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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/28/2005 4:11:08 PM EDT
I'm working on a project car.

The car had an oil leak (the guy that had it told me about it when I got it). Leaks worse in the cold--doesn't leak when running, but when the oil settles back into the oil pan, it causes the leak.

After replacing the Lower oil pan gasket, oil filter housing gasket and O ring, and not having the leak improve (these looked like the most likely candidates), I cleaned the engine completely and found the leak--the upper oil pan gasket had a section torn out of it (embarassingly enough, once I found the leak, I saw where the gasket was sticking out of the joint).

So, today I set about removing the lower oil pan (easy to do).

Then moved the Power Steering Pump (bolts to part of the upper pan).

Loosened the Rack & Pinion--it comes close enough to the upper pan that you need to move it to drop the pan.

The Subframe is close, but I think the pan will clear.

Now, after doing all that, double checking everything, I cannot get the upper pan free from where it attaches to the transmission (3 bolts--torx head come out with no problem). If I recall properly, there is a dowel to align the parts, and that may be sticking.

Have no access to an engine hoist--so cannot lift the engine a bit.

The Upper pan runs the full length of the engine block, so I need to drop the whole pan to replace the gasket.

What I can do (and did) was clear out the torn section of the upper gasket--about a 6" section (it turns a corner).

I could possibly cut a section out of the new gasket to match the missing pieces (about 5 bolts would hold the transplanted section into place)--I can pull the front edge of the pan down by about 3/4", and could put the transplant piece into place with no problem. I can also access both inside and out of the pan (since the lower pan is gone).

I know that if I cannot get a complete (whole) replacement gasket into place, it will leak--

With the original torn gasket, I got a leak of about 1 pint in the cold weather (when warm, maybe a couple of oz's). I could live with a small drip if necessary.

Is there any good quality sealant that I could use if I have to cut and paste the gasket into place?

Any thoughts?

I would prefer to do a proper job, but I am limited to working on my back in the driveway (and to good weather).

Anyone??

Thanks!!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:21:13 PM EDT
You're better off biting the bullet & replacing the entire gasket. Any fix you make will be temporary at best & it will let loose at the worst opportune time.

My .o2
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:21:52 PM EDT
Permatex Right Stuff, liquid gasket goop. If that doesnt work, bite the bullet and take to a mechanic who has proper skills and tools. There's no shame, I dont do all the mechanical work on my trucks.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:24:04 PM EDT
If you only need to lift the engine a few inches, an improvised A-frame and come-along will work, or a bottle jack on a solid point under the engine.

What you describe will not seal well, as you will have difficulty degreasing the surfaces so the sealant will stick. But, it is better than having a 5 inch gap in your gasket.

There are silicone "RTV" sealers that should work for you. I like the hi-temp red stuff in areas subject to a lor of heat.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:31:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 4:32:16 PM EDT by 22bad]
"I would like to do a proper job?"

Then scrape the whole gasket surface using a mirror, clean it up with scotchbrite and put on a whole gasket

even if you don't have a lift, you might be able to get some more room by jacking up the transmisssion
with a floor jack(with a WOOD spacer if you use the pan)unbolt the motor mounts to get more play

as far as replacing just the "partial" gasket, cut it at an angle so you get some overlap
and I cannot think of any "magical" gasket sealant, I am getting partial to the high temp oxygen sensor safe silicone gasket sealant

Are you working on a Mercedes? I didn't notice any mention in the article of the type vehicle
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:40:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 4:44:12 PM EDT by AFARR]
BMW-- 1991 318is with 175k miles (pretty much a freebie considering what I traded for it--the owner didn't want to hassle with any more repairs, and I am partial to the E30 bodystyle also). Actually in pretty good shape--engine is nice and clean (except for the oil leak), A/C works, had been repainted (white over red--a few chips where the red is showing), cracked C/V and R & P boots, muffler needs replaced.

Thanks for the tip on the jacking at the trans--that might help.

I can actually access the entire area (from inside the pan and outside) where the rip is--I can run a few gun cleaing patches along it to degrease (I have the 3/4" of clearance for it).


I don't know who designed the thing, but they must have had a bit too much Lager...
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:52:51 PM EDT
If you can drop the pan just enough to clean the two surfaces all the way around, spray the surfaces with brake cleaner, carberator cleaner, or starting fluid. Use the red RTV and squirt it in place of a real gasket.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 4:55:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 4:56:29 PM EDT by 22bad]
Personally I wouldn't consider 3/4" to be very much clearance
again try using a scotchbrite(green)pad to scrub the gasket material off after getting most of it off
with a scraper or a razorblade(my favorite) using a mirror, of course, to inspect it

if you unbolt the motor mounts(not completely, just top or bottom)
you should be able to lift the motor at the tranny or even be able to
put a block of wood up on some part of the block to lift it from there
until you run out of clearance at the firewall
be careful of streching connected hoses and wires, good luck

and make sure your fingers are not at risk during this procedure
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:02:17 PM EDT
The 3/4" is only at the front of the pan--it does tilt.

Where it attaches to the Trans, the clearance is only about 1/8" at best--that is where it is hung up.

I did spray penetrating oil along the area where it attaches to the trans, hoping that will get around the dowel.

Don't know that I can get anything on the engine block itself--the oil pan runs the full bottom of the block.

AFARR

Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:07:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 5:08:38 PM EDT by 22bad]
as long as you take advantage of ALL the clearance between the engine\trans and the firewall
you have gotten as much clearance as possible without removing the engine

as far as the other lift points, we have used something like a 14" 4x4 against
an alternator bracket, motor mount or exhaust manifold, look around........
the tranny is the safest, just thought I would point out that there are alternate lift points
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:12:01 PM EDT
That will significantly help with clearance.

I still need to get it free from the trans, though.

Thanks!!

Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:24:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AFARR:
That will significantly help with clearance.

I still need to get it free from the trans, though.

Thanks!!



Hmmm.........don't know about that, you may have to unbolt the tranny and move it back, can you SEE what is holding it?
(that will of course make it harder to clear the pan by lifting from the tranny)

I love having access to a shop with all the tools, the lifts and mechanics with a lot more experience than me
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:38:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By AFARR:
That will significantly help with clearance.

I still need to get it free from the trans, though.

Thanks!!



Hmmm.........don't know about that, you may have to unbolt the tranny and move it back, can you SEE what is holding it?
(that will of course make it harder to clear the pan by lifting from the tranny)

I love having access to a shop with all the tools, the lifts and mechanics with a lot more experience than me



Include the engine size and transmission type and I will ask one of my friends tomorrow
no guarantees, but he has been doing this stuff waaaaay more years than I have
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 5:47:46 PM EDT
1.8 Liter 16 valve (M42) Engine.

Getrag trans (5 spd).

Can't see what is holding it, but the parts diagrams have a dowel that aligns things--and the hold up appears to be right about there.

Jacking the Trans may take some tension off.

Weather permitting, I'll try tomorrow.

Thnaks!!

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:45:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 11:45:29 PM EDT by 22bad]
I saw a "not very helpfull" diagram(you might get a look at a good exploded diagram at a (BMW)parts store)
they seemed be pointing out the "rubber inserts"? at all four corners of the upper pan, check on that

as far as getting access to the pan gasket surface
from what I could figure out, it looks like there are two bolts that come from the back of the pan
you should have an access cover for your flywheel(between trans and engine, on bottom)
if you can get it off(might have reverse torx bolts)you should be able to see the two rear bolts
that the diagram said are holding the pan on............no wonder you couldn't get more than 3/4 inch

it only pays 1.4 hours for that job, so it probably doesn't require removing the engine(some do)

Good Luck

Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:43:52 PM EDT
Thanks--

Weather has been a bit too bad to finish off. Should improve Friday.

I did find a parts diagram--

There may be a hidden bolt or cover--I'll look a lot closer.

Thanks!!

Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:16:01 PM EDT
Thanks!!

Found the two hidden bolts--even with loosening the moter mounts and jacking the trans up, it was a pain in the ass--still couldn't get the pan all the way lose (would have had to take the subframe off). However, I was able to peel the old gasket off almost whole, and slip the new one along the pan. Was more than a pain getting everything back together, but filled with oil overnight and didn't leak--then, ran to temp twice today and let it sit--still no visible leak. Prior to this, it would leak as the oil came back down the engine after running.

Went to do a CV boot, but found two ripped (and two cracked but not through). I need to get another one to work on it.

Thanks again for the help.

AFARR
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 3:23:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 9:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AFARR:

it would leak as the oil came back down the engine after running.

Went to do a CV boot, but found two ripped (and two cracked but not through).





Bush's fault!
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