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Posted: 9/17/2004 6:08:46 PM EST
A friend from South of the Border will be coming to see me in few weeks and he wants to buy a "Commando" style (10 - 12 inch) upper for his M-16 back home. He wants me to order one for him from Model 1 Sales so it will be here by the time he arrives.

Question is, is it legal for me to order this upper and have it at my house (yes I do have AR rifles at home) for few weeks? I was thinking that I should have it shipped to my brother's house since he has no AR rifles at his house. Will they even sell this upper to me (I didn't see anything that indicates that they would not sell it to me on their web site)?

Finally, what is the quality of Model 1 Sales uppers? I see that their prices are cheaper than everybody else so I'm a little leary. You know, "you get what you paid for". If not Model 1 who else well similar upper that has good reputation?

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:13:45 PM EST
Lotsa folks around here with Model 1 builds that are really happy.

As to having parts for a SBR, I would contact the local ATF office. Or just assume that your houese won't get raided. Or put the upper on a lower with no stock, making it a perfectly legal post AWB pistol. I am sure more will sound off on this shortly.....
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:17:47 PM EST
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't claim to be. but I would say that having the upper is no problem, the upper itself is not SBR, in fact the upper isn't even a weapon so it's nothing but parts until you attach it to a lower (trigger group). therefore you should be ok, even with AR's in the residence, as long as you don't put the 10-12in upper on your lower your fine. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:19:51 PM EST
I may be wrong, but I don't think you can build your own pistol unless it ( the lower) is registerd as a pistol when you buy it. Some one correct me if I am wrong.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:26:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By 6731HBAR:
I may be wrong, but I don't think you can build your own pistol unless it ( the lower) is registerd as a pistol when you buy it. Some one correct me if I am wrong.



That is correct.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:33:30 PM EST
My understanding was the opposite, that having the upper regardless of lowers was illegal. Of course, if that is the case Model 1 will likely not send it to you without proof that you have a lower you can legally mount it on.

I'd also be a bit leary of the legalities of him being able to take said upper with him when he leaves.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:35:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
My understanding was the opposite, that having the upper regardless of lowers was illegal. Of course, if that is the case Model 1 will likely not send it to you without proof that you have a lower you can legally mount it on.

I'd also be a bit leary of the legalities of him being able to take said upper with him when he leaves.



If uppers were illegal to possess then I don't think they could ship them without a FFL. can't uppers be shipped door to door with no FFL? honest question, never ordered just a upper.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:37:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By codycoyote:

Originally Posted By norman74:
My understanding was the opposite, that having the upper regardless of lowers was illegal. Of course, if that is the case Model 1 will likely not send it to you without proof that you have a lower you can legally mount it on.

I'd also be a bit leary of the legalities of him being able to take said upper with him when he leaves.



If uppers were illegal to possess then I don't think they could ship them without a FFL. can't uppers be shipped door to door with no FFL? honest question, never ordered just a upper.



Its not that it's an upper, it's that it's a 10" or SBR upper.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:38:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By codycoyote:

Originally Posted By norman74:
My understanding was the opposite, that having the upper regardless of lowers was illegal. Of course, if that is the case Model 1 will likely not send it to you without proof that you have a lower you can legally mount it on.

I'd also be a bit leary of the legalities of him being able to take said upper with him when he leaves.



If uppers were illegal to possess then I don't think they could ship them without a FFL. can't uppers be shipped door to door with no FFL? honest question, never ordered just a upper.



I had a Varmint upper shiped to my work. Nobody singed for it.

No problems.

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 6:49:20 PM EST
I think it is the length of the upper that is going to make a difference as to if your going to have a problem. If your over 16" your ok if your under you have either a SBR or a pistol. Remember this advise is free, and you get what you pay for. If I was you I'd talk to both a gunshop, and or an attorney, maybe even a plumber. All kididng aside talk to some one in the know, or perhaps even your local sheriff's office.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:09:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 7:10:18 PM EST by David_Hineline]
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:13:03 PM EST
NO paperwork is required to purchase a complete upper for an ar15/m16..no matter if the barrel is 7" or 24"...an upper is just parts...nothing more.

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:19:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:

Why can't your friend just shop for himself?




Being couple countries away where high speed internet access is not available makes it difficult. Also, his english is not that good.

He comes every few years to visit friends and to do some shopping. Last time he took home 3 Dillon press, all kinds of reloading accessories, bunch of 1911 magazines and some Glock and 1911 parts. They also get stuff for the house like furniture and appliances so they just stuff everything into a 20' container and ship it out.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:21:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 7:22:53 PM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Depending upon your time frame needed I will be suprised if Model 1 does not backorder your item, it's only a couple wks away from Knob Creek and that's a cash and carry place, no one orders so if they don't have it they don't make any money, people like yourself are used to waiting on back orders so they sell thier units at Knob Creek and they get your money also because you will wait.

Why can't your friend just shop for himself?



Do you have an opinion on whether it is legal to have an SBR upper in the same house as a bunch of ARs - none of which are registererd SBR lowers?

I'm curious myself, because I'm waiting to get my Form 1 back from the ATF (so I wont have a lower reciever that's legal for SBR until I get the paperwork back, and get the lower engraved - but currently all the lowers are part of fully configured rifles). It would be nice to have the upper already when I get the form back - but obviously not important enough to risk committing a crime by accident.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:56:39 PM EST
Okay, How about Model 1 Sales product quality? Good, okay, not that good or POS?
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:04:17 PM EST
+1 one on his question and also maybe that vendor compared to CMMG site here in Industry forum as a comparison?

and...well I am a retard. What is SBR? (small black rifle?)

bump
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:05:46 PM EST
They are not chrome lined...if that makes any difference. If he wants you to order it from Model 1 why are you worried about quality? Just get him the upper.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:08:24 PM EST
... too close to the fire for my comfort level
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:06:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By glazer1972:

If he wants you to order it from Model 1 why are you worried about quality? Just get him the upper.




Because he IS my friend I watch out for him and try to do him right.
In case you didn't know, thats what friends do for each other.

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 9:30:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By yobo:

Originally Posted By glazer1972:

If he wants you to order it from Model 1 why are you worried about quality? Just get him the upper.




Because he IS my friend I watch out for him and try to do him right.
In case you didn't know, thats what friends do for each other.




You know quality is all subjective anyway. I know a guy who buys uppers from M-A similiar outfit and he swears by them. However if your friend had said I want the best then I would say Armalite, Bushmaster or Colt go chrome or go home. I think that if your friend is looking for a blaster the model 1 should work fine. However, the non chrome barrel will not last as long on a full auto. I don't think the model 1 or the m-a are the best but I don't think they are crap either.

Wait a minute I just checked and model1 offers a chrome lined 5.56 chamber 11 1/2" upper...interesting...I think it would be fine for the price. www.model1sales.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=UMC115CL&storeid=1&image=ucom11.gif
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:01:47 AM EST
glazer,

Thats the one I was looking at ordering.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:49:06 AM EST
Not illegal to order or posess (even if you have AR's). Just don't put it on your lower to show your friend how cool his will look
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 10:34:08 AM EST
I've had this model 1 sales upper for over a year now....functions flawlessly, finish is good, fit is tight. I highly reccomend them.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 11:28:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By codycoyote:

Originally Posted By 6731HBAR:
I may be wrong, but I don't think you can build your own pistol unless it ( the lower) is registerd as a pistol when you buy it. Some one correct me if I am wrong.



That is correct.



That is only partially correct. The lower must not have had a stock attched to it to be built into a pistol. Example: You buy a stripped lower and build it up yourself. The 4473 and your sales receipt not be for a pistol, but you can build it as one.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 11:51:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 11:53:22 AM EST by shaggy]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Depending upon your time frame needed I will be suprised if Model 1 does not backorder your item, it's only a couple wks away from Knob Creek and that's a cash and carry place, no one orders so if they don't have it they don't make any money, people like yourself are used to waiting on back orders so they sell thier units at Knob Creek and they get your money also because you will wait.

Why can't your friend just shop for himself?



Do you have an opinion on whether it is legal to have an SBR upper in the same house as a bunch of ARs - none of which are registererd SBR lowers?

I'm curious myself, because I'm waiting to get my Form 1 back from the ATF (so I wont have a lower reciever that's legal for SBR until I get the paperwork back, and get the lower engraved - but currently all the lowers are part of fully configured rifles). It would be nice to have the upper already when I get the form back - but obviously not important enough to risk committing a crime by accident.



Let me set y'all straight on the law, because I see a lot of confusion and bad info here.

If you have a short barreled upper (<16") in your possession AND you also have one or more AR15 rifles you may be playing with fire. If you don't also have (a)a registered MG, (b) a registered SBR, (c) a registered AOW, or (d) an AR pistol in addition to the short upper and any other AR15 type rifles, you are definitely playing with fire. Basically, if you just have an AR15 type rifle and a short upper, you can be in deep kimchee for possession of an unregistered SBR. You need to have a lower on which that short upper can be legally used to be safe.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:49:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By shaggy:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Depending upon your time frame needed I will be suprised if Model 1 does not backorder your item, it's only a couple wks away from Knob Creek and that's a cash and carry place, no one orders so if they don't have it they don't make any money, people like yourself are used to waiting on back orders so they sell thier units at Knob Creek and they get your money also because you will wait.

Why can't your friend just shop for himself?



Do you have an opinion on whether it is legal to have an SBR upper in the same house as a bunch of ARs - none of which are registererd SBR lowers?

I'm curious myself, because I'm waiting to get my Form 1 back from the ATF (so I wont have a lower reciever that's legal for SBR until I get the paperwork back, and get the lower engraved - but currently all the lowers are part of fully configured rifles). It would be nice to have the upper already when I get the form back - but obviously not important enough to risk committing a crime by accident.



Let me set y'all straight on the law, because I see a lot of confusion and bad info here.

If you have a short barreled upper (<16") in your possession AND you also have one or more AR15 rifles you may be playing with fire. If you don't also have (a)a registered MG, (b) a registered SBR, (c) a registered AOW, or (d) an AR pistol in addition to the short upper and any other AR15 type rifles, you are definitely playing with fire. Basically, if you just have an AR15 type rifle and a short upper, you can be in deep kimchee for possession of an unregistered SBR. You need to have a lower on which that short upper can be legally used to be safe.




There is a possibility that you could be charged with some sort of "intent to build" or some such BS. Now, as far as setting anyone straight on the law you haven't done it. There is no law resticting ownership of NFA components.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:52:58 PM EST
What? no one has touched the EXPORT aspect of this deal?????


Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:17:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 1:17:48 PM EST by shaggy]

Originally Posted By Jeep29:

Originally Posted By shaggy:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Depending upon your time frame needed I will be suprised if Model 1 does not backorder your item, it's only a couple wks away from Knob Creek and that's a cash and carry place, no one orders so if they don't have it they don't make any money, people like yourself are used to waiting on back orders so they sell thier units at Knob Creek and they get your money also because you will wait.

Why can't your friend just shop for himself?



Do you have an opinion on whether it is legal to have an SBR upper in the same house as a bunch of ARs - none of which are registererd SBR lowers?

I'm curious myself, because I'm waiting to get my Form 1 back from the ATF (so I wont have a lower reciever that's legal for SBR until I get the paperwork back, and get the lower engraved - but currently all the lowers are part of fully configured rifles). It would be nice to have the upper already when I get the form back - but obviously not important enough to risk committing a crime by accident.



Let me set y'all straight on the law, because I see a lot of confusion and bad info here.

If you have a short barreled upper (<16") in your possession AND you also have one or more AR15 rifles you may be playing with fire. If you don't also have (a)a registered MG, (b) a registered SBR, (c) a registered AOW, or (d) an AR pistol in addition to the short upper and any other AR15 type rifles, you are definitely playing with fire. Basically, if you just have an AR15 type rifle and a short upper, you can be in deep kimchee for possession of an unregistered SBR. You need to have a lower on which that short upper can be legally used to be safe.




There is a possibility that you could be charged with some sort of "intent to build" or some such BS. Now, as far as setting anyone straight on the law you haven't done it. There is no law resticting ownership of NFA components.



The law restricting ownership and possession of NFA components like short barrels and FCG's stems from the statutory definition of terms like "machinegun" and "short barreled rifle" as well as the implementing and interpretive regulations and case law (Thompson/Center v. US). Possession of a short upper in conjunction with an AR15 rifle and no other receiver on which it can be legally used is playing with fire. As far as I'm aware, there is no actual charge for "intent to build"; you would be simply charged with possession of an unregistered SBR.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:45:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
What? no one has touched the EXPORT aspect of this deal?????





Thats what I'm wondering...


If he lives south of the border what country is he living in(guns are illegal in Mexico)?

What about customs when the "Container" gets there.

Interesting, very Interseting...
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:52:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
What? no one has touched the EXPORT aspect of this deal?????





He lives further south down in Central America and he has a government permit to carry and own “small arms” (I think that is up to .50 caliber). Also, his family owns and operates a private security company that guards most of the banks and shopping malls in the country so they have a separate license that allows them to own weapons through that company.

I don’t think there is a restriction on exporting gun parts from US. I know a lot of people including my friend who routinely buys and take pistol parts like barrel, slide, magazine, etc. back home to Central and South America. Last year he shipped two AR bolts to his office by UPS. I believe he told me once that he can not ship bulletproof vest from here.

From what I have seen in past he takes receipts for all merchandise that goes into the container to the consulate office and has them “authorize/notarize” them. He gives all the documents to the forwarder who shipped the container down south. He purchased and shipped a car in a container few years ago and did the same thing. I guess when the container arrives at the destination he clears customs and pay taxes like we do here.

There is nothing illegal or nefarious about it. He just wants to buy some parts that he can not find or buy in his country. He can buy all the full auto M-16, AK, Uzi, Galil, etc. back home.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:58:12 PM EST
I ordered an 111/2 upper and 14 inch upper from Bushmaster two months ago. They would not ship until they got a copy of my Form 4. Must be some kind of a rule.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:22:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By yobo:

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
What? no one has touched the EXPORT aspect of this deal?????





He lives further south down in Central America and he has a government permit to carry and own “small arms” (I think that is up to .50 caliber). Also, his family owns and operates a private security company that guards most of the banks and shopping malls in the country so they have a separate license that allows them to own weapons through that company.

I don’t think there is a restriction on exporting gun parts from US. I know a lot of people including my friend who routinely buys and take pistol parts like barrel, slide, magazine, etc. back home to Central and South America. Last year he shipped two AR bolts to his office by UPS. I believe he told me once that he can not ship bulletproof vest from here.

From what I have seen in past he takes receipts for all merchandise that goes into the container to the consulate office and has them “authorize/notarize” them. He gives all the documents to the forwarder who shipped the container down south. He purchased and shipped a car in a container few years ago and did the same thing. I guess when the container arrives at the destination he clears customs and pay taxes like we do here.

There is nothing illegal or nefarious about it. He just wants to buy some parts that he can not find or buy in his country. He can buy all the full auto M-16, AK, Uzi, Galil, etc. back home.


I think you better check a little further, military firearms and parts are controlled "export" wise. Anything under $100 is usually good to go, but a whole upper could cause your friend (and you) some problems.
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