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Posted: 10/3/2004 10:25:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 10:39:49 AM EST by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:26:47 AM EST
are non USGI parts really bad? I was thinking about getting an M1A, but dont know what company to get one from.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:26:58 AM EST
NSW is using M1As? I thought they used all USGI M14s?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:27:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
are non USGI parts really bad? I was thinking about getting an M1A, but dont know what company to get one from.



Non-USGI parts are very poorly regarded. USGI is the preference.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:34:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 10:35:16 AM EST by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:34:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:37:40 AM EST
Nothing on my Scout has broken but she sure doesnt like my winchester 20 round mags, but runs like a champ with the supplied 10 rounder.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:38:50 AM EST
I have been wanting a M14/M1A for some time but I want a good one.
What should I look for ?
I want a forged receiver and top quality parts throughout.
Does anyone sell new ones like that ?
Fultons any good ?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:40:18 AM EST
All of the pics I have seen of NSW use M14s. USGI. I have seen footage of them shooting then in auto too, which is impressive, at least to me. I can't imagine them using cast parts when the US still has like a quarter million M14s in inventory.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:41:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:41:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:42:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I have been wanting a M14/M1A for some time but I want a good one.
What should I look for ?
I want a forged receiver and top quality parts throughout.
Does anyone sell new ones like that ?
Fultons any good ?



I hear Fulton is good, and they have lots of USGI parts if you have the bank for it, but I'm not really "in" with M1As, I don't know much more.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:42:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 10:43:39 AM EST by dport]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
All of the pics I have seen of NSW use M14s. USGI. I have seen footage of them shooting then in auto too, which is impressive, at least to me. I can't imagine them using cast parts when the US still has like a quarter million M14s in inventory.



Bingo! The Navy still has a very large inventory of M14s.

ETA: I doubt they are actually new. Rebuilt and refinished? Yes, but new?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:44:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
All of the pics I have seen of NSW use M14s. USGI. I have seen footage of them shooting then in auto too, which is impressive, at least to me. I can't imagine them using cast parts when the US still has like a quarter million M14s in inventory.



Yeah but what about the NEW ones being made for NSW?



I don't know anything about them. Are these the Smith M1As? I thought those were for the Army?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:46:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:47:14 AM EST
NSW? Naval Surface Warfare?
If so, they have a boatload of original USGI rifles at Crane Indiana. Why would they buy new when they have a bunch of as new in storage?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:49:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I have been wanting a M14/M1A for some time but I want a good one.
What should I look for ?
I want a forged receiver and top quality parts throughout.
Does anyone sell new ones like that ?
Fultons any good ?



LRB makes a forged receiver and you could have a USGI part kit built on it by Fulton. Problem is the resulting rifle will have a $2,000+ price tag.



And thats the problem.
There's no quality rifles being made at a reasonable price.
Oh well, maybe I'll stick with Garands.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 10:49:26 AM EST
OK Steyr, we're not trying to be idiots here, we're having a hard time wrapping out heads around the idea of NSW buying commercial guns when they have them in inventory. So its confirmed that SA sold M1As to NSW?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:04:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By 50cal:
NSW? Naval Surface Warfare?
If so, they have a boatload of original USGI rifles at Crane Indiana. Why would they buy new when they have a bunch of as new in storage?



Could be. NSWC Crane is Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane, Indiana. When I need new guns they do a good job of getting them to me. They were outstanding getting my M203s and GAU-17 barrels in the Gufl. Also they come out to inspect weapons every so often, most often resulting in new ones being sent.

Or it could be Naval Special Warfare, ie SPECWAR. Although, I think they get most of their weapons through Crane, just on a different line of accounting. This is the reason I'll have to trade my M11s for M9s, but it looks like the surface navy is going to buy my M4A1's from SPECWAR so I can keep 'em.

Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:40:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:41:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:44:34 AM EST
I would expect the military would spec a forged receiver, they are pretty picky with their M4s, however, I don't know the deal with SA and NSW, this is the first I have heard of it. Why they didn't pull some out of the arsenal I don't know.

I would be really surprised if the military put up with the same shit civilians do.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:50:41 AM EST
Did the CMP ever sell M14s?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 11:56:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Did the CMP ever sell M14s?



I don't think CMP ever did, there are some transferables out there though.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:04:34 PM EST
To answer the question: with the relatively few NSW sailors out there compared to the large number of M14s in the inventory I doubt they have ordered new ones. Like I said, I'm sure Crane has rebuilt a goodly number for them.

However, should they require more, whoever did the supplying would have to meet mil-spec standards. Is cast mil-spec?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:06:14 PM EST
The original Mil-Spec was for forged, I am sure, because thats what a GI M14 is. But a new spec would have to be issued, because they are buying a semi auto and not an M14. Now I'm confused.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:19:07 PM EST
When I was in the Corps, SEALs' stored some of their weapons in our Armory, they were TRW M14's that's all I ever saw.

BTW our unit had some too.

I can't imagine them buying any from anybody with what is in storage!

But then, what do I know?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:20:00 PM EST
USCG using them now.............(again) for special applications
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 12:24:55 PM EST
IF Springfield is providing M1A/M14's to the .gov they are undoubtedly cast receivers (which, BTW, are produced in Canada!). The only forged M1A/M14 receivers currently being produced are from LRB. Chinese forged receivers are good also, but they're not being imported anymore and I doubt the military would use Chicom stuff. LRB is actually coming out this winter with an M1A/M14 receiver that has 2 little rails as part of the receiver---one where the stripper clip guide goes and the other atop the receiver ring. This will eliminate the weakest link in the M1A/M14's accuracy as a sniper system.

No, CMP never sold M14's. The old ATF "once a machine gun..." rule. They did, however, sell M14 parts at one time until a couple years ago when they stopped due to the military's increased use of M14's in the WOT. I read over on Battlerifles.com (an excellent M14 site) a stat that the military has pulled over 4,000 M14's out of storage in the last 18 months, and this was several months ago.

The last M1A I had built was a Springfield receiver and ALL USGI parts. I had to scrounge around over time but eventually found all the parts. Nothing like the comfort of having all mil-spec parts.

Combat_Diver from ARFCOM is currently in Iraq with SF and he's carrying a National Match TRW M14 he drew from the arms room before deploying. He mounted an EOTech on it with a Springfield forward scout rail. He even posted pics over at Battlerifles.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 2:18:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:39:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I want proof that the military is buying commercial M14s from Springfield.

I have yet to see it.


They HAVE M14s.



+1

The governemnt is still giving M-14's away to LE agencies, if the supply was so low that the were having to contract SA to build em they wouldn't be giving the good ones away.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:25:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:31:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I want proof that the military is buying commercial M14s from Springfield.

I have yet to see it.


They HAVE M14s.




Geeze, I said IF.



IF bunnies flie out of my ass, will they have furry wings?

Both are equally as likely from my point of view.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:51:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 4:53:25 PM EST by squeezecockerp7m8]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
OR does Springfield Armory make M14s with forged receivers and internals and just pass the cast junk on the commerical market?




I can understand the comments about Springfield's cast internal parts, but calling their receivers junk is kind of a blanket statement that appears to have more basis in opinion than any facts...
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:20:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:24:53 PM EST
I don't think I have ever seen him talk in hypotheticals
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 5:26:35 PM EST
Totally off topic but kinda cool: I have a buddy who was an M14 armorer at Quantico when the Corps owned him back in the mid 1970s. He used to go over and shoot at the SEALs range, and dtold me that the SEAL Teams had a larger ammo budget than the ENTIRE Marine Corps.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:17:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 7:43:03 PM EST
If the U. S. military needs M14 rifles they get them from Anniston Army Depot in Anniston, Alabama. Government contractor Smith Enterprise in Tempe, AZ has worked on some USGI M14 rifles to sweeten them up. Smith Enterprise is tuning a small batch of USGI M14 rifles for the 2nd Marine Division. Smith Enterprise is calling these M14 Crazy Horse rifles. Smith Enterprise also converted some or will be converting some USGI M14 rifles into the the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle model for the U. S. Navy. Springfield Armory, Inc. has NOT made rifle receivers for the U. S. military. My understanding is that their SOCOM 16 M1A model was submitted for consideration but NOT chosen. There remain at least 62,000 M14 rifles in inventory within the U. S. Army. This does not include the inventory of the Navy, Air Force and Marines.

For the long, informative, FREE answer check out M14 Rifle History and Development at www.imageseek.com/m1a You have my permission to print off a copy for your personal use. It's great "library" material IMHO.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 3:47:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By 50cal:
NSW? Naval Surface Warfare?
If so, they have a boatload of original USGI rifles at Crane Indiana. Why would they buy new when they have a bunch of as new in storage?



Could be. NSWC Crane is Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane, Indiana. When I need new guns they do a good job of getting them to me. They were outstanding getting my M203s and GAU-17 barrels in the Gufl. Also they come out to inspect weapons every so often, most often resulting in new ones being sent.

Or it could be Naval Special Warfare, ie SPECWAR. Although, I think they get most of their weapons through Crane, just on a different line of accounting. This is the reason I'll have to trade my M11s for M9s, but it looks like the surface navy is going to buy my M4A1's from SPECWAR so I can keep 'em.





Navy Special Warfare.



I don't think they have ever purchased new weapons. The receivers on the old forged M-14s, like the M1 Garands, can run almost forever, though the barrels do wear out. So I don't think anyone is supplying them with new M-14's.

I suppose it is possible that they purchase some receivers for an armorer build, but I don't know if that ever happened.

Personally I would greatly prefer a Fulton to a Spangfelt any day....
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 4:04:22 AM EST
I'd put money on those coming out of the Custom Shop, which does have a fair supply of USGI parts available to it yet. There is a difference between the rifles coming off the rank and the ones coming out of the custom shop. totally different grade of smith doing the work for one, and a better grade of parts and fitting.

BTW, the failure rate on the MIM parts is probably over-reported. A classic case of probably a 1-5 ration. For ever 5 complaints, only one is original, the rest come from guys who heard about it or saw it happen.

Fulton Armory's M14 types are built with USGI parts on a cast receiver made to Fulton's specs. The receivers are made by Armscorp, but to a different set of standards than Armscorp used. Clint McKee required that his receivers be corrected in several areas (firing pin retraction bridge for one (a critical safety area) and the bolt lug locking recesses needed to have the correct helical angles as well to achieve a high level of contact lock up. There are a number of other dimensional issues that were corrected and tolerances were generally tightened up to meet Clint's standards. The result is probably the best cast receiver in the business, clearly superior to the Springfields or Armscorps receivers (at least the old ones, I don't know if they have tried to bring their total production up to the Fulton standard or not. ) Then Fulton builds the rifle using USGI parts and tunes it to Fulton performance and reliability standards.

Probably the only M14 type receiver that is as good and possibly better than the Fulton is the LRB and that solely by the virtue of its forged construction. Fulton probably will not build on an LRB receiver (since they have their own receivers now). But there are plenty of good armorers out there who can. The price tag will be high though. 2K is about right for an LRB rifle.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 4:30:18 AM EST
Are we confusing the military's own Springfield Armory in Spring field, MA to the commercial SA, now Springfield, Inc. in Illinois?
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 4:33:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/4/2004 4:36:03 AM EST by Max_Mike]

Are we confusing the military's own Springfield Armory in Spring field, MA to the commercial SA, now Springfield, Inc. in Illinois?


No.

Springfield Armory in MA is now a museum and no longer produces anything.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:13:37 AM EST
That is correct. Some people still confuse the two.
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 6:23:48 AM EST
Check out the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle video on this site

www.armedforcesjournal.com/blackwater/analysis8.html

Video is on left side

RJ
Link Posted: 10/4/2004 8:50:05 AM EST
I have not seen or heard of any commerical SA guns being used or purchased. Everyone that I've ever seen or shot has been a USGI gun. As metioned here's my M14 (TRW National Match). All the NSW guns that I've seen from my fellow divers have also been USGI.





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