Just curious as to what some of you think about this. I have a few ideas of my own, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

This insane epidemic of priests molesting kids. All over the news, hundreds and hundreds of children molested....priests being shuffled from one parish to another, all the while their superiors doing nothing to prevent these perverts from continuing their sick behavior. Not only doing nothing, but over years, being fully aware that these same priests continue to molest kids. If it's not a pedophile priest molesting kids, it's their superiors knowingly propagating the crimes through conscious inaction, combined with proactive efforts that facilitate future crimes against children.

Furthermore, these people aren't your average citizens. These people hold themselves up as highly moral and ethical messengers of gods word. They have chosen, possibly the ONLY profession that commands many to follow with blind trust. All the while acting like depraved, sick pedophiles and utilizing their position of trust and titles to rape and molest little kids. If that isn't the very definition of evil, I don't know what is.

The Catholic church has shelled out hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in hush money to keep their disgusting secret from staining their faith. I'm an atheist, but that seems mighty ungodly to me.....but disturbingly natural to the entire Catholic institutions hierarchy.

Another disgusting facet to all this is the nature of many of these crimes. The vast majority is not only pedophile molestation, it's homosexual pedophilia. That strikes me as especially disgusting simply because of all the worlds religions, few are as openly against homosexuality as Catholicism. Doesn't the Catholic church seem like an unusual place for a massive congregation of homosexual pedophiles to gather?

When the news gets a hold of your average Joe Pedophile, who has molested a couple of kids, there's extreme outrage that always follows. For some reason, because of the building they work in, the titles they hold and the clothes they wear, the outrage here is grossly muted. As if they deserve better treatment? Some of you might claim that there has been outrage....great....how many decades later? How many child victims later? This is one of the largest instances of organized sexual crime possibly in the history of the world, and the reaction is a wait-and -see game. Waiting for the church to cooperate. Waiting to let these freaks attempt to police themselves....and decide how they choose to handle it. It's absolutely amazing that a massive round up has not taken place. Where are the sweeping arrests? Where are the protectors of these kids?

I'm interested in hearing comments, but please spare me the other-religions-do-this-too crap. That isn't the point....and they aren't ALL OVER the news these days. I'm sure this isn't isolated exclusively to Catholic priests. The fact is though that Catholic leaders on many levels have raised the bar in this sick behavior and have brought this on themselves on an astonishingly massive scale.

What are your thoughts? How do YOU think this should be handled? Personally, like all child molesters I think they should be tried and if found guilty lined up and shot dead on sight. And yes, I'd be more than thrilled to be the guy pulling the trigger. Prison would just put them on the "receiving end"....no punishment there.

i guess thats why i lost my faith in the church.
i still have my faith in god,and it carried me through some tough times.
children sometimes have no one to turn to,or they are too embarressed or frightened to say anything.
I AM A VICTIM.
first hand i know what one goes through.
you feel embarressed,don't want to tell your parents for a fear they might not want you anymore,i got very confused.
i wanted my parents to love me but i was very afraid they would be mad at meand would not love me anymore
how do i feel now,
angry at the catholic church for letting this go on for hundreds of years.
this is not something that has just developed.
parents need to communicate with their children and establish a bonding trust.
so if your child needs to they can come to you unashamed,and tell you there fears.
rescue92

"Doesn't the Catholic church seem like an unusual place for a massive congragation of homosexual pedophiles to gather?"

Not really, the church is concerned with its image above all else. They have covered up the cases to protect this image.  The pedophile has the perfect spot.
A. He is(well was) above suspicion
B. He has frequent easy access to children
C. If caught in the act his employer covers up for him. The church considers it a failing of faith not a crime.
A little fact. Priests used to be able to marry but the church didnt want sons inheriting assets from their fathers, they wanted it,  so the church decided to make celibacy mandatory.
If the church is to survive they need to make drastic changes in not only celibacy issues but also in allowing women greater participation.
I am a catholic btw, and I find the crimes and coverups disgusting

rescue91...

Was your experience a church related experience? Or are you relating something unrelated to the church? I'm not suggesting that one is less troubling than the other....just wondering.

Well said....my exact sentiments.

Well thought out analysis and questions [b]M4[/b].

To start I must first object to your statement:
[i]"This is one of the largest instances of organized sexual crime possibly in the history of the world...'[/i]
That's quite an exaggeration considering millions of children sold into child prostitution around the world, and the fast-growing blackmarket in extreme porn/rape "entertainment" videos around the world.  Sure, pedophiliac priests are an abomination - but keep it in perspective.

Now onto you main point.
Yes, I am deeply horrified and sickened by what is being reported in the news about priests and kids.  I have to admit, when I am in Church on Sunday - there has been an occasion or two recently where I would find myself looking at the priest or deacon and fleetingly wonder, "Could it be him to?"

But that only affects my view of a particular person(s) - not the Church, and certainly not God.  

The Church is the whole body of believers, not just the Pope or the Cardinals or Bishops or Priests. I believe in the Church but my faith is in God, not the Church.

This has no effect on Church teachings - only how crimes committed by priests are handled by the Church.

As far as the "wall of news coverage" you hear about it everyday, you must admit there are powerful groups in our society that would love to destroy all religious institutions and what better way than to enflame and incite suspicion and animosity towards the [u]Church[/u] itself - as opposed to the individuals committing the acts and covering it up.

When police brutality and corruption occurs, do we question whether the law enforcement [u]institution[/u] itself is corrupt? No, focus attention onto the individuals committing the acts, regardless of how high it goes. We don't attack the very notion of "police" in general.

But that is what is happening with the Church. "Can the Church survive?" is a common slant from journalists covering this story.  That probably comes from a latent hostility to all religious institutions and desire to weaken the acceptance of the Church's teachings in society.

Okay, I've droned on plenty now, and I could continue ad nauseum but for the Chars Max limit.

Thanks for starting a dialogue on this topic.

thanks for the support guys.
yes "my nightmare" was church related,i am a non-practicing catholic(i have lost my faith in the church but not my faith in god).
I AM A VICTIM,it took 20 years for me to realize what i was,always thought it was my fault.
god has given me the strength to live on and forgive.
my only loss is,this person is dead and i will not in my lifetime be able to face him and tell him how wrong he was,and how in a way that he was a thief.
stealing the trust and innocence of a child,hurts.......
rescue92

And then hell?

What is the Scripture that has Jesus saying something to the effect of "...should anyone harm these children..." ???

I don't recall where it is, but, I distinctly remember a verse pertaining to punishment for those that harm the innocent children.
Help me out here.

THINK of all of those kids who have suffered throughout the centuries and the number of trusted "priests" who have some kind of Hell to pay.

The_Macallan....

I honestly appreciate and respect your points, but I do have a point of contention to some degree.

To me, for you to focus on the media's spin on this subject seems remarkable in comparison to what facts we are dealing with here. I agree that some people really have it in for the church, myself included at times. But given this surreal tally of child molestation victims/criminals, personally there's only one place for my outrage, and that's on the subject at hand. Anything else, though possibly very valid, is a minor detail in comparrison to the wake of suffering and betrayal left behind from all of this. The sickening flavor left in our mouths from this has very little to do with perceptions or prejudices and everything to do with facts and criminal realities.

There's a time to bridge the subject of the medias approach and other side issues, but for me, I think it's a grave disservice to the young victims to distarct from the crimes themselves. They deserve far more justice than what's been given, and the spotlight shouldn't be moved one inch until justice is served.

The roots of it's historic causes, the way institutions are viewed and treated, the media....all reasonable side subjects, but come on, HUNDREDS of children have been and currently are being raped and molested. In the first things first debate, there is no debate.

I can agree with thebeekeeper, the American Bishops have pretty much brought this on themselves. But, the_Macallan is right on the mark.
And, as bad as it is now, this is not the worst period for the Church. During the 16th Century, the Church was pratically a refuge for homosexuals. The "Barbarini Popes" were criminals as was Cesare Borgia (yes, he was a Pope.) And, don't forget the false French Papacy at Avignon.
It took a Protestant Reformation and then a Catholic Restoration to remove a lot of the corruption out of the Church. What it will take now is for the leadership of the American Bishops to do the right thing.

[b]M4[/b], I was hoping it wouldn't come across like I was trying to dodge the issue or run a red herring across this question.

If it did, I apologize. Let me restate my point.
I agree that the focus of our anger and attack should be against the [u]individuals[/u] involved in these horrible crimes and those who covered/hushed it up, no matter how high it goes.

I can see how this would cause some to lose respect for the Church. But the Church is not to blame. There has been a long history of atrocities committed under ALL human-run institutions including the Catholic Church. It's practically inevitable. BUT the Church itself is not to blame.  

This may be a fine distinction, but I don't so easily condemn or reject an institution that I've been a part of my whole life (two of my uncles are priests too) because of the actions of a small proportion of individuals of that institution.

There is infinitely more good than bad happening because of the Catholic Church.

I was born and raised Catholic. Got away from going to church in my late teens [late 60s]. Was never an alter boy or any of that knid of crap. But why is everybody so surprised about this. Ever since the early 60s its been common knowledge that priests, scout masters and most coaches are fags. Thats why they get those type of jobs. We don't need people like this in our society. They cannot be rehabilatated.  

Matthew 18:1-6 ~

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;"

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. "





I think Jesus' sentence should be carried out posthaste.

I don't know.  When a Bishop takes his oath he promises to protect the image of the church.  I find it highly unlikely that the Vatican was left in the dark about what was happening.  The church is to blame for allowing it to happen just as an employer is responsible for his employees actions. I think the church could have shown a lot more integrity if they had admitted the problems and dealt with them in a proper manner.

Good points.....I definately understand what you're saying. I guess by writing this thread I was looking more for direct dialog regarding the crimes at hand.....and not so much the discussion of whether the church itself is to blame.

We have hundreds of victims, most of which are children. We have criminals committing the gravest of offenses, repeatedly. My main question was really what should specifically be done with the people involved?

Believe me, I have no interest in some mass punishment for every Catholic priest, cardinal or bishop. Just the ones involved in either commiting crimes against kids, or knowing about the crimes and consciously doing nothing about it. It's organized crime any way you slice it.

rescue91
You have a lot of strength and courage.
You are a survivor.
I wish you the best in life.

ARH

BURN THE FUCKING PERVERTS!!!!!!!!

ARH

Another vote for "pure evil".

Criminal freakshow.

For a group (the higher ups) that make such a big deal out of morality, they dropped the ball on this, yes?

If this were any other group, there would be a lynch mob ready to string them up. But since "they're men of god" they should be forgiven/overlooked/understood whatever.

Bubbas waiting holy man! Hmmm, they might like that.....

Real quick, if these sex scandals don't qualify as a conspiracy to conceal criminal activity, wtf does???

100% Outrage! [pissed]

Skin those f*ckers alive!!!

Tyler

It's called ephebophilia (attraction to teenage boys), and it's not pedophilia (attraction to pre-pubescent children).  The media doesn't distinguish between these two disgusting disorders, even though the law and physchology do.  The vast majority of the priest abuse cases are [b]not[/b] pedophilia (which is considered incurable), but ephebophilia (which [b]is[/b] considered curable).  Let's make sure we know what exactly we're talking about.  The majority of the abusers aren't pedophiles.  They're homosexuals who may be emotionally stunted in their own psycho-sexual development (hence the bishops' idea that if they got treated, they'd be able to return to ministry w/o abusing any more boys).  

Did the bishops exercise poor judgement in considering it only a sin problem instead of a sin that is also a crime?  Of course.  Should they have been tried in a court of law for it?  Of course.  Should they have been removed from access to kids?  Naturally.   Should they be reported to authorities from now on?  You bet. Are all of us Catholics now paying the price for the bishops' poor judgement?  You bet.  Am I angry about it?  Yes, although I'm more disgusted and saddened for the victims than I am angry.  When any Christian (let alone a Catholic priest) commits sin, the entire Body of Christ suffers (1 Corinthians 12:26), including me.    

edited to add:  The dioceses should continue to pay for the therapy for the victims (which most do already, either in the monetary amount, or by actually paying the bill).

Most of the priests who have been involved in these atrocities were in seminary during the late 50s to 70s (during the sexual revolution), when most of the Western world was rejecting the Church's view on sexuality.  Sadly, even those in the Church who controlled academia in the seminaries fell victim to this infection and thus led astray many priests.  Other's deliberately worked to undermine priestly formation in seminaries to affect the next generation of priests.  They also didn't help screen out those men who didn't belong there due to sexual/emotional immaturity or peversion.  It's very telling that most of the abusers were educated at a time when the Church's teachings were being rejected.  The Church's teachings aren't the problem.  It's the rejection of them that's the problem.  I think GK Chesterton said it very well.  "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."  The same is true for the Church's teachings on sexuality.  Her teachings have not been tried and found wanting, they have been found difficult and rejected instead of relying on God's grace to strengthen us to endure.

Also, some homosexuals saw the Church's requirement of celibacy as a way out.  They knew homosexual behavior is sinful, and they figured that just promising to be celibate would actually make them celibate.  They forgot/ignored the part about relying on God to resist temptation (goes back to poor formation in seminary).  They also didn't follow the Church's admonition to not put ourselves in a near occassion of sin (if you know that situation A could tempt you to sin, stay away from situation A).  

The media doesn't believe in sin, so they'll never address the problem correctly.  It's a sin problem, and the only remedy is to repent and return to Christ and His teachings (the very teachings the media rejects, hence they'll never address the problem correctly).  The following link explains the problem and solution very well.  [url]http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=12253[/url]


I'd like to know where your source of info is for the number of kids currently being molested.  Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? or do we believe in guilt by association now?

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Loonybin, Being a homosexual does make you an ephebophile or pedophile.  I like women but not 14 y/o girls.  These guilty Priests have a lot more wrong with them then repressed homosexual feelings.

orginally posted by looneybin:





These two statements appear to contradict each other unless I am missing something.
The church viewed the pedohile priest as commiting a sin and sent them away for "remedy" and then allow them to return instead of treating it as a crime in the first place.

Something that seems to be lost is that the number of accused since the late 1950's - 1960's is something like 75 total.  We are talking about 1 in a thousand.  

Don't call them all guilty by association.  I wonder how this board's Catholic bashers can contain their glee?  

Yes, the scandal is the result of  very poor judgement on the part of a handful of Bishops.  They are not supermen, and I have known a few priests that were totally naive about the secular world.  These guys had no business outside a cloistered monastery.  I've met the same type in the military, too.

These priests who abused thier office sound like skilled liars and manipulaters.  We saw one of them up close and personal for eight years.  How long IS he getting away with it?

It is a crisis of leaders, not the Church and not the faith and not its policies.

See you at Mass tomorrow.

Poor judgement? If that isn't the understatement of the century, I don't know what is. Criminal conspiracy associated with the repeated molestation of hundreds of children spanning years and years and years equates to "poor judgement"? Wow.

Nobody has done that at all. Nobody has said the entire Catholic church is guilty of anything.  This isn't about bashing Catholics. This is about bashing people who either directly molest kids, cloaked in the trust of the Catholic faith, and the bashing of those superiors who knew about it, and through their actions propigated it. It's a criminal conspiracy by those involved, plain and simple.

Forgive me if I have a hard time understanding someone whose main focus can be anywhere other than on the side of direct justice and help for the kids who have been hurt over the years. Unbelievable.

A) Hundreds of children have been documented by the Catholic church itself.

B) If you think the molestation has come to a scretching halt all of a sudden, you've got to be kidding.

C) What are you talking about with this "guilt by association"? Is there not enough of a pattern here to devote serious long term scrutiny to this situation? The only people who should be concerned in the least are the guilty. Given the nature of their sick crimes, I personally believe that every mmeasure should be taken to weed them out. Obviously they are quite incapable of policing themselves. That isn't an area of expertise in ANY religion...thats why we have law enforcement.

I'd say innocent children are well worth it.

It was the "policy" of covering it up and protecting the churchs image that has blown this stuff up.  It doesnt take a "superman" to know that abusing kids is wrong.  I would have more faith in the church if they would own up to it and quit dragging their feet even if it was only one Priest that did it.  By doing this they tarnish and degrade my church.

Just look at his silly jewel encrusted hat and its easy to see that the Catholic church is damned, and bent on exalting themselves, not Christ. If your a Catholic, I challenge you to join the protestant "faith" and ditch the catholic "religion". After all, I take shits religiously, but thats not gonna save my or anyones ass from hell, right?

[devil]<----the pope

I have no desire or feel the challenge to join a protestant faith, thanks anyway.

As I pointed out earlier, it is the clergy responsible for this. Never blamed everybody who is catholic. But I am seeing some of the type of replies I was expecting. These scum should be shown no mercy. If it was anyone else, they would be in jail by now.

Who cares about why or what led them to it. They did it, now it's time to pay the piper. What happened to accountability?

Guess it is true. If you have enough money, you can buy your way out of anything.

I was raised Catholic


I have one uncle who is a Priest.


I have TWO aunts who are Nuns...


I am an ATHIEST!!!!

I was NEVER an Alterboy as I always thought that things were a little too weird.

Say what?  Nearly every scoutmaster I had was a married guy with kids who got into it because he wanted to spend time with his sons.  I've run into exactly two who weren't in it for that reason, and only one of those was a weirdo -- he didn't stick around long, but was probably ok.

Qll I can say is WOW!! Glad we are Anglican!

True.  I was just trying to draw the distinction between pedophilia (pre-puberty, which can be either sex), and ephebophilia (which is strictly homosexual attraction to teenage boys).  I'm sure not all homosexual priests are ephebophiles (and yes, there are homosexual priests who are successfully living chaste, celibate lives).



That does sound confusing doesn't it?  What I'm trying to say is that the bishops treated it as a sin problem, but they failed to seek the proper remedy for that sin problem.  The "remedy" they chose was phychological counseling, but where is the repentance for the sin (which necessarily includes reparation for the wrongs committed) to go along with the therapy?  Such a sin should necessarily include prosecution (the temporal consequences of their actions) as reparation .  Instead, the bishops listened to shrinks who said "he's cured.  He can go back to ministry now," instead of notifying the police and removing him from his ministry (if jail time didn't do that already).

My point about the media is that sin doesn't enter the picture for them, thus their sensationalistic reporting "is the Church doomed?" etc. and their "solutions" don't address the problem.  Sadly, no one has properly addressed the problem.  Fr. Landry's article is a start, but there need to be more people taking his approach.

I hope this is making sense.  My sleep-deprived mind is trying to type coherently.

where's the choice for "all of the above?"
that these crimes have been going on for so long with little or no action taken or punishment meted out is horrible.

Try to add something constructive to this discussion, please.

That does clear up what you were saying Loonybin.  I don't think the church is doomed like the media says but I do think they need to relook at allowing married Priest as well as women serve.  I mean you go to a Priest about say marriage problems, how is he really going to be able to help you since he has never been there. I think the freshness of this is something the church needs.

i feel compelled to chime in again on this.
i thought i was done but i guess not.
this type of predatory behavior is widspread.
the individuals who perpetrate this type of behavior are predators,they are cunning individuals,once routed out of a certain niche in society they WILL find another niche to hide in.
yes the media has focused in on the catholic church,yes there will be alot of damage to the catholic religion,but when all is said and done maybe the church will once again become a sanctuary.
in 1972 there was really no one to go to,society was focused on other problems.
in 1972 our parents were from a generation where men were men and women were women,and we just didn't talk about the "in between" ,especially not a priest.
i spent many a night trying to figure out how to tell someone what iwas going through,but the end result in my mind was being embaressed or being at fault.
we are not the same society we once were and this is a history of how we change.
one day i may go back to the catholic church,but for now i find strength in god.
please do not divide yourselves on this subject.
it is not about religion or bible quotes,it is about an evil that has invaded our society and has found it's way into something wehold sacred.
rescue92

Several responses to this:

First the short answer:
Being married is not what stops ME from being a pedophile. Is simply being married the thing that stops anyone here from being a pedophile? I thought not. So that's that.


Now the long answer:
In the Catholic Church, the priest is "married" to the Church. He should have no other distractions, obligations or conflicting responsibilites between him and his parishners. It's a calling, not merely a choice.  

Second, for the most part, counseling involves first and foremost - compassionate understanding and love. Furthermore, priests play an important role in helping the individuals to become closer to God and His teachings and to understand their  role in the Church and it's activities. One need not be married to serve people in that role.

Also, and this is often overlooked, most Catholic Churches have a wide support system within the Church that DOES include other married couples, counselors and supporters trained in marital counseling to work with people having marriage difficulties. The priest is not alone in handling/counseling ALL of his parishner's problems.

I happen to think a person truly devoted to and focused on following the example set by Jesus in today's world would offer an invaluble human perspective that could not be offered by anyone else. A priest should be different in that respect, from your drinking buddy, co-worker, or psychiatrist.

My point was not that.  My point was in allowing married Priests in you would not only get new blood but it would also help fix the crisis we are having in bringing in new Priests.  And just maybe they could do a better screening process



Read your history.  The only reason the church came up with the celibacy rule was that the church would inherit any property that a Priest owned and not his son.



Yes that does help but it also helps to have been there, why else are all the AA type programs successful?

As a practical matter most of the NCCB has for all intents and purposes declared open warfare on the Bishop of Rome and most of the doctrines and theology of the Catholic Church as a whole. As a consequence they made the deliberate effort to recruit homosexuals into the Priesthood. [url]www.goodbyegoodmen.com[/url]
As for homosexuals molesting teenage boys you should read this: [url]http://www.leaderu.com/critical/gay90.html[/url]
excerpt:
"...Perhaps Raspberry would recognize a glimpse of that genie in a letter sent to the superintendent at West Point recently by one Clinton volunteer and gay activist.
"Lifting the ban is not enough. We intend to sue in federal court as soon as the ban is lifted to ensure compensatory representation in the service academies. In particular, we intend to get a ruling mandating a set number of places for homosexuals in the Air Force Academy, the Naval Academy, and West Point."
In fact, the first few wisps of the cultural genie could be discerned as early as 1972, when more than 200 gay organizations came together to put forth their 12-point "Gay Rights Platform"--one point which was "Federal encouragement and support for pro-homosexual sex education in public schools; prepared and taught by gay men and women, presenting homosexuality as a valid, healthy preference and lifestyle."
Another was [b]"Repeal all laws governing age of consent."[/b]

I will grant that the law of priestly celibacy is of a later ecclesiastical ruling, the reason I gave is the main reason given by the Church.  

I may be wrong on this but I would think that the "inheritance" problem you state could have much more easily been dealt with by a simple decree from the Church stating that all property obtained by priests is Church property and that the priest is simply a legal representative of the Church in all property claims.

To mandate celibacy just to avoid inheritance claims is a bit extreme, don't you think?
The second half of my answer addressed this, but you snipped it.

Also, so does this mean that to a priest can offer valuable counsel a drug addict, murderer or rapist ONLY if that priest is also an ex-druggie, ex-murderer or ex-rapist?

Try reading this history.  It gives a bit of a different view on it. [url]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm[/url]

Also, check:
Matt. 19:12
1 Cor. 7:7-8, 32-35

Quoted:
[b]That does clear up what you were saying Loonybin.  I don't think the church is doomed like the media says[/b]
Well the media does not believe in a God and certainly does not believe that Jesus was the Son of God so his promise that the Church would last to the end of time holds little water with them.

[b]but I do think they need to relook at allowing married Priest as well as women serve.[/b]
Homosexuals molesting children is not going to suddenly evaporate if heterosexual priests would be allowed to be married. And as the Church has always tought, it's not that they don't want to have women as priests, it is that they recongnize that they do not have the power to ordain women. It is the teaching of the Church that God sends the Holy Spirit down when a man and woman are married (to join the 2 as one) or when a man is ordained. If a man dresses as a woman in order to fool the priest and it is really 2 men attempting to "get married", you can say the words, but there will be no marriage. Same thing for women priests, the Church has always believed that you could say the words over a woman, but no sacrament would have taken place. You might as well ask the Church to do away with gravity, or ordain a bowl of corn flakes. Christ chose only men for a reason. [url]http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/artEmasculation.asp[/url]


[b]I mean you go to a Priest about say marriage problems, how is he really going to be able to help you since he has never been there.[/b]
Yes, well, many priests did date, fall in love, maybe even have gotten engaged at one point in their life. A doctor does not have to get cancer in order to operate on and save a cancer patient. Most marriages get into problems when people forget that the sacrament of marriage was instituted of God so as to join a man and woman together WITH the Holy Blessed Trinity. It is when people forget this that marriage loses it's noble aspirations and becomes mundane and tedious, and that is when problems arise.

[b]I think the freshness of this is something the church needs.[/b]
Well, let's start with less child molesting homosexuals and see where that leads.