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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/22/2004 1:18:47 PM EST
OK, let me see if I have this straight - and someone please educate me if I am wrong:

ASA Upper - comes with drop-in (from the top) magwell and can take UNMODIFIED Sten mags - these can get up to 32 rounds, but are a bear to load without a loading tool. How reliable is this setup?

Colt - uses a colt drop-in magwell and can take just Colt 9mm mags, or can it also take unmodified UZI mags as well? I know how reliable UZI mags are :)

Oly Arms - no magwell, but you have to use modified UZI mags.

Anything I'm missing?

Can the Colt magwell be used with other 9mm uppers? If I got an ASA that came with a Colt magwell, would there be any reason to keep the Colt magwell if I could sell it to someone?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:27:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:30:24 PM EST
erm Campy, he was asking about 9mm uppers, not 7.62x39 uppers.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:31:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:34:26 PM EST
Campy must have been drinking - either that or he has done got senile
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:37:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 1:43:34 PM EST by 3-7INFANTRY]
Oly has a new system that takes Glock mags. It only comes in 40 and 9mm.
The reciever was built around the glock mags. Which is a good idea since glock mag prices should start dropping. And glock makes 33 rounder 9 mags and 29 rounder 40 mags
It also has the last shot bolt hold open feature.

Colt mags in the colt or RRA system work. Colt mags will hold the bolt on the last shot, uzi mags will not.
If you get uzi mags make sure they are IMI 32 rounders

Yes the colt magwell can be used with other lowers. Shoot me an IM if you want to get rid of it.

Or check out the pistol caliber section. Losts of good info there.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:48:57 PM EST
3-7 : So, if I got an ASA upper with the ASA magwell, would that work pretty good for me? Using Sten mags? I've already got a bunch of them. Would that be a good choice? It's not like I'm ever going to go Full Auto with it.

I've also thought of maybe in the future doing something with some Suomi 71 round drums I have - that would be pretty sweet, though expensive.

The deal I'm trying to work is a for a very nice ASA upper with a bunch of extras, but I just want to make sure that the ASA is a good upper and reliable. It comes with a Colt block and a colt mag, but if I don't need them I will sell them.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:51:12 PM EST
Also, do you need 9mm FCG or will the .223 FCG work with a 9mm upper?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:53:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By peekay:
Also, do you need 9mm FCG or will the .223 FCG work with a 9mm upper?



With the Oly system, you can use a standard FCG. With the Colt system, I believe you need a new hammer - but the new hammer will work on a 5.56 upper.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:55:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 1:55:56 PM EST by gamesniper]
Someone 'splain this to me:


9MM is weak, wimpy and not to be trusted for personal defense in a handgun, but it's perfectly OK as long as it's being shot from a MP5 or a converted AR.

WTF?

ETA: Uh...might want to stay away from ASA.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:58:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By gamesniper:
Someone 'splain this to me:


9MM is weak, wimpy and not to be trusted for personal defense in a handgun, but it's perfectly OK as long as it's being shot from a MP5 or a converted AR.

WTF?




you can suppress a 9mm subgun easily, and it's more accurate than a pistol
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:59:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 2:00:06 PM EST by Greywolf2112]
Why should I stay away from ASA?

Also, I just like the idea of being able to use various calibers in my AR. And I can suppress it with my 9mm can.

QS beat me to it :)
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:03:20 PM EST
You can get a $50 SOCOM mag block for the Oly system that lets you use unmodified $3 Sten mags. Mine runs great.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:07:49 PM EST
I guess I still need confirmation on the mags that the ASA will accept - do they take UNMODIFIED Sten mags?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:10:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By DavidC:
You can get a $50 SOCOM mag block for the Oly system that lets you use unmodified $3 Sten mags. Mine runs great.



I have never handled a sten mag, are they heavy duty enough to handle rough treatment?

Also I saw a socom type block that set even with the magwell and all that stuck out was the release.

Anyone know who made these?

Sorry for the hijack greywolf
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:10:59 PM EST
Rock river arms breathed new life into the colt system. I have one that I have not taken to the range yet, but I can see that RRA quality.

I took the lower with 9mm hammer, H-buffer, and a VLTOR and snapped a 5.56 carbine upper on it and went to work with a couple of heavy cyclings. One mag dump, the other slow fire ect. No problems with the 9mm lower.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:11:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
I guess I still need confirmation on the mags that the ASA will accept - do they take UNMODIFIED Sten mags?



NO!

They take modified UZI mags.

IM inbound....
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:20:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 2:21:48 PM EST by ZEN]

Originally Posted By gamesniper:
Someone 'splain this to me:


9MM is weak, wimpy and not to be trusted for personal defense in a handgun, but it's perfectly OK as long as it's being shot from a MP5 or a converted AR.

WTF?


ETA: Uh...might want to stay away from ASA.




The 9mm coming out of a 16 inch rifle barrel is a whole different animal than what comes out of a 4 inch pistol barrel. The longer barrel allows for a longer burn and therefore more presure speed and power.

I remember an article in swat mag about penitration I once read. 9mm out of a pistol would not penitrate a cars all that well, but 9mm coming out of an Uzi zipped right through.

And of course you have a thirty round mag with an Uzi type weapon so you can wack each target with multiple rounds that hit virturally all at once when fired out of an smg. (almost the same with a semi if used properly) This gives much more knock down power than a couple of rounds from a pistol. That is what makes an smg so deadly and a such a good pdw.

Different animal.



Zen



"This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine"

Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:22:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 2:23:44 PM EST by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
I guess I still need confirmation on the mags that the ASA will accept - do they take UNMODIFIED Sten mags?



NO!

They take modified UZI mags.

IM inbound....



+1

NO the ASA uses colt style mags which means you can use Uzi or Feather AT9 mags after you cut a mag catch notch.

While uzi mags are not as cheap as sten mags, they seem to be a better all around mag IMHO.

CH
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:25:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 2:26:33 PM EST by 3-7INFANTRY]

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
3-7 : So, if I got an ASA upper with the ASA magwell, would that work pretty good for me? Using Sten mags? I've already got a bunch of them. Would that be a good choice? It's not like I'm ever going to go Full Auto with it.

I've also thought of maybe in the future doing something with some Suomi 71 round drums I have - that would be pretty sweet, though expensive.

The deal I'm trying to work is a for a very nice ASA upper with a bunch of extras, but I just want to make sure that the ASA is a good upper and reliable. It comes with a Colt block and a colt mag, but if I don't need them I will sell them.



Yes you can set it up to take the sten mags. Sten mags work great. Make sure you get a loader. They will kill your fingers. Sumo drums can be made to work but I have never tried nor seen one in operation.

Sounds like you are on the right path. I have a whole box load of sten mags. Around 20 I would guess. You want to do some trading?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:25:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By DavidC:
You can get a $50 SOCOM mag block for the Oly system that lets you use unmodified $3 Sten mags. Mine runs great.



I have never handled a sten mag, are they heavy duty enough to handle rough treatment?

Also I saw a socom type block that set even with the magwell and all that stuck out was the release.

Anyone know who made these?

Sorry for the hijack greywolf



Sten mags are overbuilt, to put it simply.

However, they are NOT made of uber-tough metal. I've never heard of anyone wearing-out a sten mag, but if you DO need to bend a feed lip, etc, it's not too hard.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:27:16 PM EST
Anybody see the funny part of this thread?

2 guys trying to sell 9mm uppers (and 1 selling mags) trying to give advice to 2 guys wanting to BUY 9mm uppers.....


(and yes, I'm one of the salesmen).

Only on arfcom......

Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:31:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Anybody see the funny part of this thread?

2 guys trying to sell 9mm uppers (and 1 selling mags) trying to give advice to 2 guys wanting to BUY 9mm uppers.....


(and yes, I'm one of the salesmen).

Only on arfcom......




I like yours arowner, if it just didn't have that ss barrel I would grab it.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:33:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Anybody see the funny part of this thread?

2 guys trying to sell 9mm uppers (and 1 selling mags) trying to give advice to 2 guys wanting to BUY 9mm uppers.....


(and yes, I'm one of the salesmen).

Only on arfcom......





Greywolf should get both uppers.


a standard Arfcom answer
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:36:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Anybody see the funny part of this thread?

2 guys trying to sell 9mm uppers (and 1 selling mags) trying to give advice to 2 guys wanting to BUY 9mm uppers.....


(and yes, I'm one of the salesmen).

Only on arfcom......




I like yours arowner, if it just didn't have that ss barrel I would grab it.



I'll spray-paint it at no extra charge. What color d'ya want?

Alternately, you could use a can of that bake-on stuff from brownell's. I bet it would stick well to the matte finish.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:40:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Anybody see the funny part of this thread?

2 guys trying to sell 9mm uppers (and 1 selling mags) trying to give advice to 2 guys wanting to BUY 9mm uppers.....


(and yes, I'm one of the salesmen).

Only on arfcom......




I like yours arowner, if it just didn't have that ss barrel I would grab it.



I'll spray-paint it at no extra charge. What color d'ya want?

Alternately, you could use a can of that bake-on stuff from brownell's. I bet it would stick well to the matte finish.



dr.evil)Its just not evil enough, its only quasi evil (dr.evil

What kinda deal are you offering?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:41:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By ZEN:


The 9mm coming out of a 16 inch rifle barrel is a whole different animal than what comes out of a 4 inch pistol barrel. The longer barrel allows for a longer burn and therefore more presure speed and power.

I remember an article in swat mag about penitration I once read. 9mm out of a pistol would not penitrate a cars all that well, but 9mm coming out of an Uzi zipped right through.



The data I've seen from ballitic gelatin tests shows much greater penetration with the carbine, but the final bullet diameter for JHPs is about 0.36" (as opposed to 0.60" for 9mm fired from a handgun).

So you are probably correct about penetration of cover, but on an exposed person the carbine is actually worse. Maybe a larger data set, of special ammo, will provide different results.


Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:50:47 PM EST
If I remember correctly,
An article in GWLE says for 12" barrel, the 9mm is far superior in momentum and energy compared to 5.56mm.



also - The UZI magazines work fine, except they will not hold the bolt open when empty. Fromj what I have seen, the COLTS are the most reliable 9mm. They have the formula I guess...
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:17:01 PM EST
I'll add another though in the plus collumn for Olympic 9mm conversions that nobody has probably thought of yet:

The Oly conversions generally take those Sten Frankenmags. However, the 9mm FX (Simunitions) conversions take a proprietary 20 (and now 30) round magzine desinged to mimic the characteristics of an M16 magazine externally and hold 9mm rounds. The 9mm FX uppers for M16/M4 weapons are basically Oly uppers. The magzines are generally clear plastic, though there are some older examples that were a dark "smoked" plastic (I have some in the Armory). The FX magazines run about $30 new, but work pretty well. The older ones used some funky leaf spring for feeding, but the new ones use a more conventional (and replacable) spring system. Simunitions avoided the whole magazine ban issue by declaring that these were only for 9mmFX rounds, and only selling them to LE agencies, though they were never LEO marked.

Olympic had, at least at one point in time, pictures demonstrating their 9mm systems with sims magazines, although they noted that those magazines were not available to the public. WIth the ban gone, I wonder why one couldn't oreder the plastic sims magazines from Olympic, or from Simunitions, through a US distributor, and use those with Olympic 9mm uppers.

Here is a sims upper and a couple of the newer magazines:




Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:20:00 PM EST
With the ban dead, I wouldn't be surprised if someone made a mag similar to the one natez describes, but for the general public. As I understand it, they make the last-round bolt hold-open feature work, too.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:21:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By natez:
I'll add another though in the plus collumn for Olympic 9mm conversions that nobody has probably thought of yet:

The Oly conversions generally take those Sten Frankenmags. However, the 9mm FX (Simunitions) conversions take a proprietary 20 (and now 30) round magzine desinged to mimic the characteristics of an M16 magazine externally and hold 9mm rounds. The 9mm FX uppers for M16/M4 weapons are basically Oly uppers. The magzines are generally clear plastic, though there are some older examples that were a dark "smoked" plastic (I have some in the Armory). The FX magazines run about $30 new, but work pretty well. The older ones used some funky leaf spring for feeding, but the new ones use a more conventional (and replacable) spring system. Simunitions avoided the whole magazine ban issue by declaring that these were only for 9mmFX rounds, and only selling them to LE agencies, though they were never LEO marked.

Olympic had, at least at one point in time, pictures demonstrating their 9mm systems with sims magazines, although they noted that those magazines were not available to the public. WIth the ban gone, I wonder why one couldn't oreder the plastic sims magazines from Olympic, or from Simunitions, through a US distributor, and use those with Olympic 9mm uppers.

Here is a sims upper and a couple of the newer magazines:

www.simunition.com/images/products/convertion_kit/rifles-big/colt-m4a1-rifle.jp





That's a great idea. With a Colt you can remove the mag blocks and use a regular AR-15 mag. Three pins that's it.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:37:10 PM EST
OK, I'm confused - just what mags DOES the ASA take? Some say Sten, some say UZI. If they have to be modified, what modifications must be made?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:04:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
OK, I'm confused - just what mags DOES the ASA take? Some say Sten, some say UZI. If they have to be modified, what modifications must be made?



You have to mill a new slot for the mag catch, which differs from an UZI catch.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:09:15 PM EST
Gotcha - whew, you'd think Google and the all-mighty internet would answer these fucking questions

Sigh . . . . . decisions, decisions, decisions.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:28:28 PM EST
I had to have a Colt 9mm carbine. Got one and 6 extra 32 rd mags. The mags are tough to load to full capacity. The loading tool was not available at the time. Shooting it to me was like going from shooting a 45 to a 22. The pistol carbine just does not cut it. Give me the .223 or .308 in the same size package anyday.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:40:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
If I remember correctly,
An article in GWLE says for 12" barrel, the 9mm is far superior in momentum and energy compared to 5.56mm.
.



Momentum, perhaps. Energy, I doubt it.

Lets assume a MV of 1,600 fps with a 147 gr bullet for the 9 (I doubt it, but let's give it the benifit of the doubt), and for the .223 a 55 gr bullet at 3,000 fps. The ratio would be:

147*1,600/55*3000 = 1.4

for momentum and:

55*3,000*3,000/147*1,600*1,600 = 1.3

for energy.

So the 9 has 1.4 times as much momentum as the .223, but the .223 has 1.3 times as much energy as the 9.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:45:11 PM EST
I'm Form 1ing an SBR 9 carbine. That should make a difference.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:51:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 5:52:46 PM EST by Cape_hunter]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Anybody see the funny part of this thread?

2 guys trying to sell 9mm uppers (and 1 selling mags) trying to give advice to 2 guys wanting to BUY 9mm uppers.....


(and yes, I'm one of the salesmen).

Only on arfcom......




You are correct, ony here!

[throws cards to dealer] I'm out![/throws cards to dealer]
CH
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:51:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By ZEN:


The 9mm coming out of a 16 inch rifle barrel is a whole different animal than what comes out of a 4 inch pistol barrel. The longer barrel allows for a longer burn and therefore more presure speed and power.

I remember an article in swat mag about penitration I once read. 9mm out of a pistol would not penitrate a cars all that well, but 9mm coming out of an Uzi zipped right through.



The data I've seen from ballitic gelatin tests shows much greater penetration with the carbine, but the final bullet diameter for JHPs is about 0.36" (as opposed to 0.60" for 9mm fired from a handgun).

So you are probably correct about penetration of cover, but on an exposed person the carbine is actually worse. Maybe a larger data set, of special ammo, will provide different results.






DonS,

You've got a good point there. If the round doesn't expend it's energy in the person, they it isn't as effective. That is why a slower moving bullit like the 45 works as well as it does. Slow moving so it expands in the target. (having more mass doesn't hurt either)

Good point.



Zen

"This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine"
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 7:00:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 7:12:40 PM EST by mikejohnson]
are those the velocities from a 12" barrel or some numbers your got from some generic source?
find the numbers for a 12" barrel and post your reults...I will find the article and post it
also - momentum is most important when figuring impact and collisions


Originally Posted By DonS:

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
If I remember correctly,
An article in GWLE says for 12" barrel, the 9mm is far superior in momentum and energy compared to 5.56mm.
.



Momentum, perhaps. Energy, I doubt it.

Lets assume a MV of 1,600 fps with a 147 gr bullet for the 9 (I doubt it, but let's give it the benifit of the doubt), and for the .223 a 55 gr bullet at 3,000 fps. The ratio would be:

147*1,600/55*3000 = 1.4

for momentum and:

55*3,000*3,000/147*1,600*1,600 = 1.3

for energy.

So the 9 has 1.4 times as much momentum as the .223, but the .223 has 1.3 times as much energy as the 9.

Link Posted: 9/22/2004 8:53:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 8:56:12 PM EST by az-gunner]
ASA drop in mag block = modified uzi mags (and standard colt I think)

Colt 1 or 2 piece mag block = Colt mags and modified uzi mags

RRA mag block = Colt mags and modified uzi mags

VM HyTech mag block = unmodified uzi mags in Colt/RRA/ASA uppers (check W Ameetech 4 others)

socom mag block = un modified sten mags, but only on Olympic uppers

Olympic uppers can also use modified sten mags without a mag block (built into mag)

Confusing enough for you?

Clear as mud right?

.
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:06:14 AM EST
Actually, AZGunner, that was very clear - thank you!
Link Posted: 9/23/2004 2:19:54 AM EST
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