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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/4/2004 1:08:36 PM EST
www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/04/russia.putin/index.html

Putin: 'An attack on our country'
Russian leader admits weakness in face of terrorism



MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the hostage massacre in Beslan an attack on the entire country and made a surprising admission of weakness in the face of terrorism.

Speaking to his nation in a televised address Saturday, the Kremlin leader said the Soviet Union's collapse had left the country unable to react to attacks and warned: "Weak people are beaten."

Putin said the government must develop more effective ways of securing itself and improving its actions against terrorists.

"Here, it would have been more effective if we acted in time and more professionally," he said.

"We have to admit we did not pay much attention to the complexities and to the dangers of this process of what was going on in our own country and the world as a whole."

Hundreds of people were killed after terrorists seized a school building in the southern region of North Ossetia and held more than 1,000 students and adults hostage.

Earlier Saturday, Putin ordered the borders closed in North Ossetia as security forces searched for participants in the massacre.

In his 10-minute address, which followed an early morning visit to Beslan, Putin called the massacre "an attack on our country" and urged Russians to join together to fight terrorism.

"It is difficult to speak and it is bitter. On our territory a terrible tragedy has happened. Over these last few days each of us has been suffering deeply," Putin said.

He also said there must be improvements in security in the restive northern Caucasus region.

"We must create a much more effective system of security. We must demand that our security forces act at a level appropriate to the level and scope of the new threats."

Putin suggested that security forces which stormed the school seized by Chechen militants had to adopt new tactics to guard against large loss of life in future.

"It is vital to create an effective anti-crisis management system -- including fundamentally new approaches in the activity of the security forces," he said.

He said that since the fall of the Soviet Union, the nation was weakened and unable to respond effectively to terrorism.

"In any case, we couldn't adequately react. ... We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said.

He noted in particular that Russia's borders had become porous and "unprotected from either West or East," and that corruption had pervaded the law enforcement agencies.

His comments came amid criticism from people in Beslan over the handling of the crisis by security forces.

"There is no choice," Putin said. "Will we allow ourselves to be blackmailed and to abandon ourselves to panic? It is the mobilization of the nation against a common threat."

Putin praised the Beslan residents for their courage and morale, saying that in his trip to the region he saw people "who were literally drunk with grief and pain" but had the strength to support one another.

"In these inhuman conditions, they remained humans," Putin said.



Hmmmm, you think the Russians get it ?
Anyone think we would ever hear this from our leaders , especially skerry ?
Go get em Russia !!





Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:14:08 PM EST
His talk sounds good. We'll have to see what action he takes before we can judge whether or not he gets it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:16:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:20:18 PM EST
Hopefully, Putin will drop a big fucking hammer on the terrorist scumbags, and quickly...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:20:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
Not unlike our southern border where tens of thousands of people cross unchecked every day .... and none - zero - of them are terrorist so don't pay attention to what California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are shouting about.



I hope you're being sarcastic Paul.
GWB is to busy kissing Vincente Fox's ass and pandering to the aztlan vote to worry about what us lowly southwestern U.S. citizens are saying.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:22:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 1:22:48 PM EST by bulldog1967]
AS our leader once said, Mr. putin, "Let's Roll!"
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:42:45 PM EST

AP Newswire release, October 10, 2004:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has unveiled what pundits are calling an "October Surprise" by announcing that Russia will provide a battalion of mechanized infantry to aid the Coalition forces in the War on Terror, TAS reported today.

We can only hope he got it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 1:47:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 1:47:57 PM EST by Pangea]

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Not unlike our southern border where tens of thousands of people cross unchecked every day .... and none - zero - of them are terrorist so don't pay attention to what California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are shouting about.



I hope you're being sarcastic Paul.
GWB is to busy kissing Vincente Fox's ass and pandering to the aztlan vote to worry about what us lowly southwestern U.S. citizens are saying.



I hope that after november the lame duck president will do something about the borders.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:05:25 PM EST
The only thing that will keep them from screwing this up any worse is that they've allready done this so badly that it may not be possible.

At this point, Russia has 2 choices:

Either they concede defeat and let the Chechens go, or they fight an indefinate holding action like the British vs the Irish.

They are not going to win the war in Chechnya in the sense that we here win wars, they will either have to occupy by brite force for eternity or leave.

This is what happens when you fight a 'total war' against a civillian population in this day and age...

Fortunately, we are NOT repeating Russia's mistakes in Iraq....
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:10:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By KBaker:

AP Newswire release, October 10, 2004:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has unveiled what pundits are calling an "October Surprise" by announcing that Russia will provide a battalion of mechanized infantry to aid the Coalition forces in the War on Terror, TAS reported today.

We can only hope he got it.



Well, that would be a nice piece of crow for them to eat....

Somehow, I think that Putin wants to send said battalion to Afganhistan, not Iraq though...

Can you immagine what a batallion of Russians would do in Afganhistan?

For that matter, I can't immagine the Russians 'enjoying' the experiance either, it would be like telling a batallion of US Marines 'Congrats, you're being deployed to Da Nang, VIETNAM'...

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:11:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Not unlike our southern border where tens of thousands of people cross unchecked every day .... and none - zero - of them are terrorist so don't pay attention to what California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are shouting about.



I hope you're being sarcastic Paul.
GWB is to busy kissing Vincente Fox's ass and pandering to the aztlan vote to worry about what us lowly southwestern U.S. citizens are saying.



+1
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:39:33 PM EST
I can't help but wonder if we are seeing the birth of an American style politician.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:45:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Pangea:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Not unlike our southern border where tens of thousands of people cross unchecked every day .... and none - zero - of them are terrorist so don't pay attention to what California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are shouting about.



I hope you're being sarcastic Paul.
GWB is to busy kissing Vincente Fox's ass and pandering to the aztlan vote to worry about what us lowly southwestern U.S. citizens are saying.



I hope that after november the lame duck president will do something about the borders.



Neither of you are right...

There are over 8,000 miles of border out there... Over 2,000 with Mexico and over 6,000 with Canada.

Let's assume that to 'seal' the borders, it would require one outpost every mile or so, with 5 soldiers per outpost. That's 40,000 *combat* troops, right around TWICE the number in Afganhistan. Since there are about 5 'tails' for every 'tooth', add 5 REMFs to support each guard. so that's 30 troops * 8,000 = 240,000 soldiers.

The US has around 300,000-400,000 combat troops at present, excluding pilots & sailors. Our total military strength INCLUDING the 'tail' is between 1.2 and 1.5 million.

We are fighting a war on 2 major fronts and several minor ones...

So we're to commit 20% of our military to sit on the border & take potshots at tumbleweeds? And keep up a healthy rotation in and out of Iraq & Afganhistan? How do you propose we do that? And don't say 'draft', because a conscript army would be a waste for border guard duty -> graft & corruption would be rampant.

The fact is we CANNOT secure borders this expansive, no way no how. We CAN take action to make life hard for illegals by discouraging companies from hiring them with stiff fines & jail time for individuals... That is about IT....
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:47:21 PM EST
Hey Putin, we could use some extra security troops in Fallujah.



Have you figured it out yet, comrade?

Fight 'em "over there", or fight 'em in your own backyard.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:51:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only thing that will keep them from screwing this up any worse is that they've allready done this so badly that it may not be possible.

At this point, Russia has 2 choices:

Either they concede defeat and let the Chechens go, or they fight an indefinate holding action like the British vs the Irish.

They are not going to win the war in Chechnya in the sense that we here win wars, they will either have to occupy by brite force for eternity or leave.

This is what happens when you fight a 'total war' against a civillian population in this day and age...

Fortunately, we are NOT repeating Russia's mistakes in Iraq....



I guess the 10 Arabs found at the school were Chechen freedom fighters, huh?

This was nothing more than an attack by Muslim terrorists, period. All the other stuff is stuff window dressing for 'sensitive' souls.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:57:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Pangea:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Not unlike our southern border where tens of thousands of people cross unchecked every day .... and none - zero - of them are terrorist so don't pay attention to what California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are shouting about.



I hope you're being sarcastic Paul.
GWB is to busy kissing Vincente Fox's ass and pandering to the aztlan vote to worry about what us lowly southwestern U.S. citizens are saying.



I hope that after november the lame duck president will do something about the borders.



Neither of you are right...

There are over 8,000 miles of border out there... Over 2,000 with Mexico and over 6,000 with Canada.

Let's assume that to 'seal' the borders, it would require one outpost every mile or so, with 5 soldiers per outpost. That's 40,000 *combat* troops, right around TWICE the number in Afganhistan. Since there are about 5 'tails' for every 'tooth', add 5 REMFs to support each guard. so that's 30 troops * 8,000 = 240,000 soldiers.

The US has around 300,000-400,000 combat troops at present, excluding pilots & sailors. Our total military strength INCLUDING the 'tail' is between 1.2 and 1.5 million.

We are fighting a war on 2 major fronts and several minor ones...

So we're to commit 20% of our military to sit on the border & take potshots at tumbleweeds? And keep up a healthy rotation in and out of Iraq & Afganhistan? How do you propose we do that? And don't say 'draft', because a conscript army would be a waste for border guard duty -> graft & corruption would be rampant.

The fact is we CANNOT secure borders this expansive, no way no how. We CAN take action to make life hard for illegals by discouraging companies from hiring them with stiff fines & jail time for individuals... That is about IT....



The border with mexico is somewhat easier to defend than you think. Its desert with established trails that are used because the alternatives are to rough of terrain to use for transport.
We have the technology to use unmanned UAVs to keep watch on the areas 24/7 and when illegals are detected, dispatch border patrol, LEOs etc...
I'm down on or near the border a whole lot while camping, hunting, fishing or just driving around and I'm positive all it would take is a commitment to do it and use the technology to bridge the gaps in manpower. Hell, we already catch a whole lot of em using what we have now. Just imagine what using the military in some capacity would do.
Now Canada is a different story. Thick wooded terrain and miles of gaps. However, I think if we could count on Canada to enforce some imigration restrictions and get them to help with the borders we could do a hell of a lot better.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:00:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster:
Hey Putin, we could use some extra security troops in Fallujah.



Have you figured it out yet, comrade?

Fight 'em "over there", or fight 'em in your own backyard.



Iraq has no bearing on Putin's problems...

Even if there were no middle east, no muslims, all of this would still have happened.

It's about Russia vs Chechnya, not about some broader world war. The only connection is the metnods and the fact that AQ reinforces the Chechen rebel terrorists as a means of destabilizing Russia.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:07:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Putin: 'An attack on our country'
Russian leader admits weakness in face of terrorism



MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has called the hostage massacre in Beslan an attack on the entire country and made a surprising admission of weakness in the face of terrorism.

Speaking to his nation in a televised address Saturday, the Kremlin leader said the Soviet Union's collapse had left the country unable to react to attacks and warned: "Weak people are beaten."

Putin said the government must develop more effective ways of securing itself and improving its actions against terrorists.

"Here, it would have been more effective if we acted in time and more professionally," he said.

"We have to admit we did not pay much attention to the complexities and to the dangers of this process of what was going on in our own country and the world as a whole."

Hundreds of people were killed after terrorists seized a school building in the southern region of North Ossetia and held more than 1,000 students and adults hostage.

Earlier Saturday, Putin ordered the borders closed in North Ossetia as security forces searched for participants in the massacre.

In his 10-minute address, which followed an early morning visit to Beslan, Putin called the massacre "an attack on our country" and urged Russians to join together to fight terrorism.

"It is difficult to speak and it is bitter. On our territory a terrible tragedy has happened. Over these last few days each of us has been suffering deeply," Putin said.

He also said there must be improvements in security in the restive northern Caucasus region (mistranslation here).

"We must create a much more effective system of security. We must demand that our security forces act at a level appropriate to the level and scope of the new threats."

Putin suggested that security forces which stormed the school seized by Chechen militants had to adopt new tactics to guard against large loss of life in future.

"It is vital to create an effective anti-crisis management system -- including fundamentally new approaches in the activity of the security forces," he said.

He said that since the fall of the Soviet Union, the nation was weakened and unable to respond effectively to terrorism.

"In any case, we couldn't adequately react. ... We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said.

He noted in particular that Russia's borders had become porous and "unprotected from either West or East," and that corruption had pervaded the law enforcement agencies.

His comments came amid criticism from people in Beslan over the handling of the crisis by security forces.

"There is no choice," Putin said. "Will we allow ourselves to be blackmailed and to abandon ourselves to panic? It is the mobilization of the nation against a common threat."

Putin praised the Beslan residents for their courage and morale, saying that in his trip to the region he saw people "who were literally drunk with grief and pain" but had the strength to support one another.

"In these inhuman conditions, they remained humans," Putin said.



Hmmmm, you think the Russians get it ?
Anyone think we would ever hear this from our leaders , especially skerry ?
Go get em Russia !!








Interesting comments by Putin.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:20:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 3:22:20 PM EST by misterhemi]
Most likely Putin will take action. Within Russia he has a VERY GOOD reputation and is known as being a person who takes action. This is the reason for his popularity there. I was there a little while ago and many spoke of him very favorably and liked the fact that he took action rather than just talking about it.

For more history about Russia and Chechnya, go here

For more photos and news, see these two sites:
MosNews
and
LiveJournal


NOTE: On the second web site the characters may appear garbled if you don't have Cyrillic (KOI-8) fonts installed but you can still scroll down and see the photos.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:24:03 PM EST
He also added whats happening in the "World". I have a feeling there is going to be more mutual assistance with the fight on terror.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:04:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
He also added whats happening in the "World". I have a feeling there is going to be more mutual assistance with the fight on terror.



That would be nice!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:19:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:20:31 PM EST
hmmm maybe russia will give em some pre enriched uranium so when Iran starts up there plants they go critical....
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:31:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster:
Hey Putin, we could use some extra security troops in Fallujah.



Have you figured it out yet, comrade?

Fight 'em "over there", or fight 'em in your own backyard.



Iraq has no bearing on Putin's problems...

Even if there were no middle east, no muslims, all of this would still have happened.

It's about Russia vs Chechnya, not about some broader world war. The only connection is the metnods and the fact that AQ reinforces the Chechen rebel terrorists as a means of destabilizing Russia.





Mmmm kay. . .

Yeah, that's why Poles, Ukranians and Lithuanians are slaughtering Russian children too. Yeah.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:46:55 PM EST
Only one sure way to stop the muslim Chetchen attacks on Russia, and because it won't happen, Russia can only expect more such attacks.

Action talks
Bullshit walks.

Jay

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:54:39 PM EST
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack, so please hear me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys are cheerleading the worst bunch of thugs this side of Stalin and you keep patting each other on the back. I am starting to believe that Muslims are the new scapegoats, taking over for the Jews. We have no idea who pulled off that attack in Russia, all the news is speculation and propaganda. For all we know, it is the beginning of their civil war, which would be perfectly sensible, given the decrepit state of the kleptocracy there.

The Russians have spent ten years and countless monies, not to mention the lives of thousands of conscripts, prosecuting a war that they can never hope to win. They are beating their heads on the wall, and the head villain himself is admitting that they are losing. Sadly, they are a one-trick pony. All they know is force (the hallmark of all things state), but force is not going to work. Meanwhile, our own government has cheerfully looked the other way throughout.

Putin is a disgusting man--he had the person running against him in the most recent election disappeared. Is that democracy? And yet, US taxpayer money supports him. Hell, some of you would applaud if such a fate befell John Kerry. You just don't get it.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:57:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack



Wow, you're actually deluded enough to think that calling someone a "facist" isn't a personal attack. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, given the level of delusion you've shown so far.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:01:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack, so please hear me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys are cheerleading the worst bunch of thugs this side of Stalin and you keep patting each other on the back. I am starting to believe that Muslims are the new scapegoats, taking over for the Jews. We have no idea who pulled off that attack in Russia, all the news is speculation and propaganda. For all we know, it is the beginning of their civil war, which would be perfectly sensible, given the decrepit state of the kleptocracy there.

The Russians have spent ten years and countless monies, not to mention the lives of thousands of conscripts, prosecuting a war that they can never hope to win. They are beating their heads on the wall, and the head villain himself is admitting that they are losing. Sadly, they are a one-trick pony. All they know is force (the hallmark of all things state), but force is not going to work. Meanwhile, our own government has cheerfully looked the other way throughout.

Putin is a disgusting man--he had the person running against him in the most recent election disappeared. Is that democracy? And yet, US taxpayer money supports him. Hell, some of you would applaud if such a fate befell John Kerry. You just don't get it.




T to the R to the OLL...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:06:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack, so please hear me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys are cheerleading the worst bunch of thugs this side of Stalin and you keep patting each other on the back. I am starting to believe that Muslims are the new scapegoats, taking over for the Jews. We have no idea who pulled off that attack in Russia, all the news is speculation and propaganda. For all we know, it is the beginning of their civil war, which would be perfectly sensible, given the decrepit state of the kleptocracy there.

The Russians have spent ten years and countless monies, not to mention the lives of thousands of conscripts, prosecuting a war that they can never hope to win. They are beating their heads on the wall, and the head villain himself is admitting that they are losing. Sadly, they are a one-trick pony. All they know is force (the hallmark of all things state), but force is not going to work. Meanwhile, our own government has cheerfully looked the other way throughout.

Putin is a disgusting man--he had the person running against him in the most recent election disappeared. Is that democracy? And yet, US taxpayer money supports him. Hell, some of you would applaud if such a fate befell John Kerry. You just don't get it.





It's getting old bro. Nobody gives a fuck about your losertarian opinion. Muslims are the new scapegoats? Your credibility just dropped from relative zero to absolute zero. Piss off
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:07:49 PM EST
Chechnya is going to pay dearly for this.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:13:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack, so please hear me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys are cheerleading the worst bunch of thugs this side of Stalin and you keep patting each other on the back. I am starting to believe that Muslims are the new scapegoats, taking over for the Jews. We have no idea who pulled off that attack in Russia, all the news is speculation and propaganda. For all we know, it is the beginning of their civil war, which would be perfectly sensible, given the decrepit state of the kleptocracy there.

Other useless drivel snipped.



The enemy of my enemy is my friend, get it?

Idiot.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:17:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack, so please hear me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys are cheerleading the worst bunch of thugs this side of Stalin and you keep patting each other on the back. I am starting to believe that Muslims are the new scapegoats, taking over for the Jews. We have no idea who pulled off that attack in Russia, all the news is speculation and propaganda. For all we know, it is the beginning of their civil war, which would be perfectly sensible, given the decrepit state of the kleptocracy there.

The Russians have spent ten years and countless monies, not to mention the lives of thousands of conscripts, prosecuting a war that they can never hope to win. They are beating their heads on the wall, and the head villain himself is admitting that they are losing. Sadly, they are a one-trick pony. All they know is force (the hallmark of all things state), but force is not going to work. Meanwhile, our own government has cheerfully looked the other way throughout.

Putin is a disgusting man--he had the person running against him in the most recent election disappeared. Is that democracy? And yet, US taxpayer money supports him. Hell, some of you would applaud if such a fate befell John Kerry. You just don't get it.




You side with those who murder innocent women and children, and make any and every excuse to defend them. What's next? Will you deny the holocaust ever happened? Will you lie and claim that 9/11 was not done by your buddies, the muslim terrorists? You've given them so much aid and comfort that you're a terrorist yourself. How long until you start providing them with physical assistance in their attacks? Or have you already done so? How many babies have you murdered in the name of your hate-filled political philosophy?

You are NOT a libertarian and you insult every true libertarian every time you post. You are anti-American, an anti-semite, and a terrorist, and nothing more. You fool no one here, as they have all seen your kind before.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:22:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 9:46:05 PM EST by desertmoon]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Either they concede defeat and let the Chechens go, or they fight an indefinate holding action like the British vs the Irish.

They are not going to win the war in Chechnya in the sense that we here win wars, they will either have to occupy by brite force for eternity or leave.




You don't have to occupy or hold an area that has a zero population level. The key, and the ONLY, key to fighting Islamofascists is to ELIMINATE them all.
Though the rest of the world, Communist, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, socialist, Republican or Democrat, Hindu or Eskimo has slowly been learning to get along bit by bit ( exceptions noted, of course ) the Islamofascists desire to "convert" EVERYONE BAR NONE to their mode of thought at any cost. As we have been getting better they have been getting WORSE. Their religion ( and/or their religious leaders ) essentially dictates that until no infidel is left across the face of the globe there should be no peace. Hmm...well fuck them....I happen to like all kinds of people. I have friends of many different religions and political beliefs, colors, etc. and I like things that way. I love the variety. The towlie exists to destroy that variety that I enjoy...I think that I certainly can live without that one particular type of person in a world of so many.

Drop the bomb....do it for the children.....and I mean that.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:50:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 6:57:10 PM EST by Jeepster]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By KBaker:

AP Newswire release, October 10, 2004:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has unveiled what pundits are calling an "October Surprise" by announcing that Russia will provide a battalion of mechanized infantry to aid the Coalition forces in the War on Terror, TAS reported today.

We can only hope he got it.



Well, that would be a nice piece of crow for them to eat....

Somehow, I think that Putin wants to send said battalion to Afganhistan, not Iraq though...

Can you immagine what a batallion of Russians would do in Afganhistan?

For that matter, I can't immagine the Russians 'enjoying' the experiance either, it would be like telling a batallion of US Marines 'Congrats, you're being deployed to Da Nang, VIETNAM'...




I think the Afghans would be pretty pissed, same way the Kurds wouldn't let the Turks deploy troops to Kurdistan. Iraq would be a better bet.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:35:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:
You know, this website amazes me. Never before in my life, in any other place I have ever visited either in the real world or on the Internet, have I ever come across such a beautiful bunch of deluded fascists in my entire life. This is not a personal attack, so please hear me out. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys are cheerleading the worst bunch of thugs this side of Stalin and you keep patting each other on the back. I am starting to believe that Muslims are the new scapegoats, taking over for the Jews. We have no idea who pulled off that attack in Russia, all the news is speculation and propaganda. For all we know, it is the beginning of their civil war, which would be perfectly sensible, given the decrepit state of the kleptocracy there.

The Russians have spent ten years and countless monies, not to mention the lives of thousands of conscripts, prosecuting a war that they can never hope to win. They are beating their heads on the wall, and the head villain himself is admitting that they are losing. Sadly, they are a one-trick pony. All they know is force (the hallmark of all things state), but force is not going to work. Meanwhile, our own government has cheerfully looked the other way throughout.

Putin is a disgusting man--he had the person running against him in the most recent election disappeared. Is that democracy? And yet, US taxpayer money supports him. Hell, some of you would applaud if such a fate befell John Kerry. You just don't get it.




Well, fuck off you total piece of shit. Oh, this is not a personal attack, so don't hear me out, you scumbag.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:48:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Pangea:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Not unlike our southern border where tens of thousands of people cross unchecked every day .... and none - zero - of them are terrorist so don't pay attention to what California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are shouting about.



I hope you're being sarcastic Paul.
GWB is to busy kissing Vincente Fox's ass and pandering to the aztlan vote to worry about what us lowly southwestern U.S. citizens are saying.



I hope that after november the lame duck president will do something about the borders.



Neither of you are right...

There are over 8,000 miles of border out there... Over 2,000 with Mexico and over 6,000 with Canada.

Let's assume that to 'seal' the borders, it would require one outpost every mile or so, with 5 soldiers per outpost. That's 40,000 *combat* troops, right around TWICE the number in Afganhistan. Since there are about 5 'tails' for every 'tooth', add 5 REMFs to support each guard. so that's 30 troops * 8,000 = 240,000 soldiers.

The US has around 300,000-400,000 combat troops at present, excluding pilots & sailors. Our total military strength INCLUDING the 'tail' is between 1.2 and 1.5 million.

We are fighting a war on 2 major fronts and several minor ones...

So we're to commit 20% of our military to sit on the border & take potshots at tumbleweeds? And keep up a healthy rotation in and out of Iraq & Afganhistan? How do you propose we do that? And don't say 'draft', because a conscript army would be a waste for border guard duty -> graft & corruption would be rampant.

The fact is we CANNOT secure borders this expansive, no way no how. We CAN take action to make life hard for illegals by discouraging companies from hiring them with stiff fines & jail time for individuals... That is about IT....



Thats funny, since durring the US occupation of Germany we were able to control the inter German and Czech/Austrian borders with just 40,000 Constabulary....
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:50:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:


There are over 8,000 miles of border out there... Over 2,000 with Mexico and over 6,000 with Canada.

Let's assume that to 'seal' the borders, it would require one outpost every mile or so, with 5 soldiers per outpost. That's 40,000 *combat* troops, right around TWICE the number in Afganhistan. Since there are about 5 'tails' for every 'tooth', add 5 REMFs to support each guard. so that's 30 troops * 8,000 = 240,000 soldiers.

The US has around 300,000-400,000 combat troops at present, excluding pilots & sailors. Our total military strength INCLUDING the 'tail' is between 1.2 and 1.5 million.

We are fighting a war on 2 major fronts and several minor ones...

So we're to commit 20% of our military to sit on the border & take potshots at tumbleweeds? And keep up a healthy rotation in and out of Iraq & Afganhistan? How do you propose we do that? And don't say 'draft', because a conscript army would be a waste for border guard duty -> graft & corruption would be rampant.

The fact is we CANNOT secure borders this expansive, no way no how. We CAN take action to make life hard for illegals by discouraging companies from hiring them with stiff fines & jail time for individuals... That is about IT....



Dave, as for the southern Border, three simple letters D.M.Z. Mine the fucker. Put techonology into the defense of the borders.

As for Canada, Put up natural barriers, i e. we need to put up man made lakes and try and funnel the traffic to specific choke points. I don't know but something is got to be better than nothing.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:58:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By sterling18:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:


There are over 8,000 miles of border out there... Over 2,000 with Mexico and over 6,000 with Canada.

Let's assume that to 'seal' the borders, it would require one outpost every mile or so, with 5 soldiers per outpost. That's 40,000 *combat* troops, right around TWICE the number in Afganhistan. Since there are about 5 'tails' for every 'tooth', add 5 REMFs to support each guard. so that's 30 troops * 8,000 = 240,000 soldiers.

The US has around 300,000-400,000 combat troops at present, excluding pilots & sailors. Our total military strength INCLUDING the 'tail' is between 1.2 and 1.5 million.

We are fighting a war on 2 major fronts and several minor ones...

So we're to commit 20% of our military to sit on the border & take potshots at tumbleweeds? And keep up a healthy rotation in and out of Iraq & Afganhistan? How do you propose we do that? And don't say 'draft', because a conscript army would be a waste for border guard duty -> graft & corruption would be rampant.

The fact is we CANNOT secure borders this expansive, no way no how. We CAN take action to make life hard for illegals by discouraging companies from hiring them with stiff fines & jail time for individuals... That is about IT....



Dave, as for the southern Border, three simple letters D.M.Z. Mine the fucker. Put techonology into the defense of the borders.




No but it would be a way for the governmet to create jobs -- A bunch of jobs waiting for Americans -- protecting America. I like it -- Bush needs to impliment it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:58:05 AM EST
We cant use the military to secure the borders anyway, they cannot arrest people, we have to have a Border Guard like the Germans, Russians, and Israelis have. It would probably have to be the size of the USCG.

And a wall, like between Israel and the West Bank, with a anti-tank ditch, to force crossers to cross in ones and twos on foot, without vheicles or animal transport.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:04:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
We cant use the military to secure the borders anyway, they cannot arrest people, we have to have a Border Guard like the Germans, Russians, and Israelis have. It would probably have to be the size of the USCG.

And a wall, like between Israel and the West Bank, with a anti-tank ditch, to force crossers to cross in ones and twos on foot, without vheicles or animal transport.



The USBG.......I like it !
Now what are the odds that GWB can get it approved by Vincente Fox ?
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:54:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 7:56:09 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:11:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
We cant use the military to secure the borders anyway, they cannot arrest people, we have to have a Border Guard like the Germans, Russians, and Israelis have. It would probably have to be the size of the USCG.

And a wall, like between Israel and the West Bank, with a anti-tank ditch, to force crossers to cross in ones and twos on foot, without vheicles or animal transport.



The USBG.......I like it !
Now what are the odds that GWB can get it approved by Vincente Fox ?



No we are going to have to find someone who doesn't give a damn about Mexico. Get it into Congress first, then force it on the Pres.
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