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Posted: 9/20/2004 8:33:45 AM EST
I got to thinking after reading the thread about the guy that got hassled for trying to make a private sale at a flea market. I would think that most of us freedom loving gun owners would have no problem with this, but after reading some of the responses, I had to ask.

So, what's you take on selling guns without a background check (assuming it is legal in your state) and why do you feel that way?

Me, I've got no problem with it. I do worry sometime about the potential legal repercussions though. I'd hate to get sued because I sold a gun to Joe Blow, who later sold it to a friend, who got robbed by a scumbag, who killed someone with said gun.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:37:04 AM EST
I have a few times. Every time I have verified the state of residence and gotten the buyer to sign a witnessed sattement that no federal, state, or local laws prhibited him from owning the weapon.

It may not do any good, but thats what I do.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:40:54 AM EST
I don't sell them.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:42:20 AM EST

I just make sure to wipe off my prints before handing it over, is all.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:42:33 AM EST
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.

Here in PA I’ve seen one Private Seller sell to a Private buyer a handgun. They paid a Licensed FFL a fee to use his phone to conduct the Background check. In the end the buyer paid the FFL his fee and the seller his bargained for price. I would guess this is what would and could happen in other States.

According to State Law, and this almost certainly would vary State to State, the NICS background check can be done at Any State Police station. And while I’m not 100% sure, I think local City and County Police stations are also bound by this law. If you can do this in MO I would not say. But I would certainly check this out.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:42:53 AM EST
I have no problem with it. Just try to use good judgement.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:42:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:43:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:45:58 AM EST by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.

Here in PA I’ve seen one Private Seller sell to a Private buyer a handgun. They paid a Licensed FFL a fee to use his phone to conduct the Background check. In the end the buyer paid the FFL his fee and the seller his bargained for price. I would guess this is what would and could happen in other States.

According to State Law, and this almost certainly would vary State to State, the NICS background check can be done at Any State Police station. And while I’m not 100% sure, I think local City and County Police stations are also bound by this law. If you can do this in MO I would not say. But I would certainly check this out.




In the future, please refrain from dispensing legal advice.

edit: in case I didn't mmake it obvious, you're wrong. Private sales do not require a NICS check by federal law, in any state, whether handgun or long gun. State laws may vary.

Further, regardless of any law you may quote, the 2A made it quite clear that such checks were totally unnecessary.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:43:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:44:31 AM EST by HighStrung1]
If you don't have a valid Florida CWP, no dice. That's the minimum I ask for. If I could place a call to FDLE to verify the person that would be great. I do believe we have a responsibility to assure as much as possible, that the private sale your about to make goes to a legally qualified buyer.

I'd hate to have anyone knocking on my door to question me about the gun I sold to Joe Blow who just murdered his entire family.

HS1
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:43:54 AM EST

Although I have never sold a firearm, it's perfectly legal to buy/sell "off paper" in Oh. Usually folks ask for ID and might copy each others DL#'s., name, addy ect.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:44:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 8:48:14 AM EST by HKocher]

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.

According to State Law, and this almost certainly would vary State to State, the NICS background check can be done at Any State Police station. And while I’m not 100% sure, I think local City and County Police stations are also bound by this law. If you can do this in MO I would not say. But I would certainly check this out.



Not true. If it is, a bunch of us are in big trouble. Person to person transactions do not have to go through NICS, unless your state or local laws requires it.

When I lived in KS and CO, it was perfectly legal. I usually asked for a DL and recorded their name, address and other vital info, just in case.

In MO, the buyer has to get a permit to purchase a handgun, but long guns don't require any checks.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:45:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.



In some states this is the law, but there is no federal law requiring NICS for private sales. I think it's a federal law that you can't knowingly sell to someone who isn't allowed to own a gun, but otherwise, you're good.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:45:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By HKocher:

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.



Not true. If it is, maybe of us are in big trouble. Person to person transactions do not have to go through NICS, unless your state or local laws requires it.



Yup this is that whole "gunshow loophole issue" Except they only want to ban private party sales at "gunshows" , if you sell out of the trunk of your car then thats all cool .
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:46:25 AM EST
"This is Federal Law" I don't think so. I think you're confusing Pennsylvania law with the Federal law. The state requires it on ALL transfers, other than family. The Fed does not require it on private party to private party sales.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:53:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:
I don't sell them.



Plus 1!

If they have a CHL then they have passed more background checks than what? Say 75% of the people in the State of Texas!

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 8:54:03 AM EST
Do I have the obligation to verify that a person who wishes to buy my used car has a valid DL or outstanding violations? Can I call the court house to find out of this person has had a DUI or multiple?

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:08:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.

Here in PA I’ve seen one Private Seller sell to a Private buyer a handgun. They paid a Licensed FFL a fee to use his phone to conduct the Background check. In the end the buyer paid the FFL his fee and the seller his bargained for price. I would guess this is what would and could happen in other States.

According to State Law, and this almost certainly would vary State to State, the NICS background check can be done at Any State Police station. And while I’m not 100% sure, I think local City and County Police stations are also bound by this law. If you can do this in MO I would not say. But I would certainly check this out.



Umm... no.

In Ohio, you can go to any gun show and see guys walking around with For Sale signes taped to rifles slung over their shoulders. There is no background check for an in-state transfer. Period.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:10:38 AM EST
I don't sell guns, I buy them...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:13:22 AM EST
The feds and the states can shove NICS up their anticonstituional asses.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:16:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.




No, they do not, if between residents of the same state.

State laws vary.


SG
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:23:30 AM EST
In PA long guns do not have to be transferred through a FFL, however by state law HANDGUNS DO!

I went to a local funshow this weekend and there was a large sign as soon as you hit the floor that stated, "No private sales in open area" or something to that effect. They have pushed any possible non FFL transfers out the door probably to reduce legal expsure.

PA State Police keep a little black book on all pistol sales; they've been doing it for longer than I've been on this earth. Several groups have tried to block them but they have not been successful. When you buy a pistol in PA you fill out the BATFE form and the PA State Police form. Long guns are just one form. (BATFE).

Have I bought guns face-to-face, yes; and it was a pleasant exchange.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:27:07 AM EST
I will buy guns without a background check but I always sell my guns thru FFL's. Not for any legal ramifications later, but so the Feds don't know exactly what I own. Its none of their business.
I have yet to buy a gun w/o papers though.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:33:03 AM EST
I've sold long guns in Missouri person-to-person without NCIS before - but since we live in such a litigious society, I do worry a little about it. It would suck to sell an AR to some guy, and then get your life destoyed by civil suits and evil lawyers if the buyer someday goes postal with it (and it turns out he was a conviced felon at the time of the purchase).

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:34:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 9:35:13 AM EST by operatorerror]
Yes, but I fully reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Edited to add that it hasn't been legal here for a while. But if I lived in a free state.....
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:35:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:36:52 AM EST
I get the Drivers License #....unless I know them.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:37:02 AM EST
Do you need a NICS check if your guns are lost in a skydiving accident?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:40:27 AM EST
I still do it the FREE AMERICA way. You hand me the cash, I hand you the item I am selling.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:46:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
It's never occured to me to do a NICS check of a gun on a private sale, I think if I was that concerned about the buyer I just wouldn't sell it to him.



+1

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:50:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 9:50:46 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I still do it the FREE AMERICA way. You hand me the cash, I hand you the item I am selling.



Are you saying you'll hand over a firearm to ANYONE that gives you cash? Or are you saying that you'll just use your own judgment, but you're not too worried?

What if you THINK or SUSPECT that the person might have a criminal record? Or might intend to committ a crime? (but you don't actually KNOW). What if you think the person is underage? What if you have some odd "feeling" about the guy, but cannot really put your finger on it?



How much time did the guy end up getting who sold the guns to the Columbine kids? I'm pretty sure he went to jail (and I'm also pretty sure that he didn't KNOW they planned to committ a crime).
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 9:53:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 11:49:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I still do it the FREE AMERICA way. You hand me the cash, I hand you the item I am selling.



Are you saying you'll hand over a firearm to ANYONE that gives you cash? Or are you saying that you'll just use your own judgment, but you're not too worried?

What if you THINK or SUSPECT that the person might have a criminal record? Or might intend to committ a crime? (but you don't actually KNOW).



I just cant imagine, nor have I ever had some inclination... that a person i was dealing with "might" have a criminal record, or *might* intend to commit a crime. I dont ask either. Now, if they came out and told me, "hey, by the way, I am a felon, and I intend to go hold up a liquor store after I leave here" then of course, I would not sell them anything. I just never got any bad vides from anyone I have ever sold a gun to. Typically will chat, talk about ranges we shoot at, etc...etc.... or not.


What if you think the person is underage?


If they looked to be under 18 or close, I would ask for a drivers license to verify...... but it hasnt happened yet.


What if you have some odd "feeling" about the guy, but cannot really put your finger on it?


Then I would have an odd feeling, and he would have a new weapon. I am not here to judge anyone. I believe in everyone's right to protect themselves, and keep/bear arms. Sure, I dont want violent criminals to have access to them..... but I want freedom more.


How much time did the guy end up getting who sold the guns to the Columbine kids? I'm pretty sure he went to jail (and I'm also pretty sure that he didn't KNOW they planned to committ a crime).


And that makes it right? I'll keep living a free life until I have to die fighting to return to one.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 1:02:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:05:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 2:06:09 PM EST by imcoltsguy]

Use your head.
Follow your state's law.
Don't sell to someone that can't verify residence in your state, or that you don't trust to be a legal buyer.
But don't invent restrictions that don't exist, and don't be such a bunch of wusses.


Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:17:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
It's never occured to me to do a NICS check of a gun on a private sale, I think if I was that concerned about the buyer I just wouldn't sell it to him.


+1
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:29:44 PM EST
If I dont feel right I wont do the sale other then that sure why not.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:38:33 PM EST
I traded an AK for a Pre CBS strat. It made me feel free. No ID check. No paper work. Just Him saying I'll give you my Strat for your AK, and me saying sure, let me show you how the gun works.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:28:04 PM EST
No problem at all with private sales. Though I think at least checking the ID and keeping a record of name and address and such is simply the responsible thing to do. I mean, I'd do the same if I was selling a car.

But of course, no more private sales for me anymore!
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:32:49 PM EST
I'll take the background check. I don't want to buy a hot weapon.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:56:25 PM EST
I have a Mauser and Mosin Nagant I put out at a garage sale once and and the only people willing to kick up for them were Californians. None of them were willing to do them on paper and I'm not willing to risk a felony for a couple of hundred bucks. Even if they don't come back to you on paper, when push comes to shove you'd be trusting the buyer not to burn the deal back on you when he's looking to cut a deal.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:24:21 PM EST
I have so far only sold guns to friends or friends of friends, or guys at the club. At the club, I only sell to members, and they have all passed the NICS check to get in.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:28:37 PM EST
If you are not imprisoned you should be able to own a gun, if you are a real scumbag you should be dead or in the big house for life.

I don't mind selling guns with no NICS check.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:37:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
AS far as I know, ALL firearm transactions have to go through NICS background checks. This is Federal Law.



Then you don't know shit.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:42:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:04:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Are you saying you'll hand over a firearm to ANYONE that gives you cash?



There's a guy downtown that sells me gasoline. As much as I want, any time I want. He doesn't check my name against the FBI's list of convicted arsonists and bombers, nor have I ever had to wait while he calls his lawyer to see if he could be held liable for something I might do with it later. In fact, I don't know his name, he doesn't know mine, and there's no record kept that ties the sale to me or my vehicle.

Pretty fucking amazing, eh?

There's another guy downtown that sells me ammo. Same deal; he doesn't know me from Adam's cat, he doesn't call .gov to see if I'm on some pre-approved list, doesn't call his lawyer, and there's no record kept.

Pretty fucking amazing, eh?

You know what's really fucking amazing? I get the same indifferent treatment at the fertilizer store, the hardware store, even from my metal supplier.

I guess in this country folks just figure a certain amount of security is worth trading for a certain amount of liberty.

Or maybe they just don't worry so fucking much about things that are beyond their fucking control --- and that folks ought to be held responsible for their fucking actions, not the person who may have supplied the means to carry them out.

p.s. I love you, DK. But you gotta lay off that Dutch socialism crap for awhile. It's starting to make you paranoid.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:59:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Moof:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Are you saying you'll hand over a firearm to ANYONE that gives you cash?



There's a guy downtown that sells me gasoline. As much as I want, any time I want. He doesn't check my name against the FBI's list of convicted arsonists and bombers, nor have I ever had to wait while he calls his lawyer to see if he could be held liable for something I might do with it later. In fact, I don't know his name, he doesn't know mine, and there's no record kept that ties the sale to me or my vehicle.

Pretty fucking amazing, eh?

There's another guy downtown that sells me ammo. Same deal; he doesn't know me from Adam's cat, he doesn't call .gov to see if I'm on some pre-approved list, doesn't call his lawyer, and there's no record kept.

Pretty fucking amazing, eh?

You know what's really fucking amazing? I get the same indifferent treatment at the fertilizer store, the hardware store, even from my metal supplier.

I guess in this country folks just figure a certain amount of security is worth trading for a certain amount of liberty.

Or maybe they just don't worry so fucking much about things that are beyond their fucking control --- and that folks ought to be held responsible for their fucking actions, not the person who may have supplied the means to carry them out.

p.s. I love you, DK. But you gotta lay off that Dutch socialism crap for awhile. It's starting to make you paranoid.




I'm NOT paranoid dammit - it's just that people are out to get me!!



Actually - I generally agree, and that's why I've sold several long guns (ARs and Garands) in private sales myself, and I haven't relaly given it much thought.

But when HKocher asked the question, I just realized how you COULD theoretically get royally screwed by some evil lawyer in a civil suit, given the wrong and unlucky circumstances. All else being equal, I'd rather have a gun store owner, or some dude that participated in a straw purchase be the guy who looses everything he owns, and maybe even ends up in the slammer, rathen than me because of some private sale where I THOUGHT the guy was okay.

But - like I said - this only really occured to me when HKocher asked the question, If I was looking to sell a Garand tomorrow, I'd probably still do a private sale, as long as I had a good vibe about the buyer. So I may be paranoid, but I'm too lazy to actually act on it
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