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Posted: 6/2/2010 7:36:13 AM EDT
Just when we thought the sport was cleaning up it's act.  Tin foil?  http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4387/Cancellara-denies-bike-motor-story-others-debate-the-issue.aspx

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 7:50:07 AM EDT
Anytime someone says "no chance...I can guarantee you 200% that it's not true"... they are lying.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:17:56 AM EDT
I guess the chances of getting caught blood doping call for new ways to cheat.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:29:06 AM EDT
Alright, so I do have to admit that that kind of acceleration with no apparent change in effort looks... suspicious.

Now, where can I buy this motor before my friends find out? My racing days are over, so I'm just looking for bragging rights at the pub after a ride.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:41:50 AM EDT
Geez.  You'd think they could come up with something a little better than a huge obvious button.



Like a tape switch for a weaponlight.  That would be perfect for this application.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:41:57 AM EDT
Wow, I must spend too much time on this forum, but the first thing I thought of when I saw the name Cancellara was...

Cancerella, i.e. Armstrong.



Link Posted: 6/2/2010 10:46:17 AM EDT
Keith_J.  What's your take on this?

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:31:11 PM EDT
Damn... looks possible. He pulled away really fast.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:35:49 PM EDT
Wow... that guy pulls away hardcore in the posted video... its just retarded.

And he never comes out of the saddle as though he was sprinting.

Hmm... Ive never seen enough road racing to know if what I just saw was possible or not.

As he comes in thru the city and the crowd is all around him and the other rider... the other rider is standing up and and grinding hard.. hes just pedaling as though its no big deal.

He is either an utterly monstrous cyclist... or hes rockin a motor.

I will wait to hear from Keith_J  and our other resident cyclists.

I wish Campybob was here to throw in his .02 cents.. thats an old hardcore roady for sure.

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:44:55 PM EDT
Bicycle races are stupid. Everyone dopes or cheats. Every pro rider is a cheater with no moral compass or sense of sportsmanship.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:46:31 PM EDT


I was gonna say bullshit, but the acceleration did look unnatural.





Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:51:08 PM EDT
I'm skeptical-assuming a 100 watt motor,  what benefit will this provide a pro cyclist probably cranking over 450 on hard efforts seeing as how you'd need some sort of fairly complicated  transmission to actually have the motor work in addition to the guy's legs.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:55:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 1:55:55 PM EDT by valheru21]
That is fucking stupid.  Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.

The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:55:14 PM EDT
It looked like he was going to catch up to the motorcycles there for a second and he had to let up...

I am going with he is a super human and the motor bit is all BS.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:59:47 PM EDT




Originally Posted By valheru21:

That is fucking stupid. Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.



The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).

They "account" for the gear shifting by saying that's not normally how he shifts his gears.



I do think the motor thing is probably not very powerful.   Even with a simple light, a battery drains quickly.





But in a race, if it gave you a few extra watts above the competitors?  I don't know.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:11:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 2:20:17 PM EDT by TheYellowThing]
As a former competitive cyclist... I don't know.

I, personally, have major respect for Cancellara.

God forbid these accusations are true.

edited.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:14:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:
God forbid these accusations are not true.


Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:16:25 PM EDT
It certainly does look suspicious, the way he just rockets off when his closest competition is struggling.  

The acceleration is almost funny in comparison.  

If I had to bet, I'd say he's cheating.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:16:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 2:19:39 PM EDT by flyfishnepa]
Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:
Just when we thought the sport was cleaning up it's act.  Tin foil?  http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4387/Cancellara-denies-bike-motor-story-others-debate-the-issue.aspx



how can he pull away from a guy that's standing and pedaling hard uphill while he's sitting down and making it look effortless?

in for keithj

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:17:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By patchouli:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
That is fucking stupid. Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.

The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).




They "account" for the gear shifting by saying that's not normally how he shifts his gears.

I do think the motor thing is probably not very powerful.   Even with a simple light, a battery drains quickly.


But in a race, if it gave you a few extra watts above the competitors?  I don't know.


According to Wikipedia, professional cyclists can produce 1600 watts during a sprint.  You REALLY think that stupid little 100 Watt motor (that's BEFORE the 90 degree bend in the transmission and associated frictional/heat losses) is going to produce the effect we saw?  I'd love to see that 50 year-old fuckstick TRY to even MOVE (let alone win a race) with his toy motor.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:19:23 PM EDT



Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:


Keith_J.  What's your take on this?





Pretty easy to detect.  Motors that could be used have powerful magnets. And the wires from a saddle bag (what pro uses one?
) would be even easier to detect.
 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:19:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By patchouli:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
That is fucking stupid. Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.

The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).




They "account" for the gear shifting by saying that's not normally how he shifts his gears.

I do think the motor thing is probably not very powerful.   Even with a simple light, a battery drains quickly.


But in a race, if it gave you a few extra watts above the competitors?  I don't know.


Heck, with the right setup the engine could charge the battery while it isn't being used to actively propel the bike.

Mechanical energy converted to electrical energy.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:19:29 PM EDT



Originally Posted By crurifragium:


I'm skeptical-assuming a 100 watt motor,  what benefit will this provide a pro cyclist probably cranking over 450 on hard efforts seeing as how you'd need some sort of fairly complicated  transmission to actually have the motor work in addition to the guy's legs.


I don't know much about cycling, but Wikipedia says top bicyclists can put out a sustained 6W/kg.  So a 180 lb professional biker is putting out a sustained 490 Watts.  If that's the case 100 watts is a 20% boost; that would be a HUGE advantage in a sport were competitors wear tight-fitting closes just to gain an advantage in decreased air resistance.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:19:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By valheru21:
Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:
God forbid these accusations are true.




edited.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:20:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By slabertooch:
Originally Posted By patchouli:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
That is fucking stupid. Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.

The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).




They "account" for the gear shifting by saying that's not normally how he shifts his gears.

I do think the motor thing is probably not very powerful.   Even with a simple light, a battery drains quickly.


But in a race, if it gave you a few extra watts above the competitors?  I don't know.


Heck, with the right setup the engine could charge the battery while it isn't being used to actively propel the bike.

Mechanical energy converted to electrical energy.


You ever ride with a generator powered light on your bicycle?  It ain't fun.  You aren't going to charge the kind of battery that would be required for that motor to work without doing serious damage to your ride time.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:21:19 PM EDT



Originally Posted By slabertooch:



Originally Posted By patchouli:




Originally Posted By valheru21:

That is fucking stupid. Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.



The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).

They "account" for the gear shifting by saying that's not normally how he shifts his gears.



I do think the motor thing is probably not very powerful.   Even with a simple light, a battery drains quickly.





But in a race, if it gave you a few extra watts above the competitors?  I don't know.




Heck, with the right setup the engine could charge the battery while it isn't being used to actively propel the bike.



Mechanical energy converted to electrical energy.


You wouldn't want that; the generator would slow down the bike and make it harder to pedal.  No free lunch.



However, with all that hollow tubing there's plenty of space for batteries.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:23:11 PM EDT




Originally Posted By Keith_J:





Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:

Keith_J. What's your take on this?





Pretty easy to detect. Motors that could be used have powerful magnets. And the wires from a saddle bag (what pro uses one?
) would be even easier to detect.











You could route the wires in the tubing.  Wrap it in the carbon fiber.   Hell you can use the water bottle as a battery, that has contacts when it seats into the holder.





Not saying that is the case here.  It seems highly unlikely.





But if no one was looking for that kind of thing, they wouldn't find it.



Now, even if it hasn't been tried... it can never be done, because as you say, "easy to detect."

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:23:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR4U:
You wouldn't want that; the generator would slow down the bike and make it harder to pedal.  No free lunch.

However, with all that hollow tubing there's plenty of space for batteries.
 


With batteries come weight.  With weight comes more crap to lug up the hill you were trying to cheat to climb in the first place.  TANSTAAFL.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:25:25 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Keith_J:





Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:

Keith_J.  What's your take on this?





Pretty easy to detect.  Motors that could be used have powerful magnets. And the wires from a saddle bag (what pro uses one?
) would be even easier to detect.





 


Couldn't they lay the carbon frame during manufacturing around the batteries, wires, motor, etc?



Is/was the motor in the video in/near the BB?
 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:26:27 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Keith_J:





Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:

Keith_J.  What's your take on this?





Pretty easy to detect.  Motors that could be used have powerful magnets. And the wires from a saddle bag (what pro uses one?
) would be even easier to detect.





 
Former racer myself.  Maybe the battery pack is inside the seat post or top tube?  From the video, the way he pulls away looks pretty odd but then again, maybe he just put the hammer down and said "adios".  Tough to tell...  Another problem with the switch idea is where is the wire for the switch coming out of the handlebars and into the frame.  I guess if someone really wanted to go through a lot of effort, they could route the wire through the stem, down the fork post and then through the toptube






 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:26:50 PM EDT
Give the camera bikes a FLIR scope.  See if the seat post tube starts going hot when Cancerella pulls away like that...
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:27:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 2:29:31 PM EDT by TheYellowThing]
Originally Posted By TheGunCollector:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:
Keith_J.  What's your take on this?


Pretty easy to detect.  Motors that could be used have powerful magnets. And the wires from a saddle bag (what pro uses one?) would be even easier to detect.


 

Couldn't they lay the carbon frame during manufacturing around the batteries, wires, motor, etc

Is/was the motor in the video in/near the BB?



 


Davide Cassani was a bad mofo in the day. No?

edited for bad f ups

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:30:53 PM EDT



Originally Posted By DirtyDigz:


Give the camera bikes a FLIR scope.  See if the seat post tube starts going hot when Cancerella pulls away like that...


That too would work well in detecting the motor.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:34:55 PM EDT
Perhaps it could be powered by a fuel cell hidden in the bike’s frame somewhere. Just a thought. I know fuel cells are expensive but price might not be an issue.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:35:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By el_hombre:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:
Keith_J.  What's your take on this?


Pretty easy to detect.  Motors that could be used have powerful magnets. And the wires from a saddle bag (what pro uses one?) would be even easier to detect.


 
Former racer myself.  Maybe the battery pack is inside the seat post or top tube?  From the video, the way he pulls away looks pretty odd but then again, maybe he just put the hammer down and said "adios".  Tough to tell...  Another problem with the switch idea is where is the wire for the switch coming out of the handlebars and into the frame.  I guess if someone really wanted to go through a lot of effort, they could route the wire through the stem, down the fork post and then through the toptube

 


To play devil's advocate, there are plenty of bluetooth and wireless switches/transmitters these days that don't require wires at all.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:37:05 PM EDT



Originally Posted By valheru21:



Originally Posted By AR4U:

You wouldn't want that; the generator would slow down the bike and make it harder to pedal.  No free lunch.



However, with all that hollow tubing there's plenty of space for batteries.

 




With batteries come weight.  With weight comes more crap to lug up the hill you were trying to cheat to climb in the first place.  TANSTAAFL.
That's what the motor is for...





 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:40:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR4U:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
Originally Posted By AR4U:
You wouldn't want that; the generator would slow down the bike and make it harder to pedal.  No free lunch.

However, with all that hollow tubing there's plenty of space for batteries.
 


With batteries come weight.  With weight comes more crap to lug up the hill you were trying to cheat to climb in the first place.  TANSTAAFL.
That's what the motor is for...

 


Well played...
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:41:25 PM EDT
Are bikes not inspected before race? The set up does seem like it would be easy to detect in even a cursory inspection (by a professional race bike inspector)
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:43:10 PM EDT
That's the stupidest accusation ever. I can't even believe people are believing this... Fabian Cancellara is awesome.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:43:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:44:17 PM EDT



Originally Posted By valheru21:



Originally Posted By AR4U:




Originally Posted By valheru21:


Originally Posted By AR4U:

You wouldn't want that; the generator would slow down the bike and make it harder to pedal.  No free lunch.



However, with all that hollow tubing there's plenty of space for batteries.

 




With batteries come weight.  With weight comes more crap to lug up the hill you were trying to cheat to climb in the first place.  TANSTAAFL.
That's what the motor is for...



 




Well played...
My sarcasm meter may be way out of wack here, but are you implying that an electric motorcycle won't be able to climb a hill?  Just checking.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:45:12 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Ranchitecture:


Are bikes not inspected before race? The set up does seem like it would be easy to detect in even a cursory inspection (by a professional race bike inspector)


Yes, they ARE.  Which means inspection would easily detect a motor.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:46:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheCanuck:
Bicycle races are stupid. Everyone dopes or cheats. Every pro rider is a cheater with no moral compass or sense of sportsmanship.


You've got no idea what you're talking about
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:49:55 PM EDT

Every ounce matters when racing. I seriously doubt anyone could lug around all that extra weight and still remain somewhere near the front of the pack in order to take the lead with the motor's assistance.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:51:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR4U:

Originally Posted By slabertooch:
Originally Posted By patchouli:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
That is fucking stupid. Yes, it can spin a wheel when it's off the ground, but that shitty little motor isn't going to produce anything NEAR the effect claimed as unnatural... especially with the 90 deg gearing they show.

The mysterious button he's supposedly pressing is the fucking gear-shift (the brake handles double as gear-shifters).




They "account" for the gear shifting by saying that's not normally how he shifts his gears.

I do think the motor thing is probably not very powerful.   Even with a simple light, a battery drains quickly.


But in a race, if it gave you a few extra watts above the competitors?  I don't know.


Heck, with the right setup the engine could charge the battery while it isn't being used to actively propel the bike.

Mechanical energy converted to electrical energy.

You wouldn't want that; the generator would slow down the bike and make it harder to pedal.  No free lunch.

However, with all that hollow tubing there's plenty of space for batteries.
 


Yeah but every single bike that those pros ride is weighed because there's a limit to how much they can weigh. They can't weigh any less than 15 pounds, water not included. So if they weigh a bike and the scale reads say, 19 or 20 pounds, and which it probably would if it had a mechanism like that in it, the judges would be very, very suspicious.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:52:04 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Keith_J:





Originally Posted By Ranchitecture:

Are bikes not inspected before race? The set up does seem like it would be easy to detect in even a cursory inspection (by a professional race bike inspector)


Yes, they ARE.  Which means inspection would easily detect a motor.

 


IF you were looking for it
 I never raced at that level but no one ever took my seat off and shined a light down the seat tube...  The weight thing would be tough though.  MAYBE you could build the bike light enough, add the motor and battery back and still be around normal weight but that would be difficult..  If the bike was only slightly heavier than normal, would the inspector even care?  I was always under the impression they were looking for bikes that were to light, not too heavy.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:53:32 PM EDT



Originally Posted By Scottyman:




Every ounce matters when racing. I seriously doubt anyone could lug around all that extra weight and still remain somewhere near the front of the pack in order to take the lead with the motor's assistance.







All you would need is enough battery life to increase your FTP by even 20 watts for say 10+ minutes, and that would certainly be enough to give you the edge.



 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:53:59 PM EDT
Keith, is it possible that a electric motor hidden in the seat tube of a frame could provide the extra watts?  http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/05/did-cancellara-use-illegal-motor-power.html
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:55:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 3:06:08 PM EDT by AR4U]





Originally Posted By DK-Prof:





Originally Posted By Ranchitecture:


Are bikes not inspected before race? The set up does seem like it would be easy to detect in even a cursory inspection (by a professional race bike inspector)






For one thing, the additional weight would be very suspicious.
I am not entirely convinced that the benefit of whatever temporary power such a small motor and battery combined would have, would outweigh (literally) the cost of having to drag the additional weight along for the entire stage/race.








100 watt*hr/kg is a middle of the road power density for Li ion batteries.   A battery big enough to run a 100W motor for 6 minutes (just the bursts of speed, as shown in the videos) would weigh 100 g, or four ounces.  I don't know how light you could make the motor, but that's probably the heaviest part.  It would probably make sense to have more batteries, to help make up for the weight of the motor.  That's getting to be a large fraction of the bike's weight.





Do they keep records of the bikes weights after the checks?



ETA:  Here's a 100 W motor that weighs 52g: http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-26.html



Double that for some gears and wiring (remember, carbon fiber is a conductor as well) and add the battery and you're at 200g, or just under 1/2 a pound, for six minutes of boost.\



1 pound would get you almost an hour of boost.  





 
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:59:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheYellowThing:
Keith, is it possible that a electric motor hidden in the seat tube of a frame could provide the extra watts?  http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/05/did-cancellara-use-illegal-motor-power.html


Seems like the bottom bracket axle could be fitted with a toothed belt and driven by a motor in the seat or down tube.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:59:33 PM EDT

Imagine a sleeker setup with bare copper contacts on the bottle exterior that contact the bottle cage on the bike and transmit the power down to the motor.
Hell... it would be more likely that he was self injecting adrenalin or cocainium through a shifter mounted syringe.



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