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Posted: 10/21/2004 2:18:11 PM EST
Do military pilots, both AF and Navy, and Army/USMC aviators carry loaded sidearms while flying in the US or just when flying in combat areas?
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:20:54 PM EST
I've never seen a USAF fighter pilot carry a firearm at all when flying in the US in the ten years I've been in the AF.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:27:56 PM EST
My father carried a Browing HI-Power in Vietnam. I am pretty sure in a combat zone they carry sidearms.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:29:01 PM EST
I was told by a friend in the Navy that pilots carry M11's (Sig P228)
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:29:52 PM EST
whats makes the sigp228 an M11. whats the differnce?

thanks bbr
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:30:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By 2A373:
I've never seen a USAF fighter pilot carry a firearm at all when flying in the US in the ten years I've been in the AF.



I've been wondering because I knew a USAF pilot who carried a G34 while flying a C17 between McChord and Macedonia/Albania in support of the action in Kosovo.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:30:46 PM EST
Navy aircrew carry a Sig P228 9mm into a combat zone.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:31:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By buddysblackrifle:
whats makes the sigp228 an M11. whats the differnce?

thanks bbr



Same way that the 92FS is an M9, it has different serial number, markings and perhaps finish, and is in military service.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:32:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By buddysblackrifle:
whats makes the sigp228 an M11. whats the differnce?

thanks bbr



Same way that the 92FS is an M9, it has different serial number, markings and perhaps finish, and is in military service.



Don't forget the price tag!
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:34:13 PM EST
Our Navy pilots did during Desert Storm.

Not sure which kind.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:34:46 PM EST
Only time we carry them is in combat zones or designated mission. Never seen a weapon issued out for anything "routine" in the US. I suppose anything is possible though and speaking only for the USMC units I was in while I was there.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:35:25 PM EST
My experience in the Air Force is a little dated, but for routine peacetime flying and training in US airspace, AF pilots are not armed. Of course I have been out for 18 years so it may be different today, especially post-9/11. In 8 years of blue suit time, I only saw pilots carrying a firearm during full-scale mobility exercises. Even then I do not think they actually flew with them.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:35:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By buddysblackrifle:
whats makes the sigp228 an M11. whats the differnce?

thanks bbr



Same way that the 92FS is an M9, it has different serial number, markings and perhaps finish, and is in military service.



Don't forget the price tag!



I don't know what it is, but the cost difference between the Sig and Beretta is the reason they bought the Italian. Actually I think some airbases were thrown in, but the military swears they weren't.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:37:35 PM EST
Hmmmm. My buddy is learning to fly C130s at Cherry Point for the USMC. I'll have to ask him. I know he was in the market for a handgun a few months back.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:38:49 PM EST
Sig P228 is correct.

In the old day, they carry .38 revolver. Only Special Ops carried Browning HP 9mm.

Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:42:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR_Rifle:
Sig P228 is correct.

In the old day, they carry .38 revolver. Only Special Ops carried Browning HP 9mm.




The Smith .45 revolver also, if memory serves.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 4:43:15 PM EST
For most flights, they don't carry a firearm. Unless there is a chance of being shot down in enemy territory. The pilots are given whatever pistol as they are suiting up to go to the jet and stow it where ever they want (hopefully on their person), as long as it doesn't come loose in the cockpit as they fly. Some people think that the Egress shop comes out and puts it in their survival pack in the ejection seat prior to the go's for the day. Not true.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:41:52 PM EST
I can say with CERTAINTY that atleast SOME USAF pilots carry sidearms while flying domestic missions. I was a cop in the USAF for 4 years and an armorer. The pilots from the 908th Airlift who flew regular missions armed up before their flights and turned in after. Most of these flights were from Alabama to Chicago to pick up and drop off reservists. The couple of pilots I inquired about this with stated they started carrying post Sept. 11th. Perhaps a new AFI or SOP.

Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:09:48 AM EST

Not during training (everyday) missions only in a CZ for AF dont know about the others.

You carry a M9 with 2 mags FMJ in your survival vest, with a lot of other crap in a fighter

<---------
The heavies dont unless on specific missions
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:37:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 6:39:45 AM EST by H46Driver]

Originally Posted By buddysblackrifle:
whats makes the sigp228 an M11.



The fact that DoD bought it makes it an M11.

ETA: We used M11s on my last tour (East Coast). Last I heard our West Coast sister squadron was still using M9s. M11s fit in the vest better. Only carried on deployment when situation warranted i.e. Log flights into UAE when they were in THREATCON C.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:38:45 AM EST
SOAR pilots in Somolia carried MP5s.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:41:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 6:41:46 AM EST by dpmmn]

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Navy aircrew carry a Sig P228 9mm into a combat zone.




In the good ol days Naval Aircrewmen carried 1911's
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:43:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 6:45:28 AM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:45:34 AM EST
Can't tell you - OPSEC.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:53:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR_Rifle:
Sig P228 is correct.

In the old day, they carry .38 revolver. Only Special Ops carried Browning HP 9mm.




Yup, the revolvers were the (in)famous S&W and Colt "Aircrew .38", often misnomered as the S&W Model 13 (Vintage S&W's are in the $850 category, and you aint gonna see a Colt in your price range).

They were mostly aluminum, 13 oz except for the barrel. They were issued with standard velocity .38 ammo and were designed as a last ditch/feel good/suicide gun. Something light and wouldn't bash the jet jockeys about as the dipped, swooped and looped.

So they went out and shot up their issue .38 ammo, thought that was a lot of fun, bought some more ammo, hey "plus p" sounds pretty good, the voila... a two fingered pilot.

They were mostly all recalled. Some got steel cylinders, most that you see are outright fakes, anyway.

See them at https://store.bluebookinc.com/home/default.aspx but for an "end user" version, read all about it at http://www.jouster.com/Bulletin/AUG/lieutenant.html

That is all :)

Doc @ M&A parts
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:54:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
Can't tell you - OPSEC.





Say again, over?
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:56:57 AM EST
OPSEC = Operational Security
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:01:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By AirforceSP:
OPSEC = Operational Security



No shit, sherlock. But, say again over? Why the hell is this OPSEC?
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:11:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By AirforceSP:
OPSEC = Operational Security



No shit, sherlock. But, say again over? Why the hell is this OPSEC?



I flew cargo airplanes in the AF. We didn't let anyone know which crewmembers were armed and when for security reasons. It makes hijacking plans a lot tougher to formulate when you don't know who is armed.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:12:57 AM EST
I qualed with the M9 and was carrying it when in Kuwait and Somailia, other than that it was in the armoury.

CH46E crew
USMC
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:14:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

I flew cargo airplanes in the AF. We didn't let anyone know which crewmembers were armed and when for security reasons. It makes hijacking plans a lot tougher to formulate when you don't know who is armed.



If you don't mind me asking, what kind of plane and when did you fly. I just finished up a course to make me a certified load planner (me, an Infantryman) and one of our instructors was a C17 loadmaster. He was cool as hell. He used to make fun of "boomers," I guess the crewchiefs on KC-135s and KC-10s?
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:23:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

I flew cargo airplanes in the AF. We didn't let anyone know which crewmembers were armed and when for security reasons. It makes hijacking plans a lot tougher to formulate when you don't know who is armed.



If you don't mind me asking, what kind of plane and when did you fly. I just finished up a course to make me a certified load planner (me, an Infantryman) and one of our instructors was a C17 loadmaster. He was cool as hell. He used to make fun of "boomers," I guess the crewchiefs on KC-135s and KC-10s?



I flew C-141s. By "boomers," he meant the guy flying the refueling probe (the "boom") in the back of the KC-135/KC-10. It actually looked like kind of a fun job to me - you've got a joystick that controls little wings on the boom and you "fly" it down to the receiving aircraft.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:29:29 AM EST
I was an Army aviator for 10 years and rarely carried a sidearm.

On tactical exercises we usually had one. Even used M-16's with MILES gear on it a few times.

We used a variety of .38's prior to the M-9. S&W's. Rugers (horrible trigger pull) and maybe some Colts. It just depended on what the local unit had on hand.

As far a holsters went, most of my units were not very picky. A lot of the guys would use the type that attached to the survival vest. I used a Bianchi shoulder harness that attatched to the new (then) issue Bianchi holster.

When I was the commander of an HHT in the Cav, I carried an M-16 and /or an M-9 in training/tactical situations. I did not fly much in that job.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:31:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

I flew cargo airplanes in the AF. We didn't let anyone know which crewmembers were armed and when for security reasons. It makes hijacking plans a lot tougher to formulate when you don't know who is armed.



If you don't mind me asking, what kind of plane and when did you fly. I just finished up a course to make me a certified load planner (me, an Infantryman) and one of our instructors was a C17 loadmaster. He was cool as hell. He used to make fun of "boomers," I guess the crewchiefs on KC-135s and KC-10s?



I flew C-141s. By "boomers," he meant the guy flying the refueling probe (the "boom") in the back of the KC-135/KC-10. It actually looked like kind of a fun job to me - you've got a joystick that controls little wings on the boom and you "fly" it down to the receiving aircraft.



He used to say they were never good at load planning, and he used to laugh at them, sweating their asses off trying to plug the hose into the other aircraft. An inner-service rivalry it was, loadmasters vs. boomers.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:44:52 AM EST
mostly over CONUS no one bothers checking out a weapon. its a hassle. the empty holster is there.

my father went to DS1 as a Cobra pilot and him and a half dozen other guys bought Glock 19s out of pocket because they didnt want to go over there with S&W 38spc revolvers.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:55:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 7:58:31 AM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:05:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Doktor:

Originally Posted By AR_Rifle:
Sig P228 is correct.

In the old day, they carry .38 revolver. Only Special Ops carried Browning HP 9mm.




Yup, the revolvers were the (in)famous S&W and Colt "Aircrew .38", often misnomered as the S&W Model 13 (Vintage S&W's are in the $850 category, and you aint gonna see a Colt in your price range).

They were mostly aluminum, 13 oz except for the barrel. They were issued with standard velocity .38 ammo and were designed as a last ditch/feel good/suicide gun. Something light and wouldn't bash the jet jockeys about as the dipped, swooped and looped.

So they went out and shot up their issue .38 ammo, thought that was a lot of fun, bought some more ammo, hey "plus p" sounds pretty good, the voila... a two fingered pilot.

They were mostly all recalled. Some got steel cylinders, most that you see are outright fakes, anyway.

See them at https://store.bluebookinc.com/home/default.aspx but for an "end user" version, read all about it at http://www.jouster.com/Bulletin/AUG/lieutenant.html

That is all :)

Doc @ M&A parts


I remember read in the NRA's American Rifleman, that the Clinton Admin destroyed many of those aluminum cylindered guns.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:08:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By AirforceSP:
I can say with CERTAINTY that atleast SOME USAF pilots carry sidearms while flying domestic missions. I was a cop in the USAF for 4 years and an armorer. The pilots from the 908th Airlift who flew regular missions armed up before their flights and turned in after. Most of these flights were from Alabama to Chicago to pick up and drop off reservists. The couple of pilots I inquired about this with stated they started carrying post Sept. 11th. Perhaps a new AFI or SOP.

Hope this helps.



Ahhh. Enemy territory: Chicago. I would carry a gun too.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:08:36 AM EST
My son was askingme what to carry, he wasn't sure whether to carry the H&K MP5 or M16, smart kid!
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:14:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 8:14:32 AM EST by CAR-10]

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
Can't tell you - OPSEC.



+1
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:21:16 AM EST
I remember that Scott O' Grady, the F-16 pilot who was shot down over Bosnia, had a Beretta. He was not impressed with how quickly it started rusting.
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