Why is there a thread every other day where someone from a religion other than Catholic decides to bash on Roman Catholics?  What is your need to bash us?

I have not been here a real long time, but I can't remember seeing a thread started by a Catholic who bashes your religion.  Hey it is obvious that you don't like the Church.  After all somewhere along the line your ancestors decided to leave the Church.  So good for you.  You are out.  I got news for you, nobody is trying to get you back in.  Don't like what we do?  We don't care.

Oh and just in case you can't tell,





THIS IS A RELIGIOUS TRAP!!!

Never understood it myself.  Dont we all worship the same God?  You do it your way and I'll do it mine, no problems.

I can't remember personally "bashing" the Roman church, but Sarge sure is quick to hammer us Protestants.

Quoted: Never understood it myself.  Dont we all worship the same God?  You do it your way and I'll do it mine, no problems.

Agreed!

But somehow these other churches don't think Catholics are even Christians...when if it wasn't for us their churches would never have EXISTED!


Mainly thanks to the originization structure we have...which they seem to hate.

Whatever.......


SGatr15

Quoted: I can't remember "bashing" the Roman church, but Sarge sure is quick to hammer us Protestants.

Link???


SGtar15

All of us Christians need to stick together.  We have a common enemy we need to defeat.

I quote Scripture and some people consider it an attack on Catholics.

FWIW, I do believe it is possible to be a Catholic and be saved.

I am a Baptist. I don't bash Catholics. I might crack an occasional joke, but nothing serious is meant by it. Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, who cares, we are all Christians.

At any rate, the only religion I bash is..........wait, I can't say that here.

Quoted: Why is there a thread every other day where someone from a religion other than Catholic decides to bash on Roman Catholics?  What is your need to bash us?

This is news to me.

Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/awwwackbartrap.jpg

Brisk, have I ever told you that I love you?

Quoted: Quoted: Why is there a thread every other day where someone from a religion other than Catholic decides to bash on Roman Catholics?  What is your need to bash us? This is news to me.

They mostly don't start out as a bash, but most religious threads end up bashing the Church.

And I don't think it is a members here that do this either.  Most don't, but there are some that end up in every religious thread who feel the need to rant about how Catholics are wrong.  How we worship the saints, think Mary is God, blah blah blah.

You got to understand some people believe that the Catholic Church has twisted and perverted the teachings of God.  Heresy is one of the worst (religious) crimes you can commit and if you belong to a branch of a religion or anything else for that matter and you believe something different from another branch you will get flack for it.  

That’s just the way it is.
So butch up and read about the inquisition and keep in mind what the Catholics did to others.    

ed.  you think name calling is bad?  try drawing.

Quoted: Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/awwwackbartrap.jpg Brisk, have I ever told you that I love you?

THAT is a trap.

Quoted: You got to understand some people believe that the Catholic Church has twisted and perverted the teachings of God.  Heresy is one of the worst (religious) crimes you can commit and if you belong to a branch of a religion or anything else for that matter and you believe something different from another branch you will get flack for it.   That’s just the way it is. So butch up and read about the inquisition and keep in mind what the Catholics did to others.

If only I could start up my own inquistion...

Stop your priests from molesting altar boy, you'll find most of the criticism ends.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/awwwackbartrap.jpg Brisk, have I ever told you that I love you? THAT is a trap.

And you are in it.  Lucky for you I am deeply in love with Mrs. Wedge.

Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/awwwackbartrap.jpg

For the record, I don't bash Catholics. As a former Catholic myself, I may disagree with certain tenets of their RELIGION (not FAITH), but I do so with respect, as I believe that, in those areas where we disagree, they are mistaken rather than EVIL or anything similar.

Also for the record, I don't belong to any Protestant denomination. I am a Christian. Period. Anyone who believes that Christ is the Son o God and our only hope for salvation is my brother, and I'll not attack his faith, even if I have issues with some of the ways he practices it.

Finally, and before anyone tries it, do NOT associate me or any other real Christian with the likes of the stereotypical TV evangelist or the Jim Jones crowd. Those people may claim to be Christian, but I could just as easily claim to be from Pluto. Claiming so doesn't MAKE it so.

There are a number of things that I disagree with the Catholic Church on, but I do not bash them. You do your thing, I'll do mine. If you try to push my buttons about who's church is right and who's wrong, you've made an egregious error.

I honestly try not to bash catholics. Next time you see me bashing, point it out. We'll then discuss whether it's a bash, or merely constructive criticism. And feel free to 'constructively criticize' me if you like.

But, yes, I do see what I percieve to be real problems w/ catholicism.

No, I do not believe salvation is exclusive to a particular denomination. You're either a Christian, or you're not. Denomination means nothing.

and yes, this thread is a trap.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/awwwackbartrap.jpg Brisk, have I ever told you that I love you? THAT is a trap. And you are in it.  Lucky for you I am deeply in love with Mrs. Wedge.

I am SO not touching this.  It's the sort of thing that could ruin a man's ministry.

Quoted: I honestly try not to bash catholics. Next time you see me bashing, point it out. We'll then discuss whether it's a bash, or merely constructive criticism. And feel free to 'constructively criticize' me if you like. But, yes, I do see what I percieve to be real problems w/ catholicism. No, I do not believe salvation is exclusive to a particular denomination. You're either a Christian, or you're not. Denomination means nothing. and yes, this thread is a trap.

I have no bone to pick with you.  I firmly believe that I will see arowneragain in Heaven (if I make the cut).

I disagree with Catholic teaching, Catholic belief in the infallibility of "apostolic tradition", the belief that scripture is not the divine authority in the church, and even the use of the word Catholic. (Which means"universal")

But despite these disagreements, I don't find most catholics to be any more disagreeable than most evangelicals. In fact, I often find that Catholics are more humble and more virtuous....

Any man who takes up his cross and follows Christ is a disciple of Christ. I believe that there are many people in the Catholic church walking in the light they have been shown and who have a genuine relationship with Christ. These people are on their way to heaven, and are the cherrished of God, and I won't be the one assaulting them.  

Quoted: Quoted: img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/brisk322/awwwackbartrap.jpg For the record, I don't bash Catholics. As a former Catholic myself, I may disagree with certain tenets of their RELIGION (not FAITH), but I do so with respect, as I believe that, in those areas where we disagree, they are mistaken rather than EVIL or anything similar. Also for the record, I don't belong to any Protestant denomination. I am a Christian. Period. Anyone who believes that Christ is the Son o God and our only hope for salvation is my brother, and I'll not attack his faith, even if I have issues with some of the ways he practices it. Finally, and before anyone tries it, do NOT associate me or any other real Christian with the likes of the stereotypical TV evangelist or the Jim Jones crowd. Those people may claim to be Christian, but I could just as easily claim to be from Pluto. Claiming so doesn't MAKE it so.

so let me see if I get this straight.   Despite someone's claim to be a Christian, if they do something that the majority of Christians disagree with, they aren't really Christians.

Do I have that correct?

Quoted: I disagree with Catholic teaching, Catholic belief in the infallibility of "apostolic tradition", the belief that scripture is not the divine authority in the church, and even the use of the word Catholic. (Which means"universal")

Now where in Hell did you get that piece of disinformation??

Sgatr15

Quoted: Quoted: I disagree with Catholic teaching, Catholic belief in the infallibility of "apostolic tradition", the belief that scripture is not the divine authority in the church, and even the use of the word Catholic. (Which means"universal")   Now where in Hell did you get that piece of disinformation?? Sgatr15

News to me as well.  I even bet my Priest will be surpirsed.

In my view scripture is SUPERIOR to all other writings, opinions, etc. The idea of Apostolic Tradition, as held by many Catholics (not all) is that edicts from the eccumenical councils and the Pope are just as good as scripture.

I do not believe that is true.

Thus the idea of removing the scripture from the church (as the Catholic church did quite some time ago) and pusing relics and pilgrimages, (as the church did) and of granting indulgences to sin, (as the church did) were not justified because they contradicted scripture. But according to "apostolic tradition" these practices were accepted.

There was a faith handed down on the authority of Christ to the Apostles, but men turned that authority to evil and yet claimed that the apostolic tradition of power as granted to Peter gave them authority to do it.

I do not believe that the church leaders like the Pope are infallible, nor that their proclimations are infallible, as history has shown otherwise. In every denomination I can point to men who lived Saintly lives and sought God's will and lead according to God's law. I can also point to robed scoundrels who exploited position and faith for their own ends in every denomination.

God is infallible. His Word is infallible. Man, even the well intentioned men, are not. Thus when any man contradicts scripture, he is wrong, no matter what his position or title.

This is what I meant.

Quoted: so let me see if I get this straight.   Despite someone's claim to be a Christian, if they do something that the majority of Christians disagree with, they aren't really Christians. Do I have that correct?

No, you don't.

If a person claims to be a Christian, then leads a bunch of people into a cult where HE is said to be Christ (i.e. - Koresh), then he is not a Christian, because he has placed himself on the level with God.

If a person claims to be a Christian then makes a living out of bilking believers of their money (stereotypical TV evangelit), then they are not Christian because they STEAL for a living, and KNOW it.

In short, if you claim to be Christian, and then live your life in a manner that is directly against the teachings of Christ, then you are NOT a Christian!

That said, we ALL sin. Sometimes purposefully, sometimes by accident. It is what in your heart that the Lord will measure when it comes time to judge you, not your actions. The thing is, you cannot be a surrogate Christ or a career theif and have Christ in your heart.

Capiche?

Quoted: so let me see if I get this straight.   Despite someone's claim to be a Christian, if they do something that the majority of Christians disagree with, they aren't really Christians. Do I have that correct?

No. The accurate judge of who is and who is not a Christian is within the Scriptures. If a person lives their life crucified to their own fleshly desires and base motives, and instead lives as Christ living within them by the power of the Holy Spirit, that person is a Christian.

A person who does not meet the standard of Christ, or better still who is not even persuing the standard of Christ is NOT a Christian, no matter what they claim or how many Bible verses they know.

The proof of Christianity is in action. "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. Faith without works is DEAD!" Belief, or mental acknowledgement, of Christ's existence IS NOT sufficient to save, as James says "Even demons believe, and they tremble!"

The genuine proof of repentence and conversion is that a person abandons the works of death, and then lives their life as a living sacrifice unto God, doing "works worthy of repentence."

Quoted: Thus the idea of removing the scripture from the church (as the Catholic church did quite some time ago)

Have you even BEEN to a Catholic Church?

I am guessing no, since we read scripture 3 times at each Mass and are incourage to read it ourselves.

and pusing relics and pilgrimages, (as the church did) and of granting indulgences to sin, (as the church did) were not justified because they contradicted scripture. But according to "apostolic tradition" these practices were accepted.

Key word..."WERE".

Want to know who fixed that little problem?  A Catholic PRIEST named Martin Luther.

There was a faith handed down on the authority of Christ to the Apostles, but men turned that authority to evil and yet claimed that the apostolic tradition of power as granted to Peter gave them authority to do it.

Jesus said:  Upon this rock I will build my Church.  Peter was the first Pope.  So are you saying I ignore all the teaching of Peter since he is just a man?  


If it wasn't for Peter NONE of us would be having this cinversation.

SGatr15

Um....I repeat, this thread is a trap...

Quoted: The proof of Christianity is in action. "Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. Faith without works is DEAD!" Belief, or mental acknowledgement, of Christ's existence IS NOT sufficient to save, as James says "Even demons believe, and they tremble!"

Aw, shit! You had to go and open up THAT can of worms, did ya?

Quoted: Stop your priests from molesting altar boy, you'll find most of the criticism ends.

That would be nice Raven, but even if they did there would still be criticism.  Just as in real life there is a suttle dislike of Catholics.  Part of it I would venture in the past had to do with the incoming immigrants that society looked down on such as the Irish.  Part of it might be because of the heirarchy and history of the Church. And, I am sure some of it is also differences in beliefs.

I have always believed it is kind of insulting to belittle another mans faith.  You ain't gonna change his mind and all you will end up doing is pissing him off.

I was raised Catholic and my kids are being raised Catholic.  It is my faith.

The one thing I always respected about the Jews are that they never seemed to have the need to force their religion on you unlike our Christian religions.

I think I'm ready for this now.





Aw, why not?

See this is proving my point.

This thread has turned into Catholics having to defend our selves from people who don't listen and have no idea what they are talking about.

Tagged to gawk at the train wreck later.

Quoted: Um....I repeat, this thread is a trap...

I put up the warning at the beginning of the thread.

I also point out that nobody has given a reason for their need to bash the Church.  They have only provided more bashing.

Proverbs 6:16-19

16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Just for once, could we not all fight over who can do the best job of being #7 of the above list?

I'm not sure why folks start threads to bash the RCC, but then as far as I'm concerned, Arfcom is a less-than-ideal place to debate the subtleties of doctrine.

I am definitely not the one to throw stones at Catholic Church.  Someone remind me of this thread if I ever do.

I do take issue with some RCC doctrines, but am essentially an Augustinian Catholic myself (i.e.: TULIP / Systematic Theology / Reformed [read: Luther/Presby/Calvin]).

There is a place for doctrinal debates, but why it would be here at Arfcom is beyond me.

The fact of the matter is that we do worship the same Jesus, and while we may disagree on some things, it is not man who will be judging your heart or mine, but Him.

That being said:

Quoted: ... if it wasn't for us [the RCC] their churches would never have EXISTED!

Sarge if you're claiming that the Roman Catholic Church came before all others, I disagree. The Eastern Orthodox were around before the historical office of "Pope". They are the closest thing to an "apostolic" denomination that anybody has seen since the 1st century.

In the end you're right, if it wasn't for the Pope's selling of indulgences, Martin Luther (who never renounced his Catholicism) would never have nailed his thesis to the door at Wittenberg, and their would have been no Protestant Reformation.

Fortunately for all of us, it did happen.  The USA wouldn't exist if it didn't.

Look, NO denomination has the right to claim some "divine lineage" of doctrine. Church History can't exactly be debated the same way as doctrine, and to claim some "ultimate truth" apart from the core doctrines of the Bible would be ridiculous, wither you be Baptist, Adventist, Reformed, Catholic, or whatever.

If someone wants to debate .223 vs. .308, Arfcom is the place.  Otherwise they should visit CARM to hash out their differences.

-FMD

I've never "bashed" the Catholic Church, here or in the real world.  Many of my closest friends (not to mention the Judge for whom my wife works) are Catholic and - even though I disagree with much of their doctrine - I certainly respect their (and all others') right to worship as they see fit.  

Heck, I'm a Christian but the specefics of my doctrine do not agree with probably 99% of the other Christian doctrines out there - that's why I try only to post facts/opinions/comments in the religious threads regarding doctrinal issues upon which most Christians agree.  If I posted my specific doctrinal beliefs on every religious issue that came up here (1) most of y'all would think I was a whack-job and (2) I'd get jumped upon worse than the resident atheists...


...and certainly worse than you Catholics!

Quoted: Have you even BEEN to a Catholic Church? I am guessing no, since we read scripture 3 times at each Mass and are incourage to read it ourselves.

Yes. And I am not necessarily talking about modern practices in the church. But at a time, scripture was not allowed in the hands of the paritioners. This was error, and men exploited it for their own purposes, going so far as to persecute those who had copies or translations of the Word with death!

The church has reformed a great deal since then, but the idea of infallibility falls flat when we consider episodes like this one.

Key word..."WERE". Want to know who fixed that little problem?  A Catholic PRIEST named Martin Luther.

Indeed, and he was labeled a heretic by the governing authorities in the church for doing so. Luther, by the way, was not alone. Tyndale, Firth, the Lolards and many others preceeded him or were his contemporaries. Luther was a galvanizing figure, but there were others.

The point is that if the Pope and the councils can do no wrong, the Lutheran reformation would have destroyed the church rather than reform it. That is my point. Luther came along during a dark time in the church when the Word had been taken from the people, and where certain men exploited this for their own ends. Luther believed in the Word as it was originally delivered by the Apostles and translated the New Testament in German so that all men could read the truth for themselves.

This forced the evil men out of the church eventually, though there was a bloody struggle for many centuries.

But if no one in the leadership of the church could err, then all of that would be a moot point.

Jesus said:  Upon this rock I will build my Church.  Peter was the first Pope.  So are you saying I ignore all the teaching of Peter since he is just a man?   If it wasn't for Peter NONE of us would be having this cinversation.

Jesus Christ did indeed give Peter authority, but I don't believe Jesus called him the first pope. Jesus gave authority to all of His disciples, charging them with leading the church by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Peter was a GREAT man of God, but he was not alone in that. Even Peter was taken to task by Paul on the issue of associating with gentiles.

Peter, though called and annointed and walking in such power and relationship with the Father that people were healed by just touching his shadow, was not a perfect man. No man save Christ is perfect, and no man save Christ is infallible. Paul's gentle rebuke of Peter shows us that Peter was a fellow sojurner in the faith just as all real Christians are, and that despite the power in his life he was not perfect.

But the Gospel he delivered to us IS perfect, as the Gospel does not rest on the charachter of Peter but on the charachter of Almighty God. Though the man is not perfect, the message is, and we are to believe more in God than in man. For a long time the church did not have this balance right.

BTW -- Peter's ministry in the Bible was mostly to the Jews. Paul was the great evangelist to the gentiles.

But if both could be here right now, they would tell us that niether were responsible for what was delivered to us, but that all glory belonged to God, for it was Him working in them that made it all possible. They would tell us that they were, at best, unprofitable servants. By the end of their lives both men were humble and so full of grace that it would put even the greatest ministers of today to shame....

Quoted: See this is proving my point. This thread has turned into Catholics having to defend our selves from people who don't listen and have no idea what they are talking about.

Hey, I know what I'm talking about!  

Made a new Ackar pic, got my marshmallows and hot dogs (well, cold dogs 'til I'm finished) and my stick, and the fire's getting started very nicely.

I feel a haiku coming on.

Reformation bad.
It was not.  It was needed.
Let's have a flame war.


May I remind the antagonists and protagonists (pick which one you each are, I don't care) in this thread of the presence of agnostics and atheists who (otherwise) JUST MIGHT be interested in Christianity.  

Colossians 4:5-6
Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.  Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Brisk(ThisBickeringIsPointless)322

Quoted: I also point out that nobody has given a reason for their need to bash the Church.  They have only provided more bashing.

I have not bashed "the church".

I have "bashed" men who used their position in the church for their own ends, but not the church itself. In every church there are good people trying to live as Christ. In every church there are scoundrels who seek to exploit the Gospel for the fulfillment of their own fleshly desires.  I can point to examples of both in the Catholic church, and in my own denomination. (More, actually, in my own denomination......)

Anyone, no matter the denomination, who believes that Christ was crucified for sin and raised on the third day, and who takes up their cross and lives on this earth dead to themselves and alive to Christ, is MY BROTHER. If I hate him, then I nullify my own salvation.

I can disagree with fine points of doctrine and with particular practices. But I cannot and will not have any malice for them, even if I disagree.

Do not mistake disagreement over some points of doctrine with malice toward you. I bear you none.

Quoted: Stop your priests from molesting altar boy, you'll find most of the criticism ends.

Jeez, Raven! Get a grip!

As if the actions of a few MEN in any way reflects upon the FAITH of the followers of the church!

Sorry, but that statement is one of the DUMBEST I've ever seen in the religious threads....

[Southern Baptist]  Taggage.  [/Southern Baptist]

Don't have time right now.  

And....




IBTP!

Quoted: Quoted: Stop your priests from molesting altar boy, you'll find most of the criticism ends. Jeez, Raven! Get a grip! As if the actions of a few MEN in any way reflects upon the FAITH of the followers of the church! Sorry, but that statement is one of the DUMBEST I've ever seen in the religious threads....

Agreed.

Even though I'm a Christioan I would like to point out that Christ himself was....A JEW!






Yep, the holiest of holy, the earthly embodyment of GOD was in fact a Hebrew/Jewish. His tenure on this earth spawned the second of the three "great" religions of the world today.  IMHO doctrine doesn't matter as long as you have a relationship with GOD.


Sgt,

I've said it berfore and I'll say it again. You are an ass and your partial knowledge of history is not helping you make your case. Before you bash another demonination or defend your church at least try to understand their POV. No organization on this earth will ever be perfect, there are people involved after all.

My biggest gripe with the Catholic church is this, catholics believe that a prest can give you forgiveness for your sins. I disagree, only GOD can forgive you as it's his will you've disobeyed, it's his will that matters, not the priests. To each their own though, I have bigger things to worry about than whom worships in what church.

Quoted: Post from sgtar15 - But somehow these other churches don't think Catholics are even Christians...when if it wasn't for us their churches would never have EXISTED! Now, that is just the reason that these sorts of threads get started and continue unabated! Sarge just doesn't seem to understand that there are denominations of Christianity that consider themselves as the true successors to the Church at Jerusalem, and that they predate any Church of Rome by decades if not centuries! I'm not a member of such denominations, but if I were, I think I might take a bowshot across such unhistorical statements myself! Mainly thanks to the originization structure we have...which they seem to hate. The Protestant Movement was NOT begun as in defiance of Roman Church Hierarchy, but as an attempt to reform that Church's non-Scriptural excesses. Such as the selling of indulgences, the veneration of the supposed relics of Saints, and other such matters that offended some Christians. Indeed, Martin Luther thought he was being a good little Catholic in the beginning, pointing out where the Roman Church had veered off course. Had the Roman Church been more receptive to his and others' criticisms, there might never have been a Protestant Movement. But that would still leave a lot of Christian Churches outside the Holy See of Rome. Eric The(HistoricalChristianityIsMyBailiwick)Hun

As your hisztorical baliwick you then realize that the selling of indungences allowed the Catholic Church to finance it's missionaries and helped spread Catholicism throughtout hte trade routes, which in turn returned $$$$$$$$$$$$$ (often in the form of gold) to the Church.


All historical facts and easily researchable.