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Posted: 5/13/2004 7:12:26 AM EST
In light of the recent disgusting acts perpetrated by Arabs against Americans,

does it trouble you in the least to know that these cowards who shed innocent blood will never receive any more punishment than what they receive during their short lives here on Earth?

I mean, if you don't believe in God, according to you, when these people die they won't " burn in hell", as they obviously deserve.

Same as with Hitler, they all get a free pass !!

How does this concept make you feel ?

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:13:56 AM EST
Personally responsible for my own actions?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:16:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:17:55 AM EST by not_by_works]

Originally Posted By hielo:
Personally responsible for my own actions?



my question has nothing to do with your actions.

Care to try again ?

Oh and one more thing ; Personally responsible to whom ??
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:18:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:20:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Why does your question come down to how somebody feels about the subject?
I sure hope you do not use feelings as a sole barometer in other areas of life.



Certainly true, DoubleFeed, but our feelings (and beliefs) certainly are big contributors to how we conduct ourselves. They play into how we cope with both world and personal events.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:20:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By not_by_works:

Originally Posted By hielo:
Personally responsible for my own actions?



my question has nothing to do with your actions.

Care to try again ?

Oh and one more thing ; Personally responsible to whom ??



I don't happen to be an atheist.

People who believe in religions tha thave an afterlife component, want fervently to beleive that punishment will be meted out to those who trangress, unfortunately, I just don't beleive it to be so. We are restrained by our own conscience, nothing more.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:23:59 AM EST
Well, if we expand your thesis, then there would be no "heaven" for being good. So what are they getting a free pass to? To be recycled back into the ground? What seems more interesting is that, in the asking, one has to wonder how you feel about atheists.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:24:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:24:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Danforth:
Well, if we expand your thesis, then there would be no "heaven" for being good. So what are they getting a free pass to? To be recycled back into the ground? What seems more interesting is that, in the asking, one has to wonder how you feel about atheists.



Who are you responding to?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:25:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By hielo:

Originally Posted By not_by_works:

Originally Posted By hielo:
Personally responsible for my own actions?



my question has nothing to do with your actions.

Care to try again ?

Oh and one more thing ; Personally responsible to whom ??



I don't happen to be an atheist.

People who believe in religions tha thave an afterlife component, want fervently to beleive that punishment will be meted out to those who trangress, unfortunately, I just don't beleive it to be so. We are restrained by our own conscience, nothing more.



I find myself in agreement with Hielo here.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:28:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:30:06 AM EST by not_by_works]

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Why does your question come down to how somebody feels about the subject?
I sure hope you do not use feelings as a sole barometer in other areas of life.



Why do you insist on answering a question with a question? Regardless, I will answer yours. I don't use " feelings " as a sole barometer in any area of my life. Thanks for your concern, though.

Having said that, let me rephrase the question.

"What is your response to this ? "
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:29:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:30:00 AM EST by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:30:34 AM EST
Very interesting thought, Hielo. I really am curious. Where does the conscience come from? Is it nothing more than an abstract collection of values and ideals gained from a person's experience, or does it come from a more divine/eternal source?

If it comes from a hodgepodge of personal experiences and teachings, who are you or I to criticize the terrorists who cut off Berg's head? Morality would become very relative if there wasn't a difinitive source for a conscience.

If a conscience comes from an eternal source, then there are moral absolutes, and we can judge the goodness or badness of an action.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:32:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:33:46 AM EST by 2whiskeyP]
Remember, he was murdered in the name of god(or allah as the case may be)
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:33:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:36:21 AM EST by not_by_works]

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By not_by_works:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Why does your question come down to how somebody feels about the subject?
I sure hope you do not use feelings as a sole barometer in other areas of life.



Why do insist on answering a question with a question? Regardless, I will answer yours. I don't use " feelings " as a sole barometer in any area of my life. Thanks for your concern, though.

Having said that, let me rephrase the question.

"What is your response to this ? "

The criminal bastards need to die by the most efficient means possible.
What else is there?



So, what you're saying is this; that it's all right with you if they receive the same ending in life as every other person.

Personally, I have a big problem with that, but I appreciate your answering my question.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:35:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
...can you give a rational explanation for your beliefs?
If you cannot, your beliefs need examination.



Fair enough question. Give me a few minutes to gather my thoughts and I'll respond to you on that.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:36:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:38:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:39:10 AM EST by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By not_by_works:
I mean, if you don't believe in God, according to you, when these people die they won't " burn in hell", as they obviously deserve.

Yes, but according to you wonderful Christians, after Nick Berg's head was hacked off, he woke up in Hell because he's a Jew. How's that for justice?



Same as with Hitler, they all get a free pass !!

Well, "same as Hitler", all the Jews who died in the Concentration Camps, then met a MORE painful fate in the Pit of Fire.... for all eternitiy.
Just because they were Jews (which is the exact same reason why they were in the Camps. Ironic, huh?)
Thank you very much.



How does this concept make you feel ?



Very impressed with the Lord's plan for torturing those who have different beliefs.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:38:53 AM EST
I am an athiest.
Are you saying that I should believe in your god and therefore believe in a life after death, to increase your feelings of revenge?
You need to understand that belief in religion is not a choice, it's not a switch that is turned on or off.
As Frued said "Religion is like art, you either get or you don't" and I don't get it. Faith is belief with out proof . I don't have faith in gods or devils and I'm not going to pretend I do just to make you feel better.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:05 AM EST
Your question is directed at a non-religious group but you are asking it from a religious point of view.

I don't understand what kind of answer you want...

Are you saying that the atheists (which I don't happen to be) are supposed to feel bad because terrorists aren't punished in hell after they die? Seeing as atheists don't believe in hell, how can you expect them to "feel" anything regarding this issue?

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Very interesting thought, Hielo. I really am curious. Where does the conscience come from? Is it nothing more than an abstract collection of values and ideals gained from a person's experience, or does it come from a more divine/eternal source?

If it comes from a hodgepodge of personal experiences and teachings, who are you or I to criticize the terrorists who cut off Berg's head? Morality would become very relative if there wasn't a difinitive source for a conscience.

If a conscience comes from an eternal source, then there are moral absolutes, and we can judge the goodness or badness of an action.



Animals by and large do not kill members of their own species without a viable reason. Those reasons, might encompass things like, access to females for breeding or killing the young of a competitor. We have placed many restrictions on our fellow humans as to what is right and what is wrong. We as a society have decided on acceptable human behaivor. If someone disregards what we as a society have decided, we will punish or kill them for it.

I know many people want to distance themselves from the other animals, and by creating our gods and our rules we may very well have. But they are creations of man, and nothing else.

As to the creatures who beheaded our fellow American, they have broken our accepted rules, and they will be punished for it. That punishment might come from us, or it might come form them, themselves. Or, and just as likely, no punishment will befall them. The world is a jungle after all, and jungle rules often times trump our man made ones. Thats kind of a scarey thought for most people, (I know it is for me). Sometimes people do bad things and get away with it with no punishment at all.

Such is life.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP:
Remember, he was murdered in the name of god(or allah as the case may be)




allah and the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob cannot be one and the same !!
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:41:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:41:20 AM EST by Cincinnatus]
Hey, not_by_works:

Nick Berg was a Jew.
Where'd he go when he died?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:42:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By not_by_works:

Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP:
Remember, he was murdered in the name of god(or allah as the case may be)




allah and the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob cannot be one and the same !!



It all depends on how badly you want them to be. They exist in your imaginiation only, to begin with, so you should have no trouble convincing yourself that they are one and the same.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:46:57 AM EST
Typical.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:47:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:

Originally Posted By not_by_works:
I mean, if you don't believe in God, according to you, when these people die they won't " burn in hell", as they obviously deserve.

Yes, but according to you wonderful Christians, after Nick Berg's head was hacked off, he woke up in Hell because he's a Jew. How's that for justice?



Same as with Hitler, they all get a free pass !!

Well, "same as Hitler", all the Jews who died in the Concentration Camps, then met a MORE painful fate in the Pit of Fire.... for all eternitiy.
Just because they were Jews (which is the exact same reason why they were in the Camps. Ironic, huh?)
Thank you very much.



How does this concept make you feel ?



Very impressed with the Lord's plan for torturing those who have different beliefs.



Pretty much the same way I think about the situation.

A loving, caring, compassionate God that condemns all those who believe differently than what is written in a book to an eternity of pain, dispair, and torture. Sounds like a great being to look up to and worship.

I can't see the creator of all things being so intolerant. If he is the one who gave us the ability to reason and contradict, why would he condemn us for using that ability instead of blindly following what someone else tell us?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:47:39 AM EST
Either way you cut it killing your enemies serves its purpose by removing them from your sight forever whether you believe in god or not. I suppose the aetheist way of seeing it even good people suffer the fate of the murderer, but thats how it is in that belief system.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:48:52 AM EST
Life is unfair.

Just like all the people according to your God, who being good souls, but not knowing Jesus can never know eternal peace.

Wouldn't it be ironic it Islam turns out to be the "correct" faith? and the bad guys after being destroyed by a Predator drone do in fact go to their 72 virgins.

Their faith is so strong they are doing their God's bidding every day.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:59:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 8:02:54 AM EST by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By SS109:
Life is unfair.

Just like all the people according to your God, who being good souls, but not knowing Jesus can never know eternal peace.

Wouldn't it be ironic it Islam turns out to be the "correct" faith? and the bad guys after being destroyed by a Predator drone do in fact go to their 72 virgins.

Their faith is so strong they are doing their God's bidding every day.



Yup.


There are a lot of Christians out there that don't seem to realize that all religions are doing the same thing they are, just in a different way. Just like the "the Arabic god isn't the same God I worship!!" line. All religions have their God, and they are all the same being. It is just the way that he/she/it/they are worshipped that is different. So in essence, you are all worshipping the same God; you just have different standards by which you are worshipping.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:00:31 AM EST
It annoys me when people say things like "well he'll get his punishment from God one day."
I believe that justice must be carried out in this life! If you harm one of my family or friends, I'm coming after you. In this lifetime, as it may be. To give someone a pass because you feel they will be sent to hell when they die in however many years is evil too.

Let me ask this:
How do you know that God will punish these people in the afterlife? Maybe a compassionate God forgave Hitler and let him into heaven? How can you know how God judges people? Who are you to decide if God will send someone to heaven or hell?
This is why I beleive Justice must be ours in this lifetime.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:03:18 AM EST
Here I go.

I believe that there is a God, and therefore a source for moral absolutes, for several reasons.

1. Life.
It is illogical to assume that life came to this planet without divine intervention. For life to exist there must be the ability to consume materials, metabolize those materials, get rid of wase, and reproduce (requiring a genetic code). Even the simplist bacteria must be able to do these things. Most life forms must do much more to survive.

Now, how likely is it for life to be spontaneously created? Despite the common answer given by many scientists, "given enough time and the right elements, it is bound to happen eventually," they are really lying and they know it. I'll share a simple example of why it couldn't spontaneously happen. In a given mountain are all the elements required to make a watch (the type you wind-up). Is a watch ever going to be spontaneously created from that mountain? Of course not. But what if lightning strikes it a trillion times or more? Nope. Still wouldn't happen. Here's why. The metals in the mountain would have to be accidently formed into watch parts by the lightning. Not only that, but these parts would have to somehow be brought together, in the right order and facing the right direction. Then something would have to wind the watch so it starts working. We know that, left to itself, any given system tends to go towards disorganization and not more organization, unless intelligent energy is spent organizing things. Think of your bedroom. It doesn't get cleaner and more organized unless you put conscious effort into it.

The above example is more likely to happen than for life to spontaneously be created. After all, the watch doesn't even have to reproduce itself or perpetually consume elements around it.

So if lightning strikes some oceanic soup and manages to create amino acids, how would life come from that? The amino acids would have to sort themselves out and organize themselves into proteins. Next, those proteins would have to somehow bind themselves together to create an organism. That organism would have to be able to metabolize elements and have a genetic code. Then, using that genetic code, the organism would have to create a process to reproduce itself. Otherwise, the organism would die out and be both the first and last of its species on the planet. What I have just described is impossible without direct, intelligent manipulation. Even then, it would take greater abilities than man now posesses.

Life, therefore, has to be the result of divine intervention. There is no other logical explanation.

Seeing how much space it took to detail my first reason for believing in God, I'll stop here unless someone wants more reasons.

Can anyone refute my logic in this example? Is there another logical explanation for life existing on this planet? Before anyone mentions aliens, I'll have to ask where they would have come from, since it still refers back to my original example.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:05:13 AM EST
Don't we have enough problems with a certain religion, that is bent on our destruction, without trying to stir up crap with others? Seems the original post was a way of finding someone to lash out at because the guy feels unable to address the real bad guys.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:05:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Here I go.

I believe that there is a God, and therefore a source for moral absolutes, for several reasons.

1. Life.
It is illogical to assume that life came to this planet without divine intervention. For life to exist there must be the ability to consume materials, metabolize those materials, get rid of wase, and reproduce (requiring a genetic code). Even the simplist bacteria must be able to do these things. Most life forms must do much more to survive.

Now, how likely is it for life to be spontaneously created? Despite the common answer given by many scientists, "given enough time and the right elements, it is bound to happen eventually," they are really lying and they know it. I'll share a simple example of why it couldn't spontaneously happen. In a given mountain are all the elements required to make a watch (the type you wind-up). Is a watch ever going to be spontaneously created from that mountain? Of course not. But what if lightning strikes it a trillion times or more? Nope. Still wouldn't happen. Here's why. The metals in the mountain would have to be accidently formed into watch parts by the lightning. Not only that, but these parts would have to somehow be brought together, in the right order and facing the right direction. Then something would have to wind the watch so it starts working. We know that, left to itself, any given system tends to go towards disorganization and not more organization, unless intelligent energy is spent organizing things. Think of your bedroom. It doesn't get cleaner and more organized unless you put conscious effort into it.

The above example is more likely to happen than for life to spontaneously be created. After all, the watch doesn't even have to reproduce itself or perpetually consume elements around it.

So if lightning strikes some oceanic soup and manages to create amino acids, how would life come from that? The amino acids would have to sort themselves out and organize themselves into proteins. Next, those proteins would have to somehow bind themselves together to create an organism. That organism would have to be able to metabolize elements and have a genetic code. Then, using that genetic code, the organism would have to create a process to reproduce itself. Otherwise, the organism would die out and be both the first and last of its species on the planet. What I have just described is impossible without direct, intelligent manipulation. Even then, it would take greater abilities than man now posesses.

Life, therefore, has to be the result of divine intervention. There is no other logical explanation.

Seeing how much space it took to detail my first reason for believing in God, I'll stop here unless someone wants more reasons.

Can anyone refute my logic in this example? Is there another logical explanation for life existing on this planet? Before anyone mentions aliens, I'll have to ask where they would have come from, since it still refers back to my original example.



If all things must be created, where did God come from?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:07:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Here I go.

I believe that there is a God, and therefore a source for moral absolutes, for several reasons.

1. Life.
It is illogical to assume that life came to this planet without divine intervention. For life to exist there must be the ability to consume materials, metabolize those materials, get rid of wase, and reproduce (requiring a genetic code). Even the simplist bacteria must be able to do these things. Most life forms must do much more to survive.

Now, how likely is it for life to be spontaneously created? Despite the common answer given by many scientists, "given enough time and the right elements, it is bound to happen eventually," they are really lying and they know it. I'll share a simple example of why it couldn't spontaneously happen. In a given mountain are all the elements required to make a watch (the type you wind-up). Is a watch ever going to be spontaneously created from that mountain? Of course not. But what if lightning strikes it a trillion times or more? Nope. Still wouldn't happen. Here's why. The metals in the mountain would have to be accidently formed into watch parts by the lightning. Not only that, but these parts would have to somehow be brought together, in the right order and facing the right direction. Then something would have to wind the watch so it starts working. We know that, left to itself, any given system tends to go towards disorganization and not more organization, unless intelligent energy is spent organizing things. Think of your bedroom. It doesn't get cleaner and more organized unless you put conscious effort into it.

The above example is more likely to happen than for life to spontaneously be created. After all, the watch doesn't even have to reproduce itself or perpetually consume elements around it.

So if lightning strikes some oceanic soup and manages to create amino acids, how would life come from that? The amino acids would have to sort themselves out and organize themselves into proteins. Next, those proteins would have to somehow bind themselves together to create an organism. That organism would have to be able to metabolize elements and have a genetic code. Then, using that genetic code, the organism would have to create a process to reproduce itself. Otherwise, the organism would die out and be both the first and last of its species on the planet. What I have just described is impossible without direct, intelligent manipulation. Even then, it would take greater abilities than man now posesses.

Life, therefore, has to be the result of divine intervention. There is no other logical explanation.

Seeing how much space it took to detail my first reason for believing in God, I'll stop here unless someone wants more reasons.

Can anyone refute my logic in this example? Is there another logical explanation for life existing on this planet? Before anyone mentions aliens, I'll have to ask where they would have come from, since it still refers back to my original example.



Ain't nature great? Given a hundred million years, proto-life springs from the mud, another 500 million years and you have life as we know it.

You know how long a million years is, can you fathom how long 500 million years is?

It just is not logical to think anything else.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:07:45 AM EST
Oh boy, here we go....

1: Not an atheist, but an agnostic
2: I don't need a religion to have a basic respect for someone's life.
3: The basic tenet I believe in is "your rights end where mine begin, and vice versa". No religion needed.
4: If Heaven is such a Paradise, why do people do everything they can to forestall death? (that one was thrown in for humorous thought, but will probably raise the ire of some).
5: The death of those who beheaded Mr. Berg is all the punishment I can concern myself with.
6: Hitler died in shame and fear by his own hand. That's not exactly a free ride. Living out his days on a tropical island in exile would have been a free ride. Was it punishment enough for what he did? NO. But am I going to lie awake at night caring that he isn't burning in hell? Nah. Besides, until Judgement Day, would he already be there? Did he get a pass? Or does he have to be Judged with the rest? And that is a serious question.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:11:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Why does your question come down to how somebody feels about the subject?
I sure hope you do not use feelings as a sole barometer in other areas of life.



Certainly true, DoubleFeed, but our feelings (and beliefs) certainly are big contributors to how we conduct ourselves. They play into how we cope with both world and personal events.

They are. However, can you give a rational explanation for your beliefs?
If you cannot, your beliefs need examination.



Would you apply that same criteria to religous beliefs?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:13:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By hielo:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Here I go.

I believe that there is a God, and therefore a source for moral absolutes, for several reasons.

1. Life.
It is illogical to assume that life came to this planet without divine intervention. For life to exist there must be the ability to consume materials, metabolize those materials, get rid of wase, and reproduce (requiring a genetic code). Even the simplist bacteria must be able to do these things. Most life forms must do much more to survive.

Now, how likely is it for life to be spontaneously created? Despite the common answer given by many scientists, "given enough time and the right elements, it is bound to happen eventually," they are really lying and they know it. I'll share a simple example of why it couldn't spontaneously happen. In a given mountain are all the elements required to make a watch (the type you wind-up). Is a watch ever going to be spontaneously created from that mountain? Of course not. But what if lightning strikes it a trillion times or more? Nope. Still wouldn't happen. Here's why. The metals in the mountain would have to be accidently formed into watch parts by the lightning. Not only that, but these parts would have to somehow be brought together, in the right order and facing the right direction. Then something would have to wind the watch so it starts working. We know that, left to itself, any given system tends to go towards disorganization and not more organization, unless intelligent energy is spent organizing things. Think of your bedroom. It doesn't get cleaner and more organized unless you put conscious effort into it.

The above example is more likely to happen than for life to spontaneously be created. After all, the watch doesn't even have to reproduce itself or perpetually consume elements around it.

So if lightning strikes some oceanic soup and manages to create amino acids, how would life come from that? The amino acids would have to sort themselves out and organize themselves into proteins. Next, those proteins would have to somehow bind themselves together to create an organism. That organism would have to be able to metabolize elements and have a genetic code. Then, using that genetic code, the organism would have to create a process to reproduce itself. Otherwise, the organism would die out and be both the first and last of its species on the planet. What I have just described is impossible without direct, intelligent manipulation. Even then, it would take greater abilities than man now posesses.

Life, therefore, has to be the result of divine intervention. There is no other logical explanation.

Seeing how much space it took to detail my first reason for believing in God, I'll stop here unless someone wants more reasons.

Can anyone refute my logic in this example? Is there another logical explanation for life existing on this planet? Before anyone mentions aliens, I'll have to ask where they would have come from, since it still refers back to my original example.



Ain't nature great? Given a hundred million years, proto-life springs from the mud, another 500 million years and you have life as we know it.

You know how long a million years is, can you fathom how long 500 million years is?

It just is not logical to think anything else.



Hielo,
Are you suggesting that, given enough time, a watch could be spontaneously created (and work)? I don't care if its one day, a hundred years, or 500 million years. It isn't going to happen. Neither are amino acids going to organized themselves into proteins which then organize themselves into an organizm which then creates a genetic code and process for reproducing itself. I really think you have to lie to yourself to believe that such a thing is possible. It can only happen with intelligent intervention.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:15:55 AM EST
So God will punish people after they commit crimes but will not lift a finger to help before hand ?
I agree with the idea that Fear of hell keeps the sheep in line.

I dont do the Right thing because I fear I will go to hell. I do the right thing because its the right thing to do



I perfer to think assholes come back as a cockroachs and live in the sewer or something like that.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:18:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

If all things must be created, where did God come from?



A very good question. He would have to be eternal, wouldn't he. Right now I don't have the capacity to explain the origins of eternity.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:18:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Very interesting thought, Hielo. I really am curious. Where does the conscience come from? Is it nothing more than an abstract collection of values and ideals gained from a person's experience, or does it come from a more divine/eternal source?

If it comes from a hodgepodge of personal experiences and teachings, who are you or I to criticize the terrorists who cut off Berg's head? Morality would become very relative if there wasn't a difinitive source for a conscience.

If a conscience comes from an eternal source, then there are moral absolutes, and we can judge the goodness or badness of an action.



What you describe is built into us by evolution. Humans who cooperated and respected others survived more than those that did not.

The larger question is why do you need "God" holding reward or punishment over your head to do the right thing?

And if those who believe as you do were so afraid of divine retribution, why would so much wrong be done.

I'm afraid you're making more of this than there needs be to answer the question. Its a lot simpler and doesn't need god to explain it.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:19:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By hielo:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Here I go.

I believe that there is a God, and therefore a source for moral absolutes, for several reasons.

1. Life.
It is illogical to assume that life came to this planet without divine intervention. For life to exist there must be the ability to consume materials, metabolize those materials, get rid of wase, and reproduce (requiring a genetic code). Even the simplist bacteria must be able to do these things. Most life forms must do much more to survive.

Now, how likely is it for life to be spontaneously created? Despite the common answer given by many scientists, "given enough time and the right elements, it is bound to happen eventually," they are really lying and they know it. I'll share a simple example of why it couldn't spontaneously happen. In a given mountain are all the elements required to make a watch (the type you wind-up). Is a watch ever going to be spontaneously created from that mountain? Of course not. But what if lightning strikes it a trillion times or more? Nope. Still wouldn't happen. Here's why. The metals in the mountain would have to be accidently formed into watch parts by the lightning. Not only that, but these parts would have to somehow be brought together, in the right order and facing the right direction. Then something would have to wind the watch so it starts working. We know that, left to itself, any given system tends to go towards disorganization and not more organization, unless intelligent energy is spent organizing things. Think of your bedroom. It doesn't get cleaner and more organized unless you put conscious effort into it.

The above example is more likely to happen than for life to spontaneously be created. After all, the watch doesn't even have to reproduce itself or perpetually consume elements around it.

So if lightning strikes some oceanic soup and manages to create amino acids, how would life come from that? The amino acids would have to sort themselves out and organize themselves into proteins. Next, those proteins would have to somehow bind themselves together to create an organism. That organism would have to be able to metabolize elements and have a genetic code. Then, using that genetic code, the organism would have to create a process to reproduce itself. Otherwise, the organism would die out and be both the first and last of its species on the planet. What I have just described is impossible without direct, intelligent manipulation. Even then, it would take greater abilities than man now posesses.

Life, therefore, has to be the result of divine intervention. There is no other logical explanation.

Seeing how much space it took to detail my first reason for believing in God, I'll stop here unless someone wants more reasons.

Can anyone refute my logic in this example? Is there another logical explanation for life existing on this planet? Before anyone mentions aliens, I'll have to ask where they would have come from, since it still refers back to my original example.



Ain't nature great? Given a hundred million years, proto-life springs from the mud, another 500 million years and you have life as we know it.

You know how long a million years is, can you fathom how long 500 million years is?

It just is not logical to think anything else.



Hielo,
Are you suggesting that, given enough time, a watch could be spontaneously created (and work)? I don't care if its one day, a hundred years, or 500 million years. It isn't going to happen. Neither are amino acids going to organized themselves into proteins which then organize themselves into an organizm which then creates a genetic code and process for reproducing itself. I really think you have to lie to yourself to believe that such a thing is possible. It can only happen with intelligent intervention.



Do you know what an Amino acid is? Do you know how many there are (go ahead and google it, I'll wait). Do you know how simple it is to create an amino acid, evn outside of a lab, with nothing more than a handful of chemicals and an electrical charge?

The earth has created any number of combinations of life, some stuck, some didn't, amino acids were one of them that stuck.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:22:40 AM EST
I suspect our original poster is now sitting in the corner mumbling....

"I don't know what to believe, I don't know what to believe, I don't know what to believe....."
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:24:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 8:26:04 AM EST by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

If all things must be created, where did God come from?



A very good question. He would have to be eternal, wouldn't he. Right now I don't have the capacity to explain the origins of eternity.



Eternal or not, he still had to be created... he couldn't spontaneously appear (just like you said couldn't happen with life).

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:24:59 AM EST
Here is an interesting article from NASA: NASA AMINO ACID ARTICLE


NASA Scientists Create Amino Acids in Deep-Space-Like Environment

A team of scientists at the NASA Astrochemistry Laboratory today announced that they had created amino acids in conditions mimicking deep space. Amino acids are the basic components of proteins, from which all life is made. According to researcher Max Bernstein, "We found that amino acids can be made in the dense interstellar clouds where planetary systems and stars are made. Our experiments suggest that amino acids should be everywhere, wherever there are stars and planets."


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:26:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By hielo:

Do you know what an Amino acid is? Do you know how many there are (go ahead and google it, I'll wait). Do you know how simple it is to create an amino acid, evn outside of a lab, with nothing more than a handful of chemicals and an electrical charge?

The earth has created any number of combinations of life, some stuck, some didn't, amino acids were one of them that stuck.




Yes, I know there are lots of amino acids. Yes, I know that scientists can replicate the spontaneous creation of amino acids. That is where it stops. You see, spontaneous creation of amino acids creates both left and right-handed amino acids. All life comes from just one type (I believe it's the right-handed type). So no we have another level of complexity. The amino acids would have to sort themselves out into right and left-handed types, then do their organization into protiens...and finally an organism. If you don't believe me ask a molecular biologist.

BTW, molecular biology was my major before I switched to economics. Despite your condescending remark about googling amino acids, I'm not nearly as ignorant on the subject as you seem to think.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:27:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 8:36:06 AM EST by innocent_bystander]
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:28:03 AM EST
G-d replied to Moses: I was, I am, I will be. He exists outside of time and space. He created time and space so we could live here and relate to each other and to him as created beings. Therefore you can't ask the question, who was there before G-d. Time is his creation and we live in it.

Dwell on this. It is hard to conceive of a reality outside of our physicallity, but it can be done. Consider the movie the Matrix as an analogy. Those that are unaware that they are really in those pods think that the world is just their program. Our souls are the humans in the pods living in this physical world.

Other thoughts:

Guess my simple English sentence of 50 characters.

How long would it take you to methodically come up with a simple English sentence of 50 characters that I am thinking of using computers? 50^26 (or 10^81). Use 6 billion persons on Earth, each with a PC generating 1 million sentences per second. It would take billion x billion x billion times the age of the Universe (est at 20 billion years) to come up with my simple English sentence. Now explain DNA with 1 billion nuceotides long. 4^1,000,000,000 (much larger than 10^81). If there isn't enough time in the Universe to come up with my simple sentence, how do more complex systems like animals, trees, etc come into existence without a designer. If you see a design, there must be a designer.

The watch example is excellent. You know in your gut that the watch did not come about spontaneously but was created by someone. How can you assume somethng more complex like plants, trees, animals, and humans came about by accident.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:28:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By hielo:

Do you know what an Amino acid is? Do you know how many there are (go ahead and google it, I'll wait). Do you know how simple it is to create an amino acid, evn outside of a lab, with nothing more than a handful of chemicals and an electrical charge?

The earth has created any number of combinations of life, some stuck, some didn't, amino acids were one of them that stuck.




Yes, I know there are lots of amino acids. Yes, I know that scientists can replicate the spontaneous creation of amino acids. That is where it stops. You see, spontaneous creation of amino acids creates both left and right-handed amino acids. All life comes from just one type (I believe it's the right-handed type). So no we have another level of complexity. The amino acids would have to sort themselves out into right and left-handed types, then do their organization into protiens...and finally an organism. If you don't believe me ask a molecular biologist.

BTW, molecular biology was my major before I switched to economics. Despite your condescending remark about googling amino acids, I'm not nearly as ignorant on the subject as you seem to think.



One could only assume your ignorance, by your lack of understanding as to the basics of biology.

<shrug>, what can you do. You will beleive what you will.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:29:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

If all things must be created, where did God come from?



A very good question. He would have to be eternal, wouldn't he. Right now I don't have the capacity to explain the origins of eternity.



Eternal or not, he still had to be created... he couldn't spontaneously appear (just like you said couldn't happen with life).




Absolutely true. He couldn't spontaneously appear. Again, I admit that I can't explain the beginings/scope/ends of eternity and how it all works on that scale.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:32:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By not_by_works:
In light of the recent disgusting acts perpetrated by Arabs against Americans,

does it trouble you in the least to know that these cowards who shed innocent blood will never receive any more punishment than what they receive during their short lives here on Earth?

I mean, if you don't believe in God, according to you, when these people die they won't " burn in hell", as they obviously deserve.

Same as with Hitler, they all get a free pass !!

How does this concept make you feel ?




1)Atheists aren't the only people who don't believe in a literal hell. Many Christian sects don't believe in one either, and many other religions have different takes on the whole thing.
2)Life ain't fair. Sometimes bad people don't get what they deserve.
3)How does this make me feel? It makes me feel like we need to do the best we can to make sure that bad people have bad things happen to them in THIS lilfe.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:35:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
G-d replied to Moses: I was, I am, I will be. He exists outside of time and space. He created time and space so we could live here and relate to each other and to him as created beings. Therefore you can't ask the question, who was there before G-d. Time is his creation and we live in it.

Dwell on this. It is hard to conceive of a reality outside of our physicallity, but it can be done. Consider the movie the Matrix as an analogy. Those that are unaware that they are really in those pods think that the world is just their program. Our souls are the humans in the pods living in this physical world.

Other thoughts:

Guess my simple English sentence of 50 characters.

How long would it take you to methodically come up with a simple English sentence of 50 characters that I am thinking of using computers? 50^26 (or 10^81). Use 6 billion persons on Earth, each with a PC generating 1 million sentences per second. It would take billion x billion x billion times the age of the Universe (est at 20 billion years) to come up with my simple English sentence. Now explain DNA with 1 billion nuceotides long. 4^1,000,000,000 (much larger than 10^81). If there isn't enough time in the Universe to come up with my simple sentence, how do more complex systems like animals, trees, etc come into existence without a designer. If you see a design, there must be a designer.

The watch example is excellent. You know in your gut that the watch did not come about spontaneously but was created by someone. How can you assume somethng more complex like plants, trees, animals, and humans came about by accident.




As you said, exponetally it would take less and less time, as you had trillions upon trillions of combinations in the seas of varios amino acids, it would be but a matter of a short amount of time (million years? 100 million years) until something clicked.

Life is different than a watch, evolution, over the course of 500 millions years gave life a drive for reproduction and a tendency towards genetic dropouts. Given a population of viable amino acids of a septtillion individual experiements, it would be amazing if life did not spring forth. A watch has no ability to change, nor does it have the ability to reproduce itself.

Bad analogy.
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