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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/22/2005 9:38:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 9:49:11 AM EDT by Dino]
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?

ETA: Arowner mentioned the first commandment, but commandments are broken all the time. If I'm an adulterer, I'm also breaking the commandments. Many modern Jews don't live by inconvenient portions of the Law. Is this a more serious breach than the others?

Completely serious question, I'm just curious

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:41:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up



To put it simply, I suppose you will get judged by your failure to follow the first commandment.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:45:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 9:47:00 AM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up



To put it simply, I suppose you will get judged by your failure to follow the first commandment.



That is my assumption, but you and I both come at it from a Christian worldview. I was looking for our Jewish members to give their perspectives.

ooh, thanks made me think of another Q to add

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:53:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 9:54:22 AM EDT by Twister]

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?
Our first commandment is that you recognize that their is a G-d, so no. Though if you are following his laws then surely he would reveal himself to you and clear your head of doubt.

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?
See above.

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up




Cut it out or we'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Yes, we have a sense of humor.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:53:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up



___________________________________________

You raise two issues which are very insightful! And no, I didn't take offense to the mafia thing at all; though there is a good book about the Jewish mafia...I believe is has the title of "...they were good to their mothers!"

Anyway, as to a creed, the closest that Judaism has is the Shema (transliteration). This is found in the Torah, and means: "Listen, O Israel, The Lord is G-d, The Lord is One". Jews pray this three times per day as is referenced in the Torah. Abraham prayed at daylight (so we Jews so too pray), Issac prayed at noontime (so we Jews so too pray), and Jacob prayed at night (so we Jews so too pray).

Re: If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?

Jew believe that all who live a good life during the time on earth have a life in the "world to come". This is a great deal (IMHO), as there is no bonus at the end. Our collective merit lies in the works we do on earth. The beauty of a life that transcends this is not an issue. Only how we try to make live on earth meaningful for ourselves and the rest of humanity. No bonus. No gratuity. Just that.

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:57:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?



WHy?

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:03:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Dino:

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?



WHy?

Sgatr15



_________________________

Why not?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:04:45 AM EDT



Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:12:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?

ETA: Arowner mentioned the first commandment, but commandments are broken all the time. If I'm an adulterer, I'm also breaking the commandments. Many modern Jews don't live by inconvenient portions of the Law. Is this a more serious breach than the others?

Completely serious question, I'm just curious

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up



___________________________________________________

Hi Dino...I apologize for not thoroughly reading your post.

Your reference that “…Many modern Jews don't live by inconvenient portions of the Law. Is this a more serious breach than the others?” is true to some extent---let me explain.

Jews of all denominations believe that within the Torah, there are 613 Commandments that G-d prescribed. NOTE: The following is a generalization.

Of these 613 Commandments, approximately 30% were relevant only during the time the Temple existed. The second 30% generally pertain to agricultural laws within the land of Israel (for instance, “gleanings of the field”).

Sure, some Jews eat pork or other treif…I leave it to those to live with that.

However, if Judaism is to be portrayed as to the offense of driving to synagogue on Shabbos, or to eat some treif; then the understanding of the core of Judaism has been missed.

Judaism, at its core, is a tenet of ethics.


Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:13:42 AM EDT
Just call us the"Purple Gang"


I think ScubaEd answered your question.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:13:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:



Sgat1r5



___________________________

Eloquent!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:16:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:



Sgat1r5



___________________________

Eloquent!





Sorry, I get tired of people that can't answer simple questions.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:17:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?
Our first commandment is that you recognize that their is a G-d, so no. Though if you are following his laws then surely he would reveal himself to you and clear your head of doubt.

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?
See above.

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up




Cut it out or we'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Yes, we have a sense of humor.



I knew yall had a sense of humor, It was directed towards any hyperactive mods :)

I'm contrasting your answer with the one Scuba_Ed gave and am still unclear.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:20:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?
Our first commandment is that you recognize that their is a G-d, so no. Though if you are following his laws then surely he would reveal himself to you and clear your head of doubt.

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?
See above.

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up




Cut it out or we'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Yes, we have a sense of humor.



I knew yall had a sense of humor, It was directed towards any hyperactive mods :)

I'm contrasting your answer with the one Scuba_Ed gave and am still unclear.




_________________________

'sorry Dino---lot's of time-latent messages, I believe we lost our "thread"...what point you mentioned that you have a Jewish question for?

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:21:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Dino:

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?



WHy?

Sgatr15



I'm interested in the differences in thought on this subject. Its an area I don't know much about, so I will also learn something.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:22:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:



Sgat1r5



___________________________

Eloquent!





Sorry, I get tired of people that can't answer simple questions.

Sgat1r5



__________________________________

Golly, I tried--what did I miss?

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:26:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?



Sorry for the slight hijack.

I know many Jews who are atheists. Same as some Catholics, Baptists, etc. For many their religion is nothing more than a family tradition vs an actual belief.

I think its common in any religion.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:27:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:30:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?
Our first commandment is that you recognize that their is a G-d, so no. Though if you are following his laws then surely he would reveal himself to you and clear your head of doubt.

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?
See above.

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up




Cut it out or we'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Yes, we have a sense of humor.



I knew yall had a sense of humor, It was directed towards any hyperactive mods :)

I'm contrasting your answer with the one Scuba_Ed gave and am still unclear.




_________________________

'sorry Dino---lot's of time-latent messages, I believe we lost our "thread"...what point you mentioned that you have a Jewish question for?

Ed



Specifically, if, as an atheist, I live an ethical life in all other ways (with allowances for human failing) and attempt to live by the Law that is still viewed as valid, would I have a place in the world to come?

Think of it as Pascal's Wager from a Jewish perspective.

From a Christian perspective, Pascal's wager is foolish as the primary concentration is on belief. If you don't believe, you burn. Your characterization of Judaism as an ethical belief system got me curious.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:33:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Jew believe that all who live a good life during the time on earth have a life in the "world to come". This is a great deal (IMHO), as there is no bonus at the end. Our collective merit lies in the works we do on earth. The beauty of a life that transcends this is not an issue. Only how we try to make live on earth meaningful for ourselves and the rest of humanity. No bonus. No gratuity. Just that.

Ed



That is the essence of UU belief as well.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:41:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By Dino:

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?



Sorry for the slight hijack.

I know many Jews who are atheists. Same as some Catholics, Baptists, etc. For many their religion is nothing more than a family tradition vs an actual belief.

I think its common in any religion.



________________________________

Yeah, I believe you're right. However, my dear and very sweet wife is Christian, from pretty much the heart of the Bible Belt. We've been married for two years.

She's beautiful to behold, though what struck me so was the beauty of her heart.

Family tradition? Actual belief?

As with my wife, we both ascribe that actions are louder than words...be they intoned in my Jewish liturgy or hers. I've been very lucky that she celebrates Shabbos with me, and also goes to synogogue regularly, as well as to the High Holy Days.

Our common bond in love is not too different from your post. As different as my wife and I are in faith...the faith that binds us is the faith of love and decency.



Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:45:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Jew believe that all who live a good life during the time on earth have a life in the "world to come". This is a great deal (IMHO), as there is no bonus at the end. Our collective merit lies in the works we do on earth. The beauty of a life that transcends this is not an issue. Only how we try to make live on earth meaningful for ourselves and the rest of humanity. No bonus. No gratuity. Just that.

Ed



That is the essence of UU belief as well.



_________________________________________

Thanks, Dino.

I've posted before that what we have in common is far greater than what we perceive our differences to be. I work with a fellow who is also UU; 'darned if we haven't had some great conversations and commentary which we've both learned from.

B'Shalom,

Ed

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:19:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to take you from your busy day persecution the Christian majority on this site but recently I saw a post where one of you (and now I can't find it anywhere) mentioned that your religion is more about works than creeds. Mention was made on the many different forms and how many argue that Judaism doesn't have a creed like many religions.

That being the case is it possible to be an atheist and be a religious Jew?
Our first commandment is that you recognize that their is a G-d, so no. Though if you are following his laws then surely he would reveal himself to you and clear your head of doubt.

If I don't believe in God, but I attempt to live by God's law, what happens to me when I die?
See above.

p.s. post title and first sentence is a joke, this forum needs to lighten up




Cut it out or we'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Yes, we have a sense of humor.



I knew yall had a sense of humor, It was directed towards any hyperactive mods :)

I'm contrasting your answer with the one Scuba_Ed gave and am still unclear.




_________________________

'sorry Dino---lot's of time-latent messages, I believe we lost our "thread"...what point you mentioned that you have a Jewish question for?

Ed



Specifically, if, as an atheist, I live an ethical life in all other ways (with allowances for human failing) and attempt to live by the Law that is still viewed as valid, would I have a place in the world to come?

Think of it as Pascal's Wager from a Jewish perspective.

From a Christian perspective, Pascal's wager is foolish as the primary concentration is on belief. If you don't believe, you burn. Your characterization of Judaism as an ethical belief system got me curious.




________________________________

Hi Dino--from the Jewish perspective, there's been much written of the "world to come". That said, uhh, no-one (OKAY--This is from a Jewish perspective!) has ever come back to us. Golly, if we knew it would be a great party w/ food and leisure--what Jew wouldn't want that!) :-)

Back to being serious, the honest answer from the preponderance of the Jewish community is based--and I don't mean this as disrespective--upon rationality. Judaism has often been referred to as legalistic.

Quite often, though, the legalism is a form of humanism.

We’re all human, with our foibles, and our noble aspirations. Most often, all of us simply want to arise from bed in the morning, go to work and do our best, then to return home…to love and compassion.

A cycle.

Every day.

Were we to treat our fellows with the same courage and love with which we approach our families and our obligations to both—and then to have said to us that because we didn’t believe in one way or another—that our lives, and those we hold dear, are in peril because of that g-d, or ideology we don’t espouse?

Some texts will espouse that it’s one way or the highway. Were someone to tell me that, based upon what I know what a good life means…I would take the highway.

Several years ago, in Fairfax County, my rabbi attended a conference of religious leaders within the county. The question asked by my rabbi was whose religion would accept me in whatever the “world to come” is—and the only positive response came from a Buddhist leader.

You tell, me, then…where’s the love?

Who's inclusive?

That is often the most telling.


B'Shalom,

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:38:04 AM EDT
thanks Scuba_Ed, good read.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:45:42 AM EDT
Thanks, Dino---I've enjoyed you through these posts; hope we can further share in the future.

B'Shalom,

Ed
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