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Posted: 1/2/2006 2:20:13 PM EDT
I have heard a rumor about some units being allowed to bring personal sidearms when deploying to Iraq/Afghanistan (if checked in to the 1SG. I have heard this in both the guard and the reserve from fellow soldiers/NCOS. Is this a rumor or is there any truth to it. I was told the only requirment is Ball ammunition must be used and one must qaulify on said handgun.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:17:49 PM EDT
Sons unit wouldn't let them do it. He tried.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:55:55 PM EDT
Check out the CIFLIC policy on POWs and modifications to Military weapons.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:28:20 PM EDT
General Order #1 no personally owned weapons.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:02:30 AM EDT
Not allowed. If you bring them they may get either confiscated or destroyed.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:34:38 PM EDT
Thats what I thought as well but there are units that are taking them in the guard and reserve here. I think its because of the absence of issue sidearms. So I take it the units allowing this are wrong. And by the way I have seen some pictures of officers carrying 1911s on their sholder holsters on my AKO account as well. Any reasons as to why this is?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 2:07:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:01:51 PM EDT by MrsWildweasel]
Sons unit bought all new weapons. 9mm, M4's, saws, shotguns, etc. They basically had an open checkbook, and his CO spent the money getting them well equiped. They also had been in contact with the unit they were replacing and asked what they wished they had brought with them. They left loaded for bear.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:38:56 PM EDT
Thats great wish that every unit in the Army decided to go that route but I would make alot of sense. It seems like there is more and more equipment being purchased by soldiers with their own money which seem wrong to me.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:01:19 PM EDT
We had to get a few things for our son that wasn't issued. Sling for the saw, and a few other things. Can't think what they were off the top of my head. Don't know if his unit being NG made a difference or not. His unit also has alot of combat vets, and his CO is one.
If there is anything we can do to help let us know. I know our son had alot issued to him when he was at Dix. He said he had like 6 dufflebags worth of stuff.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:13:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigjross_2002:
Thats great wish that every unit in the Army decided to go that route but I would make alot of sense. It seems like there is more and more equipment being purchased by soldiers with their own money which seem wrong to me.



The number is exagerrated and no matter what people are going to buy stuff that they think if better than issue, or that thye like better.
Some guys I know didn't like the issue three point sling, so they bought the Mamba. Some people don't like the issue rigger belt, so they buy the instructor style belt. Tan flight gloves instead of the gray and green. Hatch CQB instead of the issue flight gloves. Danners instead of the Bellevues. Hell some people were buying 11 inch uppers. Don't know if they thought they needed them, or if thye just wanted to look cool. I didn't like the Blackhawk thigh holster, so I bought a Bianchi (the one like the issue, but iwth the trigger guard cover) and drop leg attachement. GI's, especially young, and most especially single ones will always spend their own money. Personal preference, extra comfort, extra usability, or the belief of those.
One guy made some MOLLE holsters and leg panels for a couple people, as well as his own chest rig, that could accept either MOLLE/PALS or ALICE attachements. That was really cool actually. Then he modified his FLC to fit him better and be more adjustable. He really needs to go to work for one of the gear makers. Do what I was joking he should do, walk into TT with the stuff he made as his resume.
The XO got away with his unauthorised weapon mod, he added a Hogue grip to his M9. And I got shit for having my front sight orange instead of white.
Good flashlights should be issued, but aren't issued to everyone and this is something that needs to change.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 12:48:07 AM EDT
Didnt you guys have an officer carrying a POW 1911A1 and shot himself in the leg holstering it at Anaconda??? Heard he got promoted go figure F$chup, move-up. Saw alot of modified M16/4s in my Batt. down in Baghdad ie M-4 uppers on M-16A4s.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 5:13:17 AM EDT
CFLIC violation 1A so if you get caught, which you will beacuse evryone knows who has a sidearm issued in your unit and if u use anything other then a berreta 92fs or if your navy and can use a sig you will get caught. General order violation means you go infront of a general grade officer and 9 times outa of 10 you will lose 2 ranks, money, and maybe even sent to another unit. Not worth the risk. I would however do weapons mods as long as they are quality parts. Thw whole reason it is banned is beacuse people uesed shity parts or didnt install the right so they failed when they needed most.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 7:57:03 AM EDT
I have seen one 1911 and it belonged to an SF type
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 11:37:09 AM EDT
Ive seen captains, majors Lt Cols ect with 1911s on AKO or on the news in press conferences. Ive even seen a general. It just seems alittle odd that it is against policy if these people are saw with these weapons in public. If a general order is given out, how come Speacial Forces arnt obligated to follow it? It is Ok to modify a M16 to have an 11 inch upper that seems more serious than having a sidarm to me. It seems like the rules are only enforced part of the time.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:46:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigjross_2002:
Ive seen captains, majors Lt Cols ect with 1911s on AKO or on the news in press conferences. Ive even seen a general. It just seems alittle odd that it is against policy if these people are saw with these weapons in public. If a general order is given out, how come Speacial Forces arnt obligated to follow it? It is Ok to modify a M16 to have an 11 inch upper that seems more serious than having a sidarm to me. It seems like the rules are only enforced part of the time.



The SF types are issued more than a few weapons/weapons systems that the conventional component isn't issued. One of those is the 1911 pistol.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:56:58 AM EDT
SF are "probably" issued those items. I say "probably" because I was never SF or had experience working with them. I have seen them here with unique weapons.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:23:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
Didnt you guys have an officer carrying a POW 1911A1 and shot himself in the leg holstering it at Anaconda??? Heard he got promoted go figure F$chup, move-up. Saw alot of modified M16/4s in my Batt. down in Baghdad ie M-4 uppers on M-16A4s.



When you say "you guys" I really hope that you aren't trying to include those of us who were screwed and attached to the 2/146. I will make a special trip over the mountains just to kick your ass for that.

Any way, I think it was the batallion S3 of the 2/146 that shot shot himself in the leg. I didn't hear it was a POW though. I didn't think that any of the 146 actually went to Iraq except the guys who were doing counterbattery radar or something like that.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 1:00:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Renn:
I have seen one 1911 and it belonged to an SF type



SF units are generally more liberal in what they will allow, but the higher-speed types I know who have taken personal sidearms had to add their POW to the unit property book, making it government property forever. It depends on what your unit will do for you, and there are probably a surprising number of ways to get things done legally, but the SF units will generally do things that other units won't even discuss doing even if they are authouized.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:03:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
SF units are generally more liberal in what they will allow, but the higher-speed types I know who have taken personal sidearms had to add their POW to the unit property book, making it government property forever. It depends on what your unit will do for you, and there are probably a surprising number of ways to get things done legally, but the SF units will generally do things that other units won't even discuss doing even if they are authouized.



That is what I have heard, units can add or remove items from their MTOE at the discretion of the commander. What was told to me is these weapons were added as a result of a lack of M9s and they were removed from the MTOE upon arrival back to the states. It isnt like the soldier were sneaking them over, simply checking them in. The guy I have talked to told me that soldier did have to use ball ammo because if HP ammo was used they could be artical 15ed. Most people according to him carried either SIGs or M1911s. The problem with the .45 over there was aquiring ammo if you didnt bring a large enough stock with the unit. 9mm ball was obviously easy to get.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:49:10 PM EDT
as the theater "matures" more rules are written and or enforced. For example when i was there initally under 1st cav they tolerated thingsa the followon command (3rd id) did not. also some units especially guard units may have completely emptied out arms rooms to ship to iraq and if a few 1911's were in a dusty corner and still on the books, they could be issued out and used. also if a unit decided to purchase some weapon or accesory with unit funds and issue it out, it would then be an issued weapon not a personnaly owned weapon and that can explain some variables. As far as rifles go, my unit tolerated us modifying our rifles/m-4 -rail systems putting telestocks on rifles short 10-12" barrels and so on.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:23:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:09:40 PM EDT
SF units have older GI 1911 in inventory. It's either that or the M9. The Greyhound bus-sized MK23 is joke, no one uses it.

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:28:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OrionSix:
General Order #1 no personally owned weapons.




+1

Though I have seen a few custom AR uppers enter the box.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:12:29 PM EDT
When I went over when the shit just hit the fan we had an order of some kind stating what was allowed to be taken over and PO weapons were on the list. but the way it worked out was that you basicaly couldnt bring them back
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:38:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:39:47 PM EDT by DvlDog]
our camp in AFG was mostly Army and the Sgtmjr had a hard-on for any of his soldiers with non-reg gear. he went so far as to forbid boonie covers and watch caps among the soldiers. a lot of soldiers with privately purchased optics got screwed too. everyonce in awhile he would try to screw with me, one of my Marines or a Marine from another unit and at one point i thought i was going to see a throw-down between two E-9s. as far as mods went, replacement uppers were usually ok. no one bought shorties because we knew how useless they are in the wide open spaces of AFG, but there were some tele-stocks but they were a pain in the ass because the armorer had to put them on for you and you know how it is getting an armorer to do anything. its like going to the DMV.

i had an SN-4 on top of my A4 and that was all i needed. most mods were slings, lights etc. a certain Marine and member of this board who may or may not be typing this right now took a police trade-in 92FS with him to the sand and no one was the wiser. handed it off to my, er uh HIS replacement when he left.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:05:59 AM EDT
1) Personally owned weapons are illegal under General Order No. 1
2) If you are careful, you very well may be able to bring a POW, if you don't brandish it, and esp. if it is an issue type. They don't really check your stuff coming over.
3) However, it will be nearly impossible to get that POW back into the States.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:47:33 AM EDT
I sent a couple boxes of original Black Talon 9 mm with my nephew who spent almost 18 mo in Iraq, and another couple of boxes with my brother who spent a year in Afganistan, he was able to take along a chiefs mod 60.
Lets just say the gifts were greatly appreciated by them and others there. The gifts stayed there.
They didn't have to use them. Thank God.

Lebrew
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:20:46 PM EDT
Trying to get your nephew and brother an Article 15 or a Court Martial?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:26:55 PM EDT
Things may (and probably) have changed over the last few years, but I do know it depends on your unit and you shouldn't expect to get your weapon back in the states - unless you have some seriously high connections, or fool proof ways around customs...
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:36:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
a certain Marine and member of this board who may or may not be typing this right now took a police trade-in 92FS with him to the sand and no one was the wiser. handed it off to my, er uh HIS replacement when he left.

I heard about another Marine here who bought a (probably stolen) Glock 17 off an Oceanside crack dealer and took it. He might have buried it in the berm next to one of the shitters at Camp Guam on Camp Coyote, Kuwait.

Crazy how that sort of thing works out.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:49:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
Didnt you guys have an officer carrying a POW 1911A1 and shot himself in the leg holstering it at Anaconda???


3rd Corp S-2 did that. There were 172 1911's available for our entire company (Delta 181-81st...we had the NECP and East gates) that we were chomping at the bit to get...until that. They all came back to the US un-issued. We wound up with 3 M9's among 6 officers for the whole year.

sad
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:54:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lebrew:
I sent a couple boxes of original Black Talon 9 mm with my nephew who spent almost 18 mo in Iraq, and another couple of boxes with my brother who spent a year in Afganistan, he was able to take along a chiefs mod 60.
Lets just say the gifts were greatly appreciated by them and others there. The gifts stayed there.
They didn't have to use them. Thank God.

Lebrew



Good thing he didn't use them. He would have a tough time explaining the nickle cases, and illegal ammo in his weapon.

The "gifts" stayed there, because they are not allowed to leave country with them....if wasn't confiscated first.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 12:47:25 PM EDT
If he has a halfd way decent chain of command nothing would happen to him, as nothing would be said. If he is in a POG unit somthing would because they simply fight wars out of the rulebook. The moral of the story is dont get caught. I would rather have men try me than carry me anyways.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 1:35:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigjross_2002:
If he has a halfd way decent chain of command nothing would happen to him, as nothing would be said. If he is in a POG unit somthing would because they simply fight wars out of the rulebook. The moral of the story is dont get caught. I would rather have men try me than carry me anyways.



That's nice; however we are better than "them" because we follow the rules. Now personally I think the rules against the types of ammunition are misinterpreted and take an exceedingly conservative view that I do not agree with.

You seem to suggest that a "half way decent CoC" would cover up violations of lawful orders; this of course puts the CoC in the position of determining not of what is legal or not legal; but making the arbitrary decision to enforce and carry out only the orders they agree with. This is exactly how the Chain of Command and discipline breakdown. And if that makes me a pogue in your eyes so be it. My oath was to the Constitution and the officers appointed over me. What about yours?
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 1:53:32 PM EDT
Let me also add that what inevitably gets people in trouble is not the crime, but the coverup. The "halfaway decent CoC" that has covered up for the one Soldier has now embarrassed the entire service and the nation when it is discovered by rest of the world, and it will be discovered. Despite some people outside the military trying to exploit the Abu Gahrib story, the real and uplifitng part of that story is that a Soldier reported it, and the Army investigated and prosecuted people for it. If we don't police ourselves we invite being polcied by people I assure you we do not want polcing us.
Link Posted: 2/18/2006 6:04:34 PM EDT
bigjross_2002 are you an ROTC cadet? If so - ping TANGOCHASER -someone needs to do a little remedial instruction.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 10:13:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/19/2006 10:24:14 AM EDT by bigjross_2002]
I am a prior service and now an SMP cadet. So I have some experiance as I was enlisted before. So you can save me the formalities. All I know is that regulations can get your guys killed at times. Im not say deliberately break the rules I am just making that point.

Using Abu Garib as an example in this case is alittle over the top. No one is talking about mistreating prisoners or acting in an uncivil matter on the battlefield.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 11:24:18 AM EDT
Having watched this discussion here a thousand times, the loophole that I have seen in this, the way to do it legally (I am told--Im no expert!) is to get a pistol, have it entered into the units property books, take it with you and leave it with the unit. It becomes government property. Of course the chain of command would have to agree. Its worth investigating. Just thought I would pass on the idea, as it hasn't been raised in this thread.
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 1:27:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:41:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Having watched this discussion here a thousand times, the loophole that I have seen in this, the way to do it legally (I am told--Im no expert!) is to get a pistol, have it entered into the units property books, take it with you and leave it with the unit. It becomes government property. Of course the chain of command would have to agree. Its worth investigating. Just thought I would pass on the idea, as it hasn't been raised in this thread.



There is no way to simply add a pistol to the property books.. Especially not in a conventional unit. If that was the case, why have I been deploying with an M4A1 all these years? Why didnt I just buy a -insert favorite rifle name here- and use that?

Unit property books are all computerized and in sync with Army property books via the internet. Trying to add something like a weapon, secure commo piece, etc without authorization etc will sound off alarms. Its not like you are doing a "found on installation" on a computer or piece of kit.

If it was possible, you would have to have your Company commander sign off, your property book officer sign off, and possibly your Battalion commander.. None of them are going to touch it with a ten foot pole. Besides the obvious, there is the always stupid big Army rule (actual Army reg) of having to be qualified on a weapon.. What, are you going to run a range with 20x types of pistols? Might be able to get away with this one, but the first time someone has an AD, the command will be scrambling to pass any blame onto the soldier ("He was qualified on it!" )...

Only way to have any sort of non reg weapon, local pickup, etc is with the stuff off the books and people looking the other way.. Might be able to get away with it in a laid back SF unit far from the flag pole, but would never happen in leg land.

SF units have a foreign weapons pool, generally at the battalion level.. Stuff like AKs, PKMs, HKs, MG3s, even pistols... But these weapons are non deployable anyway, as they basically belong to SWC (Special Warfare center at Ft.Bragg). There goes the idea of taking the Galil on the next deployment.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 8:54:34 AM EDT
Ain't that the truth!

There is no way to 'add' additional weapons or vehicles to a TOE\TDA. They check these things and your 'excess' gets snatched by BN or BDE for their use. Trust me, I've seen it happen.


Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Having watched this discussion here a thousand times, the loophole that I have seen in this, the way to do it legally (I am told--Im no expert!)

Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:46:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Ain't that the truth!

There is no way to 'add' additional weapons or vehicles to a TOE\TDA. They check these things and your 'excess' gets snatched by BN or BDE for their use. Trust me, I've seen it happen.


Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Having watched this discussion here a thousand times, the loophole that I have seen in this, the way to do it legally (I am told--Im no expert!)




Please strike my statement. There were some GIs reporting that it worked, I was trying to help him by suggesting he check it out.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:10:34 PM EDT
You don't need your POW or ammunition in theatre. If you think your issue weapon and ammo is not up to the job to the point you feel the need to augment it you (1) may need more training on the employment of that weapon or (2) do not need to be in the service.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:12:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigjross_2002:
I have heard a rumor about some units being allowed to bring personal sidearms when deploying to Iraq/Afghanistan (if checked in to the 1SG. I have heard this in both the guard and the reserve from fellow soldiers/NCOS. Is this a rumor or is there any truth to it. I was told the only requirment is Ball ammunition must be used and one must qaulify on said handgun.



No privately owned weapon is allowed in theater. It violates General Order 1A which was handed down by General Franks.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 1:16:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigjross_2002:

Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
SF units are generally more liberal in what they will allow, but the higher-speed types I know who have taken personal sidearms had to add their POW to the unit property book, making it government property forever. It depends on what your unit will do for you, and there are probably a surprising number of ways to get things done legally, but the SF units will generally do things that other units won't even discuss doing even if they are authouized.



That is what I have heard, units can add or remove items from their MTOE at the discretion of the commander. What was told to me is these weapons were added as a result of a lack of M9s and they were removed from the MTOE upon arrival back to the states. It isnt like the soldier were sneaking them over, simply checking them in. The guy I have talked to told me that soldier did have to use ball ammo because if HP ammo was used they could be artical 15ed. Most people according to him carried either SIGs or M1911s. The problem with the .45 over there was aquiring ammo if you didnt bring a large enough stock with the unit. 9mm ball was obviously easy to get.



The guy you talked to is wrong, they are not allowing people or units to bring POWs or 1911s.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:36:01 AM EDT
you know, this was a hot topic pre-deployment, but mostly what we do now is carry "confiscated" weapons from detainees. What i'd really like to know is the deal on civilian ammo, as my s4 categorically refuses to get me 158gr JHP 7.62X51match grade for my M14... thinkin about going to Georgia Arms; any thoughts?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 8:45:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OrionSix:
You don't need your POW or ammunition in theatre. If you think your issue weapon and ammo is not up to the job to the point you feel the need to augment it you (1) may need more training on the employment of that weapon or (2) do not need to be in the service.



That misses the point of a sidearm entirley. It is merely to augment the rifle, in case of malfunction, the most common variety of which is going empty. A pistol beats a reload, any day.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:37:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By OrionSix:
You don't need your POW or ammunition in theatre. If you think your issue weapon and ammo is not up to the job to the point you feel the need to augment it you (1) may need more training on the employment of that weapon or (2) do not need to be in the service.



That misses the point of a sidearm entirley. It is merely to augment the rifle, in case of malfunction, the most common variety of which is going empty. A pistol beats a reload, any day.



Don't get me wrong, if I could provide all my troops with a sidearm (and the appropriate training) I would, just as I would secure a rifle for myself and the soldiers assgined an M9 as well. I meant that comment within the confines of the General Order. There is not so much danger one needs to violate the general order.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 2:03:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OrionSix:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By OrionSix:
You don't need your POW or ammunition in theatre. If you think your issue weapon and ammo is not up to the job to the point you feel the need to augment it you (1) may need more training on the employment of that weapon or (2) do not need to be in the service.



That misses the point of a sidearm entirley. It is merely to augment the rifle, in case of malfunction, the most common variety of which is going empty. A pistol beats a reload, any day.



Don't get me wrong, if I could provide all my troops with a sidearm (and the appropriate training) I would, just as I would secure a rifle for myself and the soldiers assgined an M9 as well. I meant that comment within the confines of the General Order. There is not so much danger one needs to violate the general order.



Having trained quite a bit on the M9 as a SOF support soldier, I pretty much feel they are a feel good device during standard operations.

They used to be more of a status symbol, or useful to carry around camp when you were required to carry a weapon, but there was no real threat....

You are not going to be all out by yourself if something happens with your long gun.. Others will be there. In the mean time, you can either fix your shit or find another long gun to use...

Also, it takes allot of training to shoot well with them.. I thought I was pretty good, until I tried to US Army Alternate qual course....Earned sharpshooter for the first time..And I was the top shooter, except for our OPs SGT, who spent 4 years in a CT company and went to the range almost every day...

Oddly enough, the position that you thought would be the easiest - prone is the biggest pain.... Getting them all center mass from the standing position is no problem, but once you start from some weird positions, I am hosed.


Link Posted: 2/21/2006 2:29:40 PM EDT
I am not a fan of a pistol for general issue, specifically because of the lack of training (read safe handling and effective use). If arms training were more comprehensive, it could be a worthwhile endeavor. Until then, I am all for using handguns as a specialists weapon. That said, I would feel naked leaving a secure location without two firearms... but then I know how to use them.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:44:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 4:59:45 PM EDT by Sgt_Gold]
Mall ninja training will get you killed every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Tell me, what do you do when your pistol runs dry, pull your Swiss army knife? I'm in 100% aggrement with OrionSix on this one, learn to use your issue weapon and learn it well.

The whole point of a pistol is to arm Soldiers who soldiers who normally don't cary a rifle while using crew served weapons, or crew vehicles.


Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

That misses the point of a sidearm entirley. It is merely to augment the rifle, in case of malfunction, the most common variety of which is going empty. A pistol beats a reload, any day.

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