cyanide in the glue dangerous?


Hasn't killed me yet! Though accidentaly gluing your lip to your teeth sucks.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 10:01:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By ChadG:
Okay it wasn't out when I enlisted in Army in the 90's, what is the story with this clotting agent, what is it about the product that requires "Use By Trained Emergency Responders, Basis First Aid Knowledge Required Prior to Use" ?

Is there something that people need know about it, I am seriously considering adding it to my BOB list of things to get. I have read in a few places that you can die if not treated very soon due to poisoning of blood-if the blood loss doesn't kill you first. 9 pints isn't very much.

I found it here: http://www.lapolicegear.com/quikclot.html ,its the first place that I found that sell the agent/product that doesn't just talk about it!


That will make a nice addittion.


Page 2 ownage.

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 10:04:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 11:59:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tacberry:

At what point in the process are the soldiers applying the QC? If it takes that many people I'm assuming that it isn't used until the wounded are taken to a Field Med. Unit.


The QC can be applied in the field, even under combat conditions. Generally direct pressure, tourniquet or basically a finger in the vein or pinching the vein / artery may work until you can get to a more secure area. A medic can use the help of any person available and the process is easily explained. One thing to remember is that the person being treated my be conscious and will not be lying still when trying to apply the QC. When in doubt, Gauze and some serious direct pressure is your best friend. You can never have too much of it. Another thing is that the QC gauze and all is left in the wound cavity and dressed in a manner to keep pressure applied if possible. Wounds can open up and bleed again when moving or upon EVAC but the QC is much better than using a tourniquet for extended periods or just trying to use direct pressure and gauze.


Originally Posted By pcsutton:

What about the sponges infused with quick clot? Still need four folks?


I have not personally used the sponge yet. I will probably get a chance very soon to try out the sponge . I have heard they do not spread into the wound and are not as effective as the lose granules. I have heard that guys prefer the lose granules over the sponge.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 12:05:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By pcsutton:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
I've used regular cyanoacrylate glue and kicker on a few bad cuts. The CA seals and the kicker cauterizes...


Isn't the cyanide in the glue dangerous?


Not in the least...it is highly reactive, unlike CN- which reacts only with metals...



And for the original chemical question, it is a physical reaction that releases heat...much like freezing of water (exothermic phase change) or dissolution of ammonium nitrate (endothermic).

Link Posted: 10/11/2007 4:29:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By tyman:

Originally Posted By zwvirtual:
I'm a SABC instructor (Self-Aid Buddy Care) for the Air Force, and Quik-Clot is something we teach on. It's very good, has a zero mortality rate when used. A couple of things to remember; 1. It's caustic-meaning it will burn if you get it on wet exposed skin, and you don't want to get it in your eyes. 2. Make sure you soak up all of the excess blood before you pour the QC in the wound and then place packing (gauze) against the QC to ensure it works. Z-Medica made a movie about the use of QC and used a pig for the demo, worked pretty good. If I can find it I'll link it.


This one?


Our BN's medics showed it everytime in the CLS classes they taught when we talked about QuikClot and other starchy coagulators.




Yep, that's it. I show it during my SABC classes too. Grosses out the students...makes me think about bacon
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 4:57:14 PM EST
That is how we get our living tissue practice for advanced combat medic courses for knife, ballistic, blast wounds and trauma. We try to use 180 pounders to emulate a real sized person. This type of live tissue training in the field is hard to come by but invaluable as a training tool and it is very expensive.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 5:01:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 5:03:44 PM EST by BLY]
There is an "Sport" variation of QuickClot, that comes in a sponge form.

Surely not as effective or diverse in use as the granule form, but may still be useful.?
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 1:57:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2007 1:57:50 PM EST by WHITE_WOLFE]

Originally Posted By tyman:

Originally Posted By JS98010:
HemCon and Celox do not have an exothermic reaction, and thus can be used on wounds on the torso, face, etc. Tourniquet not required.

Think of them as QuickClot v 2.0.

ETA:


CELOX™ receives NSN numbers -
6510-01-549-5980 -
Single 35g Package
6510-01-549-6058 -
Box of 100 35g Packages


Instead, they carry HemCon, a special bandage of ground-up shrimp shells. The shells contain chitosan, a substance which binds strongly to tissue and seals wounds in much the same way as a tyre patch seals a tyre. HemCon has its own problems: because it comes in a bandage, it is difficult to apply to deep or oddly shaped wounds. The bandage is also too stiff to be used to treat gunshot wounds effectively, as it cannot be packed into a hole to create enough pressure to control the bleeding. As a result, many army units buy QuikClot regardless of the policy at the top, says Z-Medica CEO Ray Huey.



Chitosan can be purchased in capsule form to be taken orally. Said to bind to fat in your food and stop the body from absorbing it. Can be found in most health food stores.
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