Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 12/23/2003 10:02:51 PM EDT
On reviewing the latest craze of putting a forward pistol grip on a carbine, the only purpose I can see for it is increased controlability during full auto fire from a short barrel. All of the firearms I know of that incorporate a forward grip are sub guns- Tommy gun, MP5K, and such.
Is there any real advantage for someone putting a forward grip on a semi-only AR carbine? It seems to make the weapon a bit cumbersome, but I have only shot fullauto subguns with a forward grip, never an AR.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:04:37 PM EDT
it gives me much better control, and is more natural/comfortable on my semi AR
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:10:54 PM EDT
The forward grip helps to keep your elbows in toward the body during tactical entries. I have also heard that in close quarters you get faster response and better recoil recovery. Never used one, though, so can't speak from experience. Dave
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:14:47 PM EDT
to add to the above: much easier on your arm after lengthened periods of holding your gun up to your shoulder (thats right, not on a rifle rest/bench [:D])
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:59:35 AM EDT
I have a colt m4 and for the last couple weeks I've been working on my standing, doing double taps at 25-50 yards. Using a conventional hold, grabbing the forearm, I got about 2 in groups. On a lark, I started holding on to the mag well in a verticle grip. My group size shrank to under 1in, some in the same hole. Whether it was isometric tension or the tooth fairy, a vertical grip seems to work. I plan on buying one in the future.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:32:30 AM EDT
Well, it all sounds good. Where to get one cheap? I don't want to outlay the money for a Knight rail until I'm satisfied with its necessity. Does anybody make one that will lock onto a simple weaver rail attached to the handguard? You guys realize you have helped me get into the accessories mode again, much to the despair of my wife. Thnaks everyone!
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:39:51 AM EDT
Go to the SOG website. They have a good selection and descent prices. You will have to purchase a rail if you don't have one. Also go to American Spirit Arms site. They have some also.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:46:07 AM EDT
i used to have a bad habit of grabbing the magwell. That is until i had a cade failure and blew a mag and LOTS of hot gas out the well. If i had been holding it there i'd have severely burned my hand. Now i make a point of using the hand guard or putting a for grip close in to grab. It also makes for faster control of the weapon in cqb. mike
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:49:21 AM EDT
Vertical vs horizontal is a much more natural position for your hand and forearm. That being said, I need to get one myself!
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:52:29 AM EDT
It also depends on the angle. I removed the forward PG on my 1927A1 Deluxe (semi), and replaced it with the standard M1 Thompson grip because it was so bad for shoulder firing. It is angled the wrong way for accurate firing. Take a look at it, versus the proper angle of say, and AMD65.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:57:37 AM EDT
And for a counter opinion - The hand guards are supported not gripped for greater accuracy which I understand isn’t a problem for the high-speed low-drag CQB operators who shoot at ranges out to eight to ten feet typically. I don't know of anyone who has the ability to catch a bullet in their hands nor move their hands downwards in 1/10th of a second which is what people are trying to do pulling the weapon downwards between shots. A nice muzzle brake will do this same thing automatically and better than anyone can with your hand. Sir Isaac Newton came up with a series of laws that are very difficult to violate on physics. Mass in motion has momentum and the amount is calculated with the formula mass x acceleration = momentum. A heavier handguard means greater momentum. Having a four inch mono-pod sitting out forward can limit the use of horizontal cover that you can use. It is mostly a matter of taste and who am I to tell you your taste.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:59:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP: Vertical vs horizontal is a much more natural position for your hand and forearm. That being said, I need to get one myself!
View Quote
I disagree, as it's also the weaker position (going back to my heavy Thompson example). Try this, fake holding a forward PG during shoulder firing. Take a 3 pound weight, and see how long you can hold it up as if it was the weight on your front hand. Now try it with same weight, but faking a standard palming grip. Which can you hold longer? IMO, a forward PG is a FA control thing. Not to mention an extra place to put your hand if you've 'over accessorized'.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:06:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP: Vertical vs horizontal is a much more natural position for your hand and forearm. That being said, I need to get one myself!
View Quote
Yes your hand & wrist is in a more neutral position - but its a very poor position for bearing the weight and you will have to use more muscles to hold up the front end. The *propely positioned* foward grip will allow better muzzle control. It also puts the wrist in a more neutral position reducing fatigue in the support arm muscles. With the support elbow tucked in you get much better mechanical support for the weight (some can be transferred to the body). All this results in less fatigue when clearing buildings (which can take a while). At first I didn't like the grips. It turned out I had tried them too far away from my body. After reading some tips from Pat Rogers in one of his articles I tried it again (this time closer to the magazine well) and it quickly grew on me. One of the cheapest forward grips I've found is the one sold by Fulton Armory (VG-1 Guardian Foward Grip). It normally costs $24.95 and right now its 20% off (till Christmas) so your cost if you order now is [b]$20[/b] plus shipping. The grip itself is a copy of the Knight's grip. Its all plastic, and tightens via a knob at the bottom which raises a piston with a 'stub' to lock into the rails. This grip works well with the Fobus M33 & M44 rails (I've been it on my carbine). The grip is a bit thinner than the Knights, but costs less than half.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:07:31 AM EDT
well, there are always drawbacks, and it's good to hear those as well. not to get nitpicky here, but an object's momentum is calculated by the product of its mass and velocity. p = mv the product of mass and acceleration is force according to Newton's second law of motion F = ma A heavier handguard would reduce recoil due to the increase in inertia- resistance to change in motion. If I can find a forward grip system really cheap I'll try it out.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:08:39 AM EDT
I shot varsity rifle in both HS and college. I NEVER saw anyone in the offhand employ anything other than a vertical hold, throwing the forward hip out in order to let the vertical lower arm tuck in and its elbow "rest" on the upper pelvis/belt area. Granted they were only .22s, but HEAVY Anschutz target rifles. I still fire my rifles and slug shotgun that way while in the offhand. Guess I am risking a mag well blowback on some of them... Can someone post a pic of what you mean by these forward pistol grips?
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:28:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:35:09 AM EDT
Comander Campy has spoken! :)
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:37:45 AM EDT
I don't recall ever seeing them on an M-14, M-1 Garand, AK-47/-74 or an M-2 carbine which leads me to belive its a typical gadget sold to gadget-prone AR shooters who have more dollars than sense.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:42:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 7:43:05 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Originally Posted By Troll: I don't recall ever seeing them on an M-14, M-1 Garand, AK-47/-74 or an M-2 carbine which leads me to belive its a typical gadget sold to gadget-prone AR shooters who have more dollars than sense.
View Quote
To be specific, Romanian issue AKMs are standard with a forward PG, as are Hungarian AMD65s. Control in FA is paramount in both cases though. The AMD might as well be a submachine gun. This doesn't change the fact that I agree with their non-utility.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:43:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pequa1: Can someone post a pic of what you mean by these forward pistol grips?
View Quote
[img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/081942.jpg[/img] not mine \/ [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/054105.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:45:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troll: I don't recall ever seeing them on an M-14, M-1 Garand, AK-47/-74 or an M-2 carbine which leads me to belive its a typical gadget sold to gadget-prone AR shooters who have more dollars than sense.
View Quote
your name fits [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 7:48:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 7:50:42 AM EDT by StariVojnik]
[img]http://www.nyguns.org/ar15shoot/Sept-29/DSC00550.JPG[/img] How'yall like my Romanian AK with foward grip?[:D]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 8:22:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: but...these guys are talking about a high speed/low drag device that does absolutely nothing in the world of the average civilian shooter...other than look cool.
View Quote
Campy, your right - if all you do is shoot from the bench. Take some 'urban rifle' classes where you are staying in low ready for a several minutes, with drill after drill of low ready to fire, then practice clearing drills. After 6-8 hours of this per day you'll see the benefit in reduced fatigue. It made a big believer out of me after my first tactical rifle class.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:07:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: And for a counter opinion - The hand guards are supported not gripped for greater accuracy which I understand isn’t a problem for the high-speed low-drag CQB operators who shoot at ranges out to eight to ten feet typically. I don't know of anyone who has the ability to catch a bullet in their hands nor move their hands downwards in 1/10th of a second which is what people are trying to do pulling the weapon downwards between shots. A nice muzzle brake will do this same thing automatically and better than anyone can with your hand. Sir Isaac Newton came up with a series of laws that are very difficult to violate on physics. Mass in motion has momentum and the amount is calculated with the formula mass x acceleration = momentum. A heavier handguard means greater momentum. Having a four inch mono-pod sitting out forward can limit the use of horizontal cover that you can use. It is mostly a matter of taste and who am I to tell you your taste.
View Quote
Well stated... It's more a faze than anything. Dirk
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:27:06 PM EDT
To each their own, I think they are goofy. But if it trips your trigger, go for it, it is your gun.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 5:44:20 PM EDT
Instead of forking out big bucks for a Knights system, one alternative if you have the M-4 handguards, is to buy a little weaver attachment that bolts to the lower handguard. Pop the heatshield out, install the little plate and weaver rail and put the heatshield back in. Then you can get one of several styles of handles from SOG. Do not make the mistake I did and buy the weaver attachment from SOG though. Theirs is made from plastic and when you tighten it down it breaks. Bye, bye $12. Instead get the same style but made from aluminum, from somewhere else. It should cost $20 and the handle is about $25-$40, depending on if you get the machined aluminum one or not.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:34:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyanide: To each their own, I think they are goofy. But if it trips your trigger, go for it, it is your gun.
View Quote
My sentiments exactly. When forward pistol grips made their splash in paintball, I tried them and promptly decided I didn't like them. There simply was no tangible benefit for me. As far as ARs go, I have the same opinion. Using the standard forward handguards is more than adequate for me and my intended usage. However, if there are people who want to put a FPG on their ARs, by all means, knock yourselves out. They're your weapons, after all.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 3:16:49 PM EDT
Does somebody make one that will fit on a weaver rail? I could bolt a spare weaver base onto the handguard real easy and give one a try before going for a legit setup. BTW, by SOG do you mean southern ohio gun? if so, I found nothing on their website about grips.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 3:22:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Sir Isaac Newton came up with a series of laws that are very difficult to violate on physics. Mass in motion has momentum and the amount is calculated with the formula mass x acceleration = momentum. A heavier handguard means greater momentum.
View Quote
I'm not sure where you're going with this. First, let me nitpick. Momentum is velocity x mass. Acceleration x mass is force, FYI. If you're implying with added weight comes added recoil I would have to disagree. The increased mass actually means decreased velocity of the recoil because a given round will only impart so much momentum on the gun/shooter. One last thing, the 4 inch monopod doesn't limit horizontal cover. The foregrip is actually smaller in height than a 20 or 30 round magazine.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 10:57:05 PM EDT
Tell you what. If you want to try it cheap, I'll sell you a Fobus vertical grip and 1/2 of an M33 carbine handguard set for $50. You really can't use both halves of the M33 anyway as they aren't optically stable, but 1/2 will replace one of your carbine handguards and let you give it a try. The vertical grip is easy to remove and then slide a cover over the rail for a conventional handguard. The set is brand new. I tried it and decided that I'm too old fashioned and just couldn't get a vert grip to work for me. Figured I hadn't put much money into the attempt. Here are a couple of pics. [img]http://www.isayeret.com/gear/samco/vg-2.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.isayeret.com/gear/samco/grip.gif[/img] Didn't intend to hijack the thread, but it seemed appropriate. Bottom line, your mileage may vary. Lots of people love them and can cite volumes of reasons why they work. For the rest of us, it just doesn't work.
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 11:21:20 PM EDT
The (original, civillian) Thompson's forward grip was designed for use when shooting from the hip. Ditto for the AK variety... The advantages of the forward PG are better control in certain positions, and what amounts to a more comfortable grip for some... Disadvantage is that it complicates accurate prone shooting (where the hand-cradling-handguard position is more natural...) As for my preferences, I'd have one on a drum-equipped AK, or a Colt SMG... On a 20" AR, I'll keep the straignt handguard...
Link Posted: 12/25/2003 11:32:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: I don't know of anyone who has the ability to catch a bullet in their hands nor move their hands downwards in 1/10th of a second which is what people are trying to do pulling the weapon downwards between shots. A nice muzzle brake will do this same thing automatically and better than anyone can with your hand.
View Quote
Your grip should remain consistant pulling the muzzle down and into your shoulder. You dont milk the thing between shots.
Having a four inch mono-pod sitting out forward can limit the use of horizontal cover that you can use.
View Quote
I dont close up to cover, so this has never been an issue for me.
Top Top