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Posted: 12/28/2003 9:34:22 AM EDT
I seemed to me that Osama Bin Laden's biggest beef with the U.S. was that U.S. troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia, and he wanted them gone. I know that later he claimed to give a shit about things like Israel and other stuff, but that never seemed to be anything he cared about earlier.  His single issue has always seemed to be that he wanted U.S. troops out of Saudi Arabia.


So didn't he WIN, and get what he wanted, when the U.S. decided (in April I think) to pull out pretty much all U.S. combat troops and planes out of Saudi Arabia, essentially abandoning the really expensive aribase that was built there?


I understand that part of the reason we're moving these troops and planes is that they are no longer needed there (to defend against Iraq) and are needed elsewhere - but doesn't it LOOK like he won, and got what he wanted?  

Or does it really matter what some terrified guy hiding in a cave really thinks?
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 9:53:55 AM EDT
If the US had pulled out of SA, abandoned SA and Israel and any involvement in the middle east or Muslim world, then I think OBL would have won.

In a real roundabout way of thinking, Saddam caused 9/11 because his invasion prompted US stationing of troops in SA, which pissed off OBL, who swore to kick us out.

But while the US has exited SA which was OBL's ostenible goal, we're now in Iraq in greater numbers, exercising greater influence in the Muslim world and trying to establish Western systems of politics and economics that fanatics like OBL find idolatrous, probably for the foreseeable future.  Not to mention, we helped out millions of Sh'ia muslims whom fanatic Saudi Sunnis like OBL hate as much as Americans and Jews. [url]http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040101faessay83105/michael-scott-doran/the-saudi-paradox.html[/url]

You can't say OBL is winning.  Especially since most likely, he's dead as a doornail.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 9:56:38 AM EDT
If I recall, he wanted to destroy our way of life. Patriot Act 1&2.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 9:58:46 AM EDT
If having your forces decimated, your funding cut off, and having to hide in a hole somehwere to keep from having your head blown off is considered winning, he is a big fucking winner.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 9:59:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er:
If I recall, he wanted to destroy our way of life. Patriot Act 1&2.
View Quote


He's threatened by our way of life and its influence on his people and their lives, and its effect on who directs Saudi society.  The article I linked to above explains the complicated dynamics of Saudi politics and terrorism.  It's not as simple as Bush being business partners with the Sauds and Bin Ladens.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:00:54 AM EDT
Nobody has won.  It ain't over yet.  
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:03:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter:
Nobody has won.  It ain't over yet.  
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That was what I said, in a roundabout way.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:05:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By ar10er:
If I recall, he wanted to destroy our way of life. Patriot Act 1&2.
View Quote


He's threatened by our way of life and its influence on his people and their lives, and its effect on who directs Saudi society.  The article I linked to above explains the complicated dynamics of Saudi politics and terrorism.  It's not as simple as Bush being business partners with the Sauds and Bin Ladens.
View Quote



I have read a bit about that, and I am reading the artical you linked to now.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:09:32 AM EDT
Since being on the ARFCOM boards one thing I’ve noticed about my fellow Alaskan’s style of writing is that he’ll dazzle you with a very articulate paragraph and then fallow it up with a “no nonsense” statement like this...........

Originally Posted By raven:
..................You can't say OBL is winning.  Especially since most likely, he's dead as a doornail.
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Which is exactly what I was thinking...
DG84
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:38:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By triburst1:
If having your forces decimated, your funding cut off, and having to hide in a hole somehwere to keep from having your head blown off is considered winning, he is a big fucking winner.
View Quote


That's what I was thinking also.
He scored a direct hit on the US, the world economy, but he won only the battle, not the war. Terrorists will NEVER  really win. They are a pitifully small minority of the world. I would compare them more to irritating mosquitoes that are nothing more than pests. Tough to eradicate, though.
They know only hate. US in SA, Israel in Palestine, etc. They will only find new reasons to hate in order to justify the murder of others. We'll never be rid of hatred and evil but these losers will never defeat the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:47:04 AM EDT
... I hardly think cowering in perpetual fear, paranoia about anything that moves in the night and having to constantly move between shithole caves are signs of a winner.

... Actually, over time, I'm beginning to believe he's farting dust. No credible messages. We may have quite possibly dispatched him with a MOAB.

... On the other hand, if alive, he's seen what happened to his buddy Saddam, and is most likey nursing an ulcer worrying about his end of days.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 10:51:56 AM EDT
I think he bit off quite a bit more than he could chew. Imagine trying to drive western influences out of Saudi and instead getting a Democratic pro-western country (and US "puppet state") for your new neighbor instead. Iraq, as someone else here had mentioned, is now like having a huge US aircraft carrier/ troop ship anchored in your swimming pool. Afghanistan is a quasi-shooting gallery.

Master Obi-Wan probably anticipated that we might have as much success as the Russians in the 'Stan. I don't think he understood than we hit alot harder and more accurate than the Russki's.

Did he win? I am not so sure he is basking in delight right now.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 11:03:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead:
That's what I was thinking also.
He scored a direct hit on the US, the world economy, but he won only the battle, not the war. Terrorists will NEVER  really win. They are a pitifully small minority of the world. I would compare them more to irritating mosquitoes that are nothing more than pests. Tough to eradicate, though.
They know only hate. US in SA, Israel in Palestine, etc. They will only find new reasons to hate in order to justify the murder of others. We'll never be rid of hatred and evil but these losers will never defeat the rest of the world.
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WOOT!


[USA]

Link Posted: 12/28/2003 3:44:54 PM EDT
By my fight score...we are well ahead and its still in the early rounds
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:11:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Terrorists will NEVER  really win. They are a pitifully small minority of the world. I would compare them more to irritating mosquitoes that are nothing more than pests. Tough to eradicate, though.
View Quote


I don't think that OBL won or is winning, but it isn't over yet.  Terrorists have won in the past though so never is probably not the right word to use.  What OBL did that was a mistake is that he put the US on what we perceived as death ground with the 9-11 attacks.  The key for terrorists, since they are militarily weaker, is to break your enemy's will to fight so that you don't have to defeat him on the field of battle.  Thus far all OBL has done is to strengthen our will and that is a major problem for him [:)]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:27:46 PM EDT
I completely agree that we (the U.S. and the rest of the civilized world) is kicking ass and taking names against organized terrorism, and will win.

All I'm wondering is if Osama's GOAL was to get the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia, it coudl actually be argued that he suceeded (and that really burns my ass).

I'm also not too sure how heartbroken he is about Saddam's fall.  After all, fundamentalist Islamists hated Saddam, for setting up a secular state.  If Iraq's new "democracy" results in a new muslim state in Iraq, that may not be so bad in his book.

Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:37:14 PM EDT
Did you read the article I linked to, DK? Not all Muslims are the same, and the hostility the intolerant Sunni Wahabi nutcases have towards Shi'ites is just as deadly and hate-filled as it is towards Jews and the US.

American forces are out of Saudi Arabia, but the US have liberated and empowered the Shi'ites in southern Iraq and given them freedom to worship in their holiest city.  Remember the car bombing at a shi'ite mosque in Iraq that killed the Sh'ite religious leader?  That has al-Qaeda written all over it.

Basically, the al-Qaeda wahabi nutcases are going to be at war until Judgement Day.  There will always be a struggle for them, and there isn't a lot US foreign policy can do to solve the root problem: their bloodthirsty fanacism and intolerance.

The whole mess in Saudi Arabia shows the tremendous wisdom of the Founding Fathers guaranteeing religious freedom and rejection of state religion in the United States. I'm so glad I live here.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:43:07 PM EDT
The attack on the twin towers by terrorists is akin to a 90 pound weakling taking a 2x4 to a 280 pound, in-shape guy at the bar.  He gets the first shot in, but then it is all over but the crying.  OBL did not win.  OBL will not win.  OBL has our full attention and the gloves are off for the first time in a long time.  That is a bad thing.  For him and anyone like him.  

OBL is dead, btw.

Iraq is an experiment in instilling democratic ideals in an area ruled by centuries of tribal warfare where blood relationships are a dominent form of rule.  It could become a radical Islamic fundamenatlist regime if we are not careful.  

OTH, it could become an example for the rest of the arab world to follow if democracy takes root.  It certainly looks like an uphill fight at the moment.

I suspect that if this experiment fails, It may require sealing of this area in order to deny them access to the rest of the world.

Jim
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:48:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Did you read the article I linked to, DK? Not all Muslims are the same, and the hostility the intolerant Sunni Wahabi nutcases have towards Shi'ites is just as deadly and hate-filled as it is towards Jews and the US.
View Quote


I totally agree with you.  I haven't read the whole article yet, because I'm busy watching the Kim Possible movie on tv.  I think you're right - the fundamentalists will have won nothing, but I was just wondering about the specific goal OBL originally espoused.

Ultimately, I worry that the Iraq war, right and well-intentioned as it was, may contribute to destabilizing the entire region far more.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 4:53:15 PM EDT
In no way has ObL won this engagement.

Yes, the U.S. has withdrawn troops from Saudi Arabia, but that was done to keep the House of Saud from falling to internal instability, not to appease ObL.

Be advised that a primary objective of all things Iraq have to do with obtaining a stable forward military presence in the area to deal with the inevitable fall of Saudi Arabia.  There is no way the U.S. can let them become another Iran.

Even if the rest of Europe is blind and dumb, the U.S. will, once again, save their collective butts by keeping the flow of oil going when SHTF in the Middle East.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 5:35:47 PM EDT
First, I do not think he won. Now the question that is important is, since we are pulling our people out of Saudia Arabia, which is what he wanted, will he discontinue terrorist attacks on US interest around the world? My answer is no, what do the rest of you think?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:15:12 PM EDT
Yes, he won. If you disagree, just try to go see your wife off at the airport.....TSA, KGB, FBI, all the same now.
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