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Posted: 10/27/2004 5:57:31 AM EST
I have a 4 month old border collie/boxer mix. She is super smart and very loyal to us. I am concerned about a couple of things though. She nips my little boy occassionaly. Also when she play bites, its pretty hard. Not hard enough to break skin, but hard enough to wonder. These things happen when she is playing, so she is not showing aggression. She will stop on MY command, but not his.

Is this normal puppy behavior? Its been a long time since I have had a puppy around so I can not remember.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:01:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:01:50 AM EST
Take it out back and shoot it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:02:12 AM EST
herding instinct is bred into border collies. it is instinctual for them to bite at the heels of animals they want to move. this can carry over into the house as well were they will try and herd your kids for you. Be stern but fair with her, and you can break her of this.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:02:14 AM EST
It's the border collie part of the dog trying to "herd" your kid. When they herd livestock they do the nip thing to get the animals to turn. Crack down on it immediatly, tell your kid to swat the dog and say NO!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:02:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:03:07 AM EST by rn45]
The next time the dog nips too hard, take a ballbat and beat her to a pulp. That will cure her.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:05:07 AM EST
next time it bites,just lean down and bite the dogs ear, hard enough to let him know it hurts. he just dont know yet and is playing . then slap his nose and tell him NO!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:05:35 AM EST
pooper, pics
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:06:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:11:10 AM EST by ZEN]
I just LOVE nipping and biting it, as well as licking.

And the women just love it, when I ............................. OPPS.


Ohhhhhhhhhh, ....... I see, ........ it's PUPPY nipping and biting.

(I gotta start reading these thread tittles a little better)


Zen


"This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine"
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:07:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:08:29 AM EST by A-nus]
When ever she dose it smack her on the snout and yell NO!- and tell her to go lay down in the corner 3-4 times she'll stop, you don't want to hurt the dog with the smack, but you want to "startel" her and let her know your not happy in an exsagerated way, be dramatic. she'll get the point.

DO not John Kerry (waffel) be consistant even on the slighest infraction don't give her an inch on the issue.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:07:43 AM EST
I'd be careful of swatting at the dog, a little tap on the nose if necessary but you certainly don't want it to become hand shy.

But yelling at the dog in a firm voice 'NO' or even have your son yell 'OW' might do the trick. My rott pups used to 'play' bite, but the moment I yelled 'ow' they would get the hint and back up.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:08:43 AM EST
And here I thought that he was going to ask about foreplay techniques...
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:09:14 AM EST
Stop it with the comedy you funny bastards . She dominates him and will not follow the "no bite" command when he gives it. I wonder if I need to get rid of her or if she will grow out this.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:12:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By dave223:
Stop it with the comedy you funny bastards . She dominates him and will not follow the "no bite" command when he gives it. I wonder if I need to get rid of her or if she will grow out this.



Being a border collie and probably very smart, she is probably trying to protect him. They are an exceptionaly intelligent breed. Hyper though.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:13:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By HKgnnr:
I'd be careful of swatting at the dog, a little tap on the nose if necessary but you certainly don't want it to become hand shy.

But yelling at the dog in a firm voice 'NO' or even have your son yell 'OW' might do the trick.


agreed. she'll grow out of it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:17:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:17:49 AM EST by dave223]

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

Originally Posted By HKgnnr:
I'd be careful of swatting at the dog, a little tap on the nose if necessary but you certainly don't want it to become hand shy.

But yelling at the dog in a firm voice 'NO' or even have your son yell 'OW' might do the trick.


agreed. she'll grow out of it.



I dont swat her ever. I dont have to. She is very smart (except for being TERRIFIED of fire hydrants..) and will do whatever I tell her. I read somewhere that border collies dont react well to swatting, so I have never raised my hand to her.
My son is not afraid of her and I am not concerned about mauling or anything so I will just keep an eye on this for now. Thanks for the tips.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:18:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:20:28 AM EST
Do you have a crate? If so, whenever the bad behavior is displayed and after the 'no bite' yell, and lead her into the crate for a minute or two. She appears to be doing what's instinctive to her regarding the hearding and at this point, I don't think she's being malicious.

Shes smart enough to realize that if she bites, she gets removed from the family to be placed in the crate for a time-out. After a couple minutes in the crate, have her come out, praise her. You still want her to associate the 'crate' as a good place to be - but also a place where she will go if shes displaying bad behavior.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:21:23 AM EST
border collies also typically "bond" to one person in a family. Everybody else are treated as pack members of lower rank.

you might want to consider taking a leason on "domenance training" from your local dog obediance school - it can make a huge difference on your puppies behavior.

It'll be much easier if you settle the 'pack order' now while the dog is still a puppy rather than allowing the puppy to decide on its own - much harder with an adult dog. Especially with dogs that operate on such a high level of instinct (like border's).

hope that helps.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:21:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By ZEN:
Ohhhhhhhhhh, ....... I see, ........ it's PUPPY nipping and biting.




heh good to see i wasn't the only one who thought he read PUSSY NIPPING AND BITING
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:23:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:25:10 AM EST by SigZiggy]
Normal.

Get it tons and tons of things that are OK for it to chew. When the puppy nips, stick a chewy in its mouth. Leave them laying everywhere so you can grab one quickly and insert upon nip.

ETA: My puppy won't listen to my kids either. The frequency of there voice is too high pitched. They may as well be saying "come and lick me and push me over puppy" instead of "sit boy"
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:25:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:

Originally Posted By ZEN:
Ohhhhhhhhhh, ....... I see, ........ it's PUPPY nipping and biting.




heh good to see i wasn't the only one who thought he read PUSSY NIPPING AND BITING



You guys have one track minds!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:30:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By HKgnnr:
I'd be careful of swatting at the dog, a little tap on the nose if necessary but you certainly don't want it to become hand shy.

But yelling at the dog in a firm voice 'NO' or even have your son yell 'OW' might do the trick. My rott pups used to 'play' bite, but the moment I yelled 'ow' they would get the hint and back up.



When you do swat your pup, do so but swatting up under the chin if you can. Dont raise your hands as this will lead to cowaring! I do the same thing with my horses, when they are young most have the need to nibble or bite to investigate things. If you pop thm under the chin it does not take long for them to learn. Again, never raise your hands!
CH
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:31:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By SigZiggy:
Normal.

Get it tons and tons of things that are OK for it to chew. When the puppy nips, stick a chewy in its mouth. Leave them laying everywhere so you can grab one quickly and insert upon nip.

ETA: My puppy won't listen to my kids either. The frequency of there voice is too high pitched. They may as well be saying "come and lick me and push me over puppy" instead of "sit boy"




LOL.... She will follow the older kids commands to sit, crate, down, shake, OUCH...etc... just fine. But my 4 yr old.....fuhgedaboutit. Maybe it is a pitch thing.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:33:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:34:56 AM EST by dave223]

Originally Posted By HKgnnr:
Do you have a crate? If so, whenever the bad behavior is displayed and after the 'no bite' yell, and lead her into the crate for a minute or two. She appears to be doing what's instinctive to her regarding the hearding and at this point, I don't think she's being malicious.

Shes smart enough to realize that if she bites, she gets removed from the family to be placed in the crate for a time-out. After a couple minutes in the crate, have her come out, praise her. You still want her to associate the 'crate' as a good place to be - but also a place where she will go if shes displaying bad behavior.



I send her outside(away from the family) for negative behavior. I try not to use the crate as a punishment. I am probably screwing that up too......LOL.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:36:39 AM EST
quit putting peanut butter on your junk
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:42:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigthicket:
next time it bites,just lean down and bite the dogs ear, hard enough to let him know it hurts. he just dont know yet and is playing . then slap his nose and tell him NO!



always did that with all my pups and they were never a problem. It helps establish a dominance thing, that they respect.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:47:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dagger:

Originally Posted By bigthicket:
next time it bites,just lean down and bite the dogs ear, hard enough to let him know it hurts. he just dont know yet and is playing . then slap his nose and tell him NO!



always did that with all my pups and they were never a problem. It helps establish a dominance thing, that they respect.



Ok, Im going to try this just to see the look on her face afterwards.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:21:21 AM EST
+1 - The reason the pup bites the kid is that it sees it as either another pup to play with and practice with, or it sees it as livestock to herd. Move kid up in the chain of command and the biting will probably stop. Hard with little kids, so make sure you instruct well on where the line between instructing and abusing the pup.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:30:55 AM EST
I'd work in getting the dog to respond to commands from the 4yo. It needs to learn that it's lower in rank. If it won't listen to Sit and Stay, I doubt it would listen to No Bite.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:33:50 AM EST
My dog bit me, when it was a puppy.
I bit him back.
seriously.
You should have seen the look on his face.
He yelped.

Now he my put his mouth on you, but he doesn't bite.

BTW, when something hurts, yell OUCH!!.
My dog seems to understand that, and he looks like he feels dejected.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:52:09 AM EST
When the dog bites you, you need to yelp out in pain. The dog is playing and does not want to hurt you, but does not know it is hurting you unless you show pain. When the puppy understands that it hurts when it bites it will stop. Also avoid playing games with you hands. Hand play sends mixed messages when you dont want it to bite you. This also works with kittens.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:07:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:48:13 AM EST
shoot a hole in its tail
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:42:18 AM EST
All puppies do that. If you want to establish yourself as Alpha, hold his mouth shut with one hand and force him to the ground. Hold him down until he quits squirming. That means he is being submissive to you. That is what his mom would do to him. He will grow out of a lot of the nipping though.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:23:13 PM EST
Sending a dog to their crate as a punishment is bad mojo. You want the dog to treat their crate a a GOOD place. The fact that you only 'send them there for a minute or two' is just as bad as leaving them there for hours.

If you correct a dog, and he listens, then there is no reason to put the dog in a crate obviously. If you correct the dog and they do the same thing and you are fed up, then you can put them in their crate, but no scolding should be associated with you putting them there in that instance.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:27:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 12:32:06 PM EST by COZ_45]

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

Originally Posted By HKgnnr:
I'd be careful of swatting at the dog, a little tap on the nose if necessary but you certainly don't want it to become hand shy.

But yelling at the dog in a firm voice 'NO' or even have your son yell 'OW' might do the trick.


agreed. she'll grow out of it.



I have Jack Russells....THREE OF THEM, and I agree

They all went through this, one is going through it now. "Ow" and "No" and a tap on the nose teach them, but until there about 3 months old the training is ignored when they are excited and playing.

Interestingly enough, our youngest JRT growls and snaps any time you're doing something that she doesn't like. She weighs 5 lbs. so it makes you laugh at her ferociousness, which doesn't help in the training.

Edited to add; and this will start a flame war: "NEVER leave a dog and small child alone together! Never! No matter how many times they've been together with nothing happening, a dog is still a pack animal with alpha vs everyone else instincts...it's just not fair to the dog or the kid."
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:37:45 PM EST
Roll up some newspaper and swat the dog. It won't hurt them, but lets them know they are screwing up. Use a firm voice saying NO! when you do it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 1:14:46 PM EST
If you can catch your pup attempting to nip, squirt a little lemon juice in its mouth. The taste will make the dog back off. I adopted my lab mix when he was 15 months old. Two or three days of lemon shooters stopped the nipping cold. Just be careful not to spray it in the dogs face/eyes. You have to do this while the dog is doing the undesirable behavior too - in the act.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:16:12 PM EST
My English Springer Spaniel was a real "chewer" when just a puppy. Everyone had little bite marks and scratches from his teeth. Luckily we decided to hire a real pro to come over and work with him AND my 6-year-old son together. We mentioned the biting and the trainer said, "Pay attention...I don't usually encourage a dog to bite, but..." He then called the 3-month-old puppy over and encouraged him to play. The Springer promptly gave his wrist a typical puppy-type bite and IMMEDIATELY ;
The trainer reached over with his other hand over the top of the dog's snout and pushed the dogs own lip up against the points of his teeth with just enough pressure that the dog gave a small yelp, and sat on the floor at the trainers feet. He called him up and the same thing happened again...the dog sat down and gave the trainer his complete attention. The third time the trainer called him to play it was nothing but licking. NO biting. Remember, this was a teething puppy. 90% of the biting was "cured" with that single session. He warned us to do exactly what he did...fast...whenever the dog bit. We did, and I would estimate that it took no more than 2 or 3 "treatments" from me, my son, or my wife, over the course of a few days, and the puppy simply didn't bite again. No harsh words, no hair in your mouth, no hitting, and instant results. Try it. BTW...the same dog, who literally lets birds eat scraps from his dish, damn near took the arm off a purse-snatcher last year. eMail me if you want a cure for the dog "tugging" anyone that's trying to walk him. Stay safe
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:33:10 PM EST
My dogs know the word "ow" if they play-bite too hard. They will usually look sad and start licking the "wound" and then look up to me as if to say "I sawwy. Is it better now?" and then start playing again, most likely with a rope toy or something.

With the beagle, its less "herding" than it is just "gumming" and showing affection.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 5:00:57 AM EST
What I have done has been covered above but not in one post.

"OUCH" very loud when bit.

Firm "NO".

Grab top jaw with your hand and squeeze firmly until dog becomes uncomfortable. Maintain the pressure and take dog down to the ground. You may feel discomfort yourself due to those puppy teeth but hang in there.

Repeat as necessary.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 5:44:46 AM EST
Do not allow it. Stop playing with the dog, softly hold the mouth shut and say "no".

All puppies will test the pack for authority. Play biting is the fist step to establishing dominance. Never let a puppy put his teath on you, ever. People that say it is "cute" do not know what this will lead to. You must stop the behavior every time it occurs, or you will have a difficult time with training and biting problems as an adult.

The alpha never allows another dog to put his teath on them. Allow it, and you are NOT the alpha.

Also train the puppy to come on command with a treat at this age, 10 times a day. After one year it is nearly impossible to teach this behavior.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 7:03:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 7:06:33 AM EST by USMC_LB]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By bigthicket:
next time it bites,just lean down and bite the dogs ear, hard enough to let him know it hurts. he just dont know yet and is playing . then slap his nose and tell him NO!



thank you, this is the CORRECT answer... it is what the mother would do to her pups.



*** ADDED: What others above are saying about shouting, OWW!!!! is very true. Your dog never wants to intentionally hurt you. If you let it know VERY LOUDLY then it will refrain from whatever it did to hurt you.****



Doing what dogs do to one another is NOT a good idea....

C.W. Meisterfeld tells a story in one of his books about how he likes to go to other "dog training seminars" put on by "experts". On one occasion he was attending one of these events where in the advertisement the "expert" had asked participants to bring there "untrained" canines to the seminar so he could interact with them on stage.

The "expert" had went through several "training methods" and finally was explaining how dogs respond to the ALPHA male/female just like wolves do and ALL DOGS do come from wolves so this is how you train your canines.

He asked for a volunteer and a lady on the front row had a full-grown Akita. The "expert" explained that he was going to show this canine that he, the "expert", WAS the ALPHA dog and that the canine will be shown how to be submissive.

The "expert" took hold of the Akita on both sides of the Akita's scruff and flipped the canine on its back, straddled it and began to growl and speak VERY LOUDLY to the Akita.

The paramedics took the man out of the convention center on a gurney and he later received 42 stitches on his forehead and face.

The Akita didnt know he was supposed to be submissive.... in his world HE WAS DOMINATE...

NOW some of you would say that the Akita was just not taought to be submissive when he was young !

When you teach a dog that it is "submissive" all you are reinforcing to that dog is that it is not dominate at that time.

When a younger adult wolf starts to feel "dominate" in the pack what does he do ?? He tries to via for power against the ALPHA Male. If the ALPHA male IS stronger he will FORCE the younger to be submissive or risk being gravely injured which can lead to death. ( Wolves rarely kill each other in these contests ).

Now once the younger wolf has been forced in "submission" will he remain submissive for the rest of his life ??? NO

Once he becomes bigger and stronger he will constantly ( sometimes incrementally ) test the ALPHA male and its dominance.

The first time the younger sees any sign of weakness in the ALPHA he will take advantage of it and if the ALPHA is still strong enuogh he will remain the ALPHA. If he is not, the younger will become the ALPHA male.

If you force your dog into submision you are only reinforcing a attack ( a snip or a real BITE ) later
in your relationship with your pet, which usually results in the children being bit because YOU started the SOCIAL PECKING ORDER and the canine is just trying to do the same to others it finds smaller or slower than itself....


Please go find this book by C.W. Meisterfeld

JELLY BEAN vs. DR. JEKYLL & MR. HYDE

Years ago I received a puppy that was going to later grow into a rather large dog ( 115-125 lbs. )

I knew I wanted to be able to "control" him once he got larger so I started reading everything I could get my hands on at the public library.

Everytime I would go browse for 4 -5 more dog training books I would run across Meisterfelds book. After reading the back cover and seeing the term "canine psychoanalyst / therapist" I rolled my eyes and placed the book back on the shelf for some tree-hugger to waste their time with.

AFTER I read every damn book in the library ( seriously ) I was still thinking that I was lacking. There were SO MANY DIFFERING METHODS ! that I could not figure out which one was for me.

I finally broke down and checked out the book from the library to get a few chuckles......

After reading it all I could say was WOW !!

This book does not teach you specifically what to do but it is a EXCELLENT guide for WHAT NOT TO DO !

Many well-known methods of dog training are debunked with good explanation.

Please take the time to read this book and it will save you alot of time in negative training.


LB
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 7:15:57 AM EST

The puppy is confused as to the hierarchy in the family.

To properly orient the puppy as to its place in the pecking order, it must be shown it's proper place.

The boy must mount the puppy.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 7:32:42 AM EST
I am in the same boat as you, new golden puppy and a two year old boy. They are going at it all the time, the dog will follow him around and jump and nip at him.

On a side note, I am glad that I have experience with fixing drywall.
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