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Posted: 2/21/2007 1:09:14 PM EST
Ok...

We've all heard all the 'privacy' arguments, how national ID is the 'mark of the beast' and so on...

Here's my question for you: How would YOU solve the present ID problem?



Right now, if I have your social security number, and one other piece of identifying information, I can BECOME you...

I can use your credit rating... I can open bank accounts, get loans and credit cards, and write checks that YOU are liable for...

I can speed, drive recklessly, crash into someone/something... Oh wait, YOU did it, with YOUR driver's license that looks just like ME...

I can commit fraud and other financial crimes in your name, which the police will arrest YOU for... Or I could rob/burglarize/murder, and leave evidence that will point at YOU, because I *AM* you....

Why? Because right now we have no way of proving that YOU really are YOU, and I am NOT...

And 'I' could be anyone - an illegal immigrant, a terrorist, or just a common criminal... It doesn't matter...

BTW... Once you find out, the burden of proof is on YOU... After all, the evidence says YOU did it...


What do you do about that?

And don't say 'ban credit cards & go back to gold coins' or something stupid like that...
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:11:31 PM EST
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:16:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:21:37 PM EST by distributor_of_pain]

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Because it just is dammit! It's tamper-PROOF!! Haven't you heard?!

To hell with your rediculous questions!!



...actually, you can't just start sticking chips into people. Noone would go for that.

First, you put the chip in a card.
Then, for those who want to add an extra layer of security, they can opt to have the chip placed in their hand so they can't get robbed, or lose the card.
Then, you make it MANDATORY. After all, only religious fanatics and terrorists (one in the same?) would oppose the idea.

Then, when people start getting their hands chopped off in robberies, you can opt to have it placed in your forehead.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:19:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
What do you do about that?



First step:

Get over the insane delusional notion that you can create 'heaven on earth' where technology has solved all the world's problems and we've finally outsmarted criminals once and for all, and just accept the system as it is.


There is NO chance of the national ID solving more problems than it creates.

None, zip, zilch, nada.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:20:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


I think terrorists are like vampires - they don't show up in pictures.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:25:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:27:38 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Because with one central ID, you can pair it with one central database which contains all valid IDs...

You can then validate every ID with a PIN number over the internet or phone, and have the system return a picture & number to cross-check against...

We do it in the military already...

Barring some hollywood-level 'Mission Impossible' bullshit, the system is fraud proof...

Nothing you do to a possible fake will matter - no matter how convincing it is, if it doesn't validate in the system, or you don't know the PIN, it will be detected...

Try that with 50 separate driver's-license/SSN combinations...

Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix...
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:33:33 PM EST
I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:34:17 PM EST
The burden of proof is always on the prosecution, and on the claimant.

You're not liable for other peoples fraudulent actions, or their crimes.

What sort of evidence do you think an identity thief could leave behind at a crime scene that would hold up in court? That's just silly. Much bigger worry is someone gets hold of a weapon or brass with your prints on it and means you harm.

Sure it could be a big hassle, but it isn't something I worry too terribly much about.

I think the arguement is fatally flawed, and I really don't care one way or the other about a national ID, since it already exists for all practical purposes since the SSNs and biometrics were incorporated into state drivers licenses years ago.

I just react badly to nonsense like the burden of proof is on me...total horseshit.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:34:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:37:10 PM EST by Primos]
Remove the illegal aliens,

who are ALONE responsible for at least 90% of ALL identity theft in this country.



Oh but wait, "it can't be done".




Perhaps we should build a damn barrier on the border, and slowly round up all illegal aliens.
But that is simply ridiculous, right?
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:36:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Because with one central ID, you can pair it with one central database which contains all valid IDs...

You can then validate every ID with a PIN number over the internet or phone, and have the system return a picture & number to cross-check against...

We do it in the military already...

Barring some hollywood-level 'Mission Impossible' bullshit, the system is fraud proof...

Nothing you do to a possible fake will matter - no matter how convincing it is, if it doesn't validate in the system, or you don't know the PIN, it will be detected...

Try that with 50 separate driver's-license/SSN combinations...

Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix...


Backwoods Alaska is sounding better and better to me.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:37:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Primos:
Remove the illegal aliens,

who are ALONE responsible for at least 90% of ALL identity theft in this country.



Oh but wait, "it can't be done".



You give the National ID crowd more ammo with the illegal alien stuff.
If they don't have papers, they are illegal aliens!

The illegal alien problem can be solved by agressive border security and making sure that buisnesses only hire citizens.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:38:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By K2QB3:
The burden of proof is always on the prosecution, and on the claimant.

You're not liable for other peoples fraudulent actions, or their crimes.

What sort of evidence do you think an identity thief could leave behind at a crime scene that would hold up in court? That's just silly. Much bigger worry is someone gets hold of a weapon or brass with your prints on it and means you harm.

Sure it could be a big hassle, but it isn't something I worry too terribly much about.

I think the arguement is fatally flawed, and I really don't care one way or the other about a national ID, since it already exists for all practical purposes since the SSNs and biometrics were incorporated into state drivers licenses years ago.

I just react badly to nonsense like the burden of proof is on me...total horseshit.


Tell that to the folks who've been prosecuted...

While in theory, the burden of proof is on the state...

If you did it, if the evidence puts YOU there, or the bad checks are from YOUR bank account... If the credit card is in YOUR name... Or if any of these things with YOUR name on it is left at the scene of a crime...

Who does the evidence point to?

I hope you have a good alibi...
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:39:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.


Free? Where does freedom ever get into this?

Are you saying that we should all have the 'freedom' to open bank & credit accounts in whatever names we want?

Who foots the bill for that?

There is no right to anonymity...
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:41:11 PM EST
Sounds like we could clean up more than one mess by eliminating Social Security.

Also, I may be mistaken but I believe that you need more than just a social security number to get a drivers license anymore. In Texas you must either present a current photo ID, or a birth certificate with 2 pieces of supporting identification. You also have to submit a thumb print, proof of vehicle registration and proof of insurance for that vehicle. The Texas driver's license is also very difficult to duplicate or forge.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:41:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:42:43 PM EST by Primos]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.


Free? Where does freedom ever get into this?

Are you saying that we should all have the 'freedom' to open bank & credit accounts in whatever names we want?

Who foots the bill for that?

There is no right to anonymity...


And the .gov does not have a "right" to track us all day, every day.
So we only have rights that the .gov says we have?


Your fascist propaganda is of no use here.

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:42:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Primos:
Remove the illegal aliens,

who are ALONE responsible for at least 90% of ALL identity theft in this country.



Oh but wait, "it can't be done".




Perhaps we should build a damn barrier on the border, and slowly round up all illegal aliens.
But that is simply ridiculous, right?


Absolutely, positively absurd...

Manpower & cost prohibitive...

And since we have no way to tell if you're a legal or illegal alien without an investigation, how do you propose we round them up?

Now, if we had a workable ID SYSTEM then we'd know who's legal and who's not...

Right now, it's quite a bit harder....

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:43:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Primos:
Remove the illegal aliens,

who are ALONE responsible for at least 90% of ALL identity theft in this country.



Oh but wait, "it can't be done".




Perhaps we should build a damn barrier on the border, and slowly round up all illegal aliens.
But that is simply ridiculous, right?


Absolutely, positively absurd...

Manpower & cost prohibitive...

And since we have no way to tell if you're a legal or illegal alien without an investigation, how do you propose we round them up?

Now, if we had a workable ID SYSTEM then we'd know who's legal and who's not...

Right now, it's quite a bit harder....



Keep thinking that. Keep carrying the water.

So if someone did not have one of those ID cards, would we deport them?

You know that answer to that.

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:44:32 PM EST
thedoctors308
Team Member
Free fight4yourrights!!!
PA, USA
Joined :: November 2004
Post Number :: 13631

I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.

im with u man no national id cards!

(Armed men of the state at check point) "Your papers NOW"

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:45:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Ok...

We've all heard all the 'privacy' arguments, how national ID is the 'mark of the beast' and so on...

Here's my question for you: How would YOU solve the present ID problem?



Right now, if I have your social security number, and one other piece of identifying information, I can BECOME you...

I can use your credit rating... I can open bank accounts, get loans and credit cards, and write checks that YOU are liable for...

I can speed, drive recklessly, crash into someone/something... Oh wait, YOU did it, with YOUR driver's license that looks just like ME...

I can commit fraud and other financial crimes in your name, which the police will arrest YOU for... Or I could rob/burglarize/murder, and leave evidence that will point at YOU, because I *AM* you....

Why? Because right now we have no way of proving that YOU really are YOU, and I am NOT...

And 'I' could be anyone - an illegal immigrant, a terrorist, or just a common criminal... It doesn't matter...

BTW... Once you find out, the burden of proof is on YOU... After all, the evidence says YOU did it...


What do you do about that?

And don't say 'ban credit cards & go back to gold coins' or something stupid like that...


Wrong. The FBI and multiple state governments have copies of my fingerprints. In most states now it is required that you submit a thumb print when applying for a driver's license. If they don't catch the identity theif when they submit a different thumb print then I can prove that I did not commit the crime through my finger prints and/or an aliby.

If it were that easy, then half the country would be in prison for crimes that they didn't commit. Social Security numbers are bought and sold all over this country every single day.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:46:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Primos:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.


Free? Where does freedom ever get into this?

Are you saying that we should all have the 'freedom' to open bank & credit accounts in whatever names we want?

Who foots the bill for that?

There is no right to anonymity...


And the .gov does not have a "right" to track us all day, every day.
Your fascist propaganda is of no use here.



Fascist propaganda?

You presume the government would even want to track you... [foilhat]

It's not about the government tracking anybody...



It's about the ability of business owners to do business (esp business involving non-cash payment, which is 90+% of our economy) without getting ripped off...

It's about making sure that everyone who gets a legal job is legally employable...

It's about making sure that only YOU can spend your money & use your credit...

Oh, but you're worried that 'Big Brother' wants to track your movements and count the number of purchases you made from Sportsman's Guide... Someone's delusional...
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:47:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:48:16 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Primos:
Remove the illegal aliens,

who are ALONE responsible for at least 90% of ALL identity theft in this country.



Oh but wait, "it can't be done".



You give the National ID crowd more ammo with the illegal alien stuff.
If they don't have papers, they are illegal aliens!

The illegal alien problem can be solved by agressive border security and making sure that buisnesses only hire citizens.


So how do you make sure that businesses only hire citizens, if you have no way for them to be sure that they are hiring a citizen?

The present system is so easily circumvented, it's a joke....

And last I checked 'no papers' is the very definition of an illegal alien today...
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:50:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix...



Yeah, despite the fact that there are federal laws prohibiting use of the SSN as a form of ID. It is illegal for any entity to require you to provide an SSN without offering you an alternative form of identification. You can get credit cards, buy guns and apply for loans without having to submit your SSN.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:50:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
So how do you make sure that businesses only hire citizens, if you have no way for them to be sure that they are hiring a citizen?...


Stop asking logical questions.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:52:06 PM EST
If my own goverment wanted to discuss my concerns about a national ID card, my response would be......

..."do your fucking job to secure our borders, prosecute and export illegal aliens, and then we'll discuss this. A national ID card will do no more for national security than something like ...oh I don't know.....gun control!?"
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:55:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 1:57:32 PM EST by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
So how do you make sure that businesses only hire citizens, if you have no way for them to be sure that they are hiring a citizen?...


Stop asking logical questions.


By instilling in businesses and hiring managers the fear of hiring an illegal. Crackdown on businesses that hire illegal aliens and the problem will fix itself. Make it a felony to employ an illegal alien. Impose minimum prison sentences and huge fines on hiring illegals, enforce it a few times and employers will get the message. And citizens can get around it by submitting birth certificates or other proof of citizenship.

That would also kill two birds with one stone. Eliminate the demand for illegal aliens workers and they'll stop coming here. Until you eliminate the demand though, there will always be someone willing to fill the demand.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:56:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
If my own goverment wanted to discuss my concerns about a national ID card, my response would be......

..."do your fucking job to secure our borders, prosecute and export illegal aliens, and then we'll discuss this. A national ID card will do no more for national security than something like ...oh I don't know.....gun control!?"



Exactly. They refuse to do one job, and think that some centralized information about us will fix it?

No. Fix the borders. Deport illegals. Then we'll talk.

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 1:59:48 PM EST
Freedom exists only where it is possible to operate outside the vision of the State.

Either we will always have criminals with the ability to operate or we will be vulnerable to tyranny of the State. Pick one.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:02:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.


+1 What about this concept is so hard for some people to grasp?
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:09:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Ok...

We've all heard all the 'privacy' arguments, how national ID is the 'mark of the beast' and so on...

Here's my question for you: How would YOU solve the present ID problem?


What present ID problem? This is not new. There has never, ever been a fraud-proof system, anywhere. The answer to fraud crimes today is the same as it has always been- enforcement and prosecution of criminals. Some things can only be combated with vigilance. There is not a final solution (please excuse the pun, I'm not making a nazi reference) to every problem that exists. Some solutions, like the one the national ID proposes, raise problems of their own. Sure we can make fraud nearly impossible, but then we will have a worse problem- vulnerability to tyranny.





Right now, if I have your social security number, and one other piece of identifying information, I can BECOME you...

I can use your credit rating... I can open bank accounts, get loans and credit cards, and write checks that YOU are liable for...

I can speed, drive recklessly, crash into someone/something... Oh wait, YOU did it, with YOUR driver's license that looks just like ME...

I can commit fraud and other financial crimes in your name, which the police will arrest YOU for... Or I could rob/burglarize/murder, and leave evidence that will point at YOU, because I *AM* you....

Why? Because right now we have no way of proving that YOU really are YOU, and I am NOT...

And 'I' could be anyone - an illegal immigrant, a terrorist, or just a common criminal... It doesn't matter...

BTW... Once you find out, the burden of proof is on YOU... After all, the evidence says YOU did it...


What do you do about that?

And don't say 'ban credit cards & go back to gold coins' or something stupid like that...


Enforce the laws currently on the books. Crime can never be stamped out permanently like a fire. It must be combated responsibly and thoroughly unto perpetuity.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:11:37 PM EST
Dave_A 1
The United Powers of ARFCOM 0

The national ID card makes sense. Hell you could completely get rid of 12 metric shit tons of paperwork that is all there to prove your identity with one piece of plastic/database entry.

I would love for someone at a later date or whenever to get a bill going that would deport everyone without a National ID card. It would be pretty sweet.

When states issued driver's licenses IIRC they didn't go around and put you in communist reeducation camps or swoop into your 10 digit grid coordinate with Blackhawks and shoot your dogs.

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:11:59 PM EST
No.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:12:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Primos:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Primos:
Remove the illegal aliens,

who are ALONE responsible for at least 90% of ALL identity theft in this country.



Oh but wait, "it can't be done".




Perhaps we should build a damn barrier on the border, and slowly round up all illegal aliens.
But that is simply ridiculous, right?


Absolutely, positively absurd...

Manpower & cost prohibitive...

And since we have no way to tell if you're a legal or illegal alien without an investigation, how do you propose we round them up?

Now, if we had a workable ID SYSTEM then we'd know who's legal and who's not...

Right now, it's quite a bit harder....



Keep thinking that. Keep carrying the water.

So if someone did not have one of those ID cards, would we deport them?

You know that answer to that.




Still waiting for an answer to that.

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:15:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By 11Badass:
Dave_A 1
The United Powers of ARFCOM 0

The national ID card makes sense. Hell you could completely get rid of 12 metric shit tons of paperwork that is all there to prove your identity with one piece of plastic/database entry.

I would love for someone at a later date or whenever to get a bill going that would deport everyone without a National ID card. It would be pretty sweet.

When states issued driver's licenses IIRC they didn't go around and put you in communist reeducation camps or swoop into your 10 digit grid coordinate with Blackhawks and shoot your dogs.




You really think that introducing yet ANOTHER law
will reduce "12 metric shit tons" of paperwork?


Kind of like "communism works, it just needs the right people to implement it."

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:33:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 2:40:52 PM EST by bradleyc]

Originally Posted By 11Badass:
Dave_A 1
The United Powers of ARFCOM 0

The national ID card makes sense.


It does make sense on the surface. It makes sense the same way that banning guns ends gun crime and that banning drugs eliminates junkies. This is a complex issue with complex solutions. A project this large is not to be undertaken without thorough consideration and evidence to suggest it will be successful.


Hell you could completely get rid of 12 metric shit tons of paperwork that is all there to prove your identity with one piece of plastic/database entry.

I would love for someone at a later date or whenever to get a bill going that would deport everyone without a National ID card. It would be pretty sweet.

When states issued driver's licenses IIRC they didn't go around and put you in communist reeducation camps or swoop into your 10 digit grid coordinate with Blackhawks and shoot your dogs.


If they CAN, they eventually WILL. This is the historical lesson of omnipotent government. These things may not happen as soon as the ID card gets into circulation, and it might not happen in our lives. But it WILL happen. Monsters will gain office, and their targeted people will have nowhere to hide and no recourse to take.

As far as eliminating all the other ID systems and paperwork, I think you are placing too much trust in the ability of the .gov to administer a large bureaucracy. The SSA, DHS, FAA, and the various state DMVs are examples of this. None of these are as efficient as any private businesss that keeps itself afloat. To believe the national ID project can be done correctly, by the government, on such a colossal scale is foolsih. Also, you are underestimating the ability of criminals to defraud the system. Even if the cards were tamper proof, the employees would not be. This national ID business is destined to be every bit of a failure as the SSA.

What happens when a federal employee loses your ID card or information? What happens if a criminal claims your identity and secures an ID card with your name on it? What happens when a federal employee receives money or threats from someone who wants you "deleted"? You have to keep Murphy in mind here.

I prefer having to prove citizenship with multiple documents and paperwork. Instead of having to defraud only one system, an ID theft has to defraud several in order to "become" you.

By the way, did you read my above post with the quotes forme the OP? It would be great if you'd quote it and add your counterpoints.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 3:05:48 PM EST
I can't believe there are people here advocating a "papers please" society.

Oh wait that's all tinfoil nonsense because National ID is nothing like that.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 3:23:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Yep, its just an excuse so the feds can control you that much more, my solution is deport the fucking illegals and shut the borders(especially the southern one) tighter than a virgins...uh purse
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 3:27:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Because with one central ID, you can pair it with one central database which contains all valid IDs...

You can then validate every ID with a PIN number over the internet or phone, and have the system return a picture & number to cross-check against...

We do it in the military already...

Barring some hollywood-level 'Mission Impossible' bullshit, the system is fraud proof...

Nothing you do to a possible fake will matter - no matter how convincing it is, if it doesn't validate in the system, or you don't know the PIN, it will be detected...

Try that with 50 separate driver's-license/SSN combinations...

Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix...


Backwoods Alaska is sounding better and better to me.

Can I come?
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 3:32:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 3:47:28 PM EST by HommieDaKlown]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Fascist propaganda?

You presume the government would even want to track you... [foilhat]

It's not about the government tracking anybody...



It's about the ability of business owners to do business (esp business involving non-cash payment, which is 90+% of our economy) without getting ripped off...

It's about making sure that everyone who gets a legal job is legally employable...

It's about making sure that only YOU can spend your money & use your credit...

Oh, but you're worried that 'Big Brother' wants to track your movements and count the number of purchases you made from Sportsman's Guide... Someone's delusional...


Because the government has never abused power or kept records of totally innocent people before.

COINTELPRO <== read.



The Final report of the Church Committee concluded:

"Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs", surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.

Governmental officials -- including those whose principal duty is to enforce the law --have violated or ignored the law over long periods of time and have advocated and defended their right to break the law.

The Constitutional system of checks and balances has not adequately controlled intelligence activities. Until recently the Executive branch has neither delineated the scope of permissible activities nor established procedures for supervising intelligence agencies. Congress has failed to exercise sufficient oversight, seldom questioning the use to which its appropriations were being put. Most domestic intelligence issues have not reached the courts, and in those cases when they have reached the courts, the judiciary has been reluctant to grapple with them."


Get real. A new system would have more holes than the old one. Don't think for a second that any technology is immune to being hacked and picked a part. People do this as a hobbie. Its why the diebold voting machines have been hacked its why every video game system that comes out gets hacked in weeks of release without the use of insider information or knowledge of their brand new proprietary hardware and software. Its why windows software constantly gets hacked despite Microsoft keeping its source code closed. There are legions of people that find weak points in large public systems for fun. Take for example New Yorks MTA. Read a 2600 or two next time you're at the bookstore. While you're at it pick up the Art of Deception and the Art of Intrusion both by Kevin Mitnick


If you ask me we should get rid of the broke Social Security system all together. Therefore no more abuse. If credit card companies want to issue their own for of identification for purposes of credit thats fine. But leave the government out of it.


Link Posted: 2/21/2007 3:40:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By distributor_of_pain:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Because it just is dammit! It's tamper-PROOF!! Haven't you heard?!

To hell with your rediculous questions!!



...actually, you can't just start sticking chips into people. Noone would go for that.

First, you put the chip in a card.
Then, for those who want to add an extra layer of security, they can opt to have the chip placed in their hand so they can't get robbed, or lose the card.
Then, you make it MANDATORY. After all, only religious fanatics and terrorists (one in the same?) would oppose the idea.

Then, when people start getting their hands chopped off in robberies, you can opt to have it placed in your forehead.


Dear D.O.P.e it appears that either you are a student of the Left Behind series of books or you truely are just plain evil and walking right into the plan as it has been prophitized. Just remember, all in its due time.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 4:43:16 PM EST
I know that you guys mostly hate the idea but those of us in the .mil already have our ID cards that do pretty much the same thing so I guess it's easier for us to not be so afraid of it...besides we'd be the ones swooping down in blackhawks to shoot your dogs

A national ID card would IMO be an awesome opportunity for the .gov to simplify the whole Identity thing instead of having to rely on 50 different state drivers licenses, social security cards, state ID cards, visas, green cards, etc. etc.

1 ID card. In a perfect world (the government would likely be too fucked to do it correctly) it could replace state driver's licenses and a myriad of other "cards" by storing the information in an database that cops could access just to verify that you have a license and shit like that...computers are everywhere now we might as well start embracing this techno shit...I am personally not afraid of anything the Demoncraps will try to do to it but then again I don't wear tin foil either.

If done correctly the national ID can be a great thing...if done incorrectly it would be a waste of time. I wouldn't want it done IMMEDIATELY because the .gov will obviously fuck it up and make it incredibly inefficient compared to what it could be...of course.. but give it a few years and have enough time for people to really think about the idea and I think it can be a great thing.

In reply to a previous poster, congress will never kick all the illegal aliens out...but we can hope. Maybe when common sense, justice, and the true will of their constituents can be heard in Congress we can get felons thrown the fuck out of our country but that is an entirely different issue. Also, a national ID should make it VERY tough for them to dupe businesses with out of state driver's licenses and things like that. At least that way the businesses that give a damn won't hire them...HOWEVER, those illegal aliens that are trying to get real jobs are the ones that we want to keep in this country anywas so who the fuck knows ---
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:36:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 5:41:29 PM EST by JonnySak]
What about the illegal aliens who don't need/want a drivers license?

What about US citizens who don't need/want a drivers license?

Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't get one?

Are we going to make it a crime if someone doesn't carry their papers?


this is nothing more than the US government taking a giant step down the road to serfdom.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:47:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'm willing to accept the risks.
It's the price we pay for living in a free society.


+1 What about this concept is so hard for some people to grasp?



INDEPENDENT THOUGHT ALARM!!!!~


You two obviously don't know what's best for you.The government is working hard to make things better for us.Please don't stop taking your pills,citizens.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:51:18 PM EST
An RFID in your body is the best way to go-implanted in every citizen at birth and self-destructs if tampered with.Updated with medical records and other pertinent information on a regular basis.

It could also replace money-"credits" could be uploaded on it-just like the new EZ pass-you walk in the store,take what you want,and are debited on the way out.No cashiers,no lines!!

I really like the way you think Dave_A!!It's all about progress-don't listen to the nay sayers.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:57:38 PM EST
The National ID card WILL be hacked/cracked.

It will make it easier for ID thieves to steal our identities, because instead of stealing our DL, Social Security, etc, they'll only need to steal one card, a card you have to carry with you at all times.

I leave my soc security and my permanent resident card at home because having it stolen is too much of a danger for me. That danger will be increased if you have to carry a national ID card with you at all times.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:36:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 6:41:21 PM EST by HommieDaKlown]

Originally Posted By 11Badass:
I know that you guys mostly hate the idea but those of us in the .mil already have our ID cards that do pretty much the same thing so I guess it's easier for us to not be so afraid of it...besides we'd be the ones swooping down in blackhawks to shoot your dogs

A national ID card would IMO be an awesome opportunity for the .gov to simplify the whole Identity thing instead of having to rely on 50 different state drivers licenses, social security cards, state ID cards, visas, green cards, etc. etc.

1 ID card. In a perfect world (the government would likely be too fucked to do it correctly) it could replace state driver's licenses and a myriad of other "cards" by storing the information in an database that cops could access just to verify that you have a license and shit like that...computers are everywhere now we might as well start embracing this techno shit...I am personally not afraid of anything the Demoncraps will try to do to it but then again I don't wear tin foil either.

If done correctly the national ID can be a great thing...if done incorrectly it would be a waste of time. I wouldn't want it done IMMEDIATELY because the .gov will obviously fuck it up and make it incredibly inefficient compared to what it could be...of course.. but give it a few years and have enough time for people to really think about the idea and I think it can be a great thing.

In reply to a previous poster, congress will never kick all the illegal aliens out...but we can hope. Maybe when common sense, justice, and the true will of their constituents can be heard in Congress we can get felons thrown the fuck out of our country but that is an entirely different issue. Also, a national ID should make it VERY tough for them to dupe businesses with out of state driver's licenses and things like that. At least that way the businesses that give a damn won't hire them...HOWEVER, those illegal aliens that are trying to get real jobs are the ones that we want to keep in this country anywas so who the fuck knows ---



DHS is apparently already planing on outsourcing the linked database to a private company.

The government NEVER does anything efficiently when it comes to large scale social programs. Why would REALID be a model of efficiency?

Getting a Military ID is voluntary. REALID isn't.

The REAL ID Act was attached as a rider to a large Military Spending bill so it wouldn't have a chance of being voted down. So from the get go it wasn't even passed in a Honest manner.

Again this is another expansion of the Federal Government and reduces the States rights, which goes directly against the grain of the Constitution. Politically I'm for having a smaller federal Government. This law does not agree with my political ideology. (this is just a personal reason why I don't like it)


REALID provides no real additional security. The only things required to get a REAL ID are:
* A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate.
* Documentation of birthdate.
* Documentation showing name and principal residence address.
Doesn't sound too different than what states require.

So assuming someone already has a drivers license, and can provide a false birth certificate and maybe a utility bill showing address, they get a REALID.

For those that are aware of the "North American Union" concept that will soon be shoved down our throats will be happy to know that the REALID act originally contained portions to pave the way to that. Thankfully it never made it in the final legislation. But don't think for a second another rider won't be passed later on to add this removed section. The removed section :

It would have required states to sign a new compact known as the Driver License Agreement (DLA) as written by the Joint Driver's License Compact/ Non-Resident Violators Compact Executive Board with the support of AAMVA which would have required states to give reciprocity to those provinces and territories in Canada and those states in Mexico that joined the DLA and complied with its provisions. As a part of the DLA, states would be required to network their databases with these provinces, territories and Mexican states. The databases that are accessible would include sensitive information such as Social Security numbers, home addresses and other information. The foreign states and provinces are not required to abide with the Drivers Privacy Protection Act (DPPA) and are free to access and use the sensitive information as they see fit.

Traffic violations would be required to be sent to the licensing jurisdiction and be recorded. The licensing jurisdiction would be required to act on the violation according to its own laws such as assigning points and insurance surcharges to the driver not only for violations reported from DLA members but also from non-DLA members as well. The DLA requires member states to treat non-DLA states as if they are DLA members concerning their drivers.

Since foreign countries are included, there are no procedures to deal with due process issues such as a U.S. driver getting cited for a violation in a foreign country. Such due process issues include nations, such as Mexico, which do not subscribe to the concept of innocent until proven guilty. Although not discussed, other countries could sign on to the DLA at a later time, such as the European Union countries.


It seems to me that the true purpose of the REALID was to make way for a North American Union, and a North American Highway system to span Mexico to Canada.
Its does little or nothing to actually establish identity over current state standards.

......

What else was passed in the REALID act?

Well there is a neat little provision.


An earlier law (Section 102 of Public Law 104-208, which is now part of 8 USC 1103) provided for improvements to physical barriers at the borders of the United States.

Subsection (a) of this law reads as follows: "The Attorney General, in consultation with the Commissioner of Immigration and Naturalization, shall take such actions as may be necessary to install additional physical barriers and roads (including the removal of obstacles to detection of illegal entrants) in the vicinity of the United States border to deter illegal crossings in areas of high illegal entry into the United States."

Subsection (b) orders the Attorney General to commence work on specified improvements to a 14-mile section of the existing border fence near San Diego, and allocates funds for the project.

Subsection (c) provides for waivers of laws that interfere with the work described in subsections (a) and (b). Prior to the Real ID Act, this subsection allowed waivers of only two specific federal environmental laws.

The Real ID Act amends the language of subsection (c) to make the following changes:

* Allows waivers of any and all laws "necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section."
* Gives this waiver authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security (rather than the Attorney General). Waivers are made at his sole discretion.
* Restricts court review of waiver decisions: "The district courts of the United States shall have exclusive jurisdiction to hear all causes or claims arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1). A cause of action or claim may only be brought alleging a violation of the Constitution of the United States. The court shall not have jurisdiction to hear any claim not specified in this subparagraph." Claims are barred unless filed within 60 days, and cases may be appealed "only upon petition for a writ of certiorari to the Supreme Court".

These waivers apply to barrier construction anywhere on the United States border (not just at San Diego, as some sources have erroneously reported).


This was changed at the last min as well. Originally the bill said DHS was immune to judicial review any law waivers it issued to construct ROADS and barriers.

Sounds like DHS now has the legal authority to finally build a suitable border barrier....but wait a min, this went into effect in 2005. Yet no large scale border construction. wonder if they will exercise the ability to build roads on the border with little or no legal problems.

real id information

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:44:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Because with one central ID, you can pair it with one central database which contains all valid IDs...



Excellent idea Comrade
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:46:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Because with one central ID, you can pair it with one central database which contains all valid IDs...

You can then validate every ID with a PIN number over the internet or phone, and have the system return a picture & number to cross-check against...

We do it in the military already...

Barring some hollywood-level 'Mission Impossible' bullshit, the system is fraud proof...

Nothing you do to a possible fake will matter - no matter how convincing it is, if it doesn't validate in the system, or you don't know the PIN, it will be detected...

Try that with 50 separate driver's-license/SSN combinations...

Hell, the SSN is completely unverifiable....But yet we use it as if it's a valid form of ID... Hmm, that MIGHT just be something to fix...


Also makes it real easy to track your citizens movements, purchases etc.

Very Orwellian. Thats why folks are anti-national ID. One central database for everything = police state.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:48:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By 11Badass:
Dave_A 1
The United Powers of ARFCOM 0

The national ID card makes sense. Hell you could completely get rid of 12 metric shit tons of paperwork that is all there to prove your identity with one piece of plastic/database entry.

I would love for someone at a later date or whenever to get a bill going that would deport everyone without a National ID card. It would be pretty sweet.

When states issued driver's licenses IIRC they didn't go around and put you in communist reeducation camps or swoop into your 10 digit grid coordinate with Blackhawks and shoot your dogs.



Great idea Comrade, it would make it much easier to track the subjects.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:59:53 PM EST
No matter what system is implace... It has too be Enforced/Protected, etc...
Unfortunately... It never is.....
Which leads too Every ID system being Stolen/Tampered, etc... with......
Only the "Heavens" could bring a 100% safe ID.......
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 10:13:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Yep, its just an excuse so the feds can control you that much more, my solution is deport the fucking illegals and shut the borders(especially the southern one) tighter than a virgins...uh purse


So, without ID how do you know who's illegal and who's not...

And how do we accomplish, with no troops/personell to spare, something that no nation has ever been able to do (secure a border the size of the US/MX one)?

Neither is viable...

Link Posted: 2/21/2007 10:20:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
How is a national ID card any less vulnerable than the various forms of ID mentioned in your post?


Yep, its just an excuse so the feds can control you that much more, my solution is deport the fucking illegals and shut the borders(especially the southern one) tighter than a virgins...uh purse


So, without ID how do you know who's illegal and who's not...

And how do we accomplish, with no troops/personell to spare, something that no nation has ever been able to do (secure a border the size of the US/MX one)?

Neither is viable...



Birth certificates, just as we've done for years.

We don't use our troops, we use the Border Patrol like they should be used, and political influence on the Mexican govt. to keep the illegals from crossing anyway.

Very simple.
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