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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/31/2005 5:06:25 PM EDT
Based on: 15,000 miles per year, $3.00 per gallon.

Prius and Corolla are about the same size inside. Lets assume a ten year life for both cars.

Corolla, $16,000, 26 mpg average assuming AC on 100% of time and mix of city and highway. Corollas gas costs $1,730 per year or $144 per month.

Prius, $26,000 (really $55,000 but other toyota buyers carry prius owners on their backs.), 40mpg average with AC compressor on 100% of time (how I drive, here in SA TX, 10miles from the Sun), mix of city and highway miles. Prius gas costs $1200 per year or $100 per month. Prius costs $10,000 more for basically the same car, that's $12,000 more including financing vigorish. Add one battery pack replacement of $6,000. So the Prius costs $18,000 extra or $1,800 per year extra or $150 per month extra over the Corolla. So, gas plus extra cost comes out to $3,000 per year for the Prius vs $1,730 for the Corolla's gas. The Prius gas plus extra cost comes out to $250 per month versus the Corollas $144 per month.

If the Prius buyer had to actually PAY for the Prius, the extra cost of the Prius would be $39,000 or $45,000 after finance charges. Add in a $6,000 battery pack and the Prius costs $51,000 extra. Over ten years, the gas and extra cost of the Prius comes out to $6,300 per year vs $1,730 for the Corolla's gas. The Prius ACTUALLY costs, for extra cost and gas $525 per month versus $144 per month for the Corollas gas.

Note: this does not include the cost of environmental damage caused by making the two battery packs for the Prius and in eventually disposing of those battery packs.

In conclusion: If the Prius buyer is immoral and lets other car buyers pay for most of the cost of his Prius, the Prius owner will save...negative $1,270 per year and will save negative $106 per month. If the Prius owner is a moral person and pays the whole cost of the Prius then that Prius owner will save negative $3,970 per year or will save a negative $331 per month.

But, the Prius owner will "FEEL" good about his purchase....provided he or she can't or won't do the math.

Interestingly, there is a six month wait to buy a Prius in San Antonio, but no wait to buy a Corolla. Same wait across the nation...and that says a lot about the Critical Thinking abilities of car buyers. Of course, what it says is not something good.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:12:28 PM EDT


Well, have you looked into other brands such as Honda, Ford escape?, etc. I believe they make hybrids too.

IMHO, I'd rather ride a bike (import /domestic/homebuilt) than drive a prius or corolla. No offence intended to the owners of these vehicles but it screams "conformists" and I'm not.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:17:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 888:

Well, have you looked into other brands such as Honda, Ford escape?, etc. I believe they make hybrids too.

IMHO, I'd rather ride a bike (import /domestic/homebuilt) than drive a prius or corolla. No offence intended to the owners of these vehicles but it screams "conformists" and I'm not.




When the snow is up to yer ass, check back in with us. I drive a Corolla...........don't care what people say about it, either. It's as reliable as a claw hammer, gets me from point a to point b extremely cheap, and it goes thru snow pretty good.

Oh yeah............and long underwear not needed......even in winter.

vmax84
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:21:15 PM EDT
My friend bought a Prius and I feel it is a great car, really awesome bells and whistles. I would get one. Corolla bottom of the Toyota quality line and it shows after a few years.The Prius seems to be a much better quality product, not much comparison with a Corolla, Like comparing a Z-71 to a S-10.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:22:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vmax84:

When the snow is up to yer ass, check back in with us. I drive a Corolla...........don't care what people say about it, either. It's as reliable as a claw hammer, gets me from point a to point b extremely cheap, and it goes thru snow pretty good.

Oh yeah............and long underwear not needed......even in winter.

vmax84




I don't know man, I can't picture myself driving in that type of car.

Good for you though.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:23:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bchboy1206:
My friend bought a Prius and I feel it is a great car, really awesome bells and whistles. I would get one. Corolla bottom of the Toyota quality line and it shows after a few years.The Prius seems to be a much better quality product, not much comparison with a Corolla, Like comparing a Z-71 to a S-10.



Corolla bottom of the quality barrel............dude, it's a Toyota.

vmax84
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:24:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 888:

Originally Posted By vmax84:

When the snow is up to yer ass, check back in with us. I drive a Corolla...........don't care what people say about it, either. It's as reliable as a claw hammer, gets me from point a to point b extremely cheap, and it goes thru snow pretty good.

Oh yeah............and long underwear not needed......even in winter.

vmax84




I don't know man, I can't picture myself driving in that type of car.

Good for you though.




Thanks.

vmax84
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:30:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:32:01 PM EDT
Neither - get a diesel Jetta. 50MPG.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:35:55 PM EDT
Overall cost benefit might not be realized right now......but I'm glad the automakers are pushing alternative vehicles, at least trying to find a way to increase mileage or reduce dependancy on gas. Plus if I am not mistaken Hybrid owners get an extra tax credit every year from the .gov, so that needs to be figured in as well.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:36:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 888:

Well, have you looked into other brands such as Honda, Ford escape?, etc. I believe they make hybrids too.

IMHO, I'd rather ride a bike (import /domestic/homebuilt) than drive a prius or corolla. No offence intended to the owners of these vehicles but it screams "conformists" and I'm not.





I purchased my Corolla because I do not like buying $40K depreciating assets.
Just good biz sense
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:39:48 PM EDT
Forget those POS pretend cars. Get yourself a VW Jetta diesel. It will get 50 mpg in city traffic with the A/C dumping ice cubes in your lap WITH an automatic transmission.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:40:14 PM EDT
I'm going to another motorcycle! It is time.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:41:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
*shrug*

........... I'm terribly happy with the car. It beats getting 12-14MPG in our Suburban (but we're keeping it for hauling/towing if we need).....



Mike: did you factor in the .gov tax credit? Won't be much of a change, but in the interest of accuracy... I've read a number of studies that indicate the Prius isn't as good a deal as you would think. Shame. All I can think of is how much gas tax I would be screwing the gov out of.

Gloftoe: speaking of Suburbans and Lubbock, I borrowed a burb in Muleshoe to hunt pheasants in and took the bros to Lubbock to fly back to Alabama. Took it to a car wash in Lubbock to spif it up before returning it and filled it up. Drove to Muleshoe and had to repeat. This was 5 years ago- maybe more. I shudder to think what it would cost today.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:48:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vmax84:

Originally Posted By bchboy1206:
My friend bought a Prius and I feel it is a great car, really awesome bells and whistles. I would get one. Corolla bottom of the Toyota quality line and it shows after a few years.The Prius seems to be a much better quality product, not much comparison with a Corolla, Like comparing a Z-71 to a S-10.



Corolla bottom of the quality barrel............dude, it's a Toyota.

vmax84



That means it will only go 200k before any major repairs.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:50:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By vmax84:

Originally Posted By bchboy1206:
My friend bought a Prius and I feel it is a great car, really awesome bells and whistles. I would get one. Corolla bottom of the Toyota quality line and it shows after a few years.The Prius seems to be a much better quality product, not much comparison with a Corolla, Like comparing a Z-71 to a S-10.



Corolla bottom of the quality barrel............dude, it's a Toyota.

vmax84



That means it will only go 200k before any major repairs.



155,000 miles on it now. Built in 1997.

Well, I have done a few oil changes to it. ................. Maintenance hog.

vmax84
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:50:45 PM EDT
The Car & Driver review I read indicated that the interior dimensions of the Prius are closer to the Camry than the Corolla.

As someone who literally drives the wheels off a vehicle before getting rid of it, either the Camry or Corolla would be my choices. They have much fewer parts to break, have much less computer hardware and software, and virtually all the replacement parts will be available from a variety of sources (which cuts their costs drastically). 150,000 miles from now, a Prius is going to be a lot more expensive and troublesome to keep running than a Corolla or Camry.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:52:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2005 5:52:43 PM EDT by Gloftoe]
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:53:14 PM EDT
You know, for less than 4000$ you could get an 80's era Mercedes Diesel that gets 30MPG, and with the fuel tank they have, you could go for 1300 miles before filling up.

I own a 1980 Mercedes 300SD Turbo diesel. I get 30MPG and I have a 45 gallon fuel tank so I don't refill very often-something VERY useful as of now due to Katrina.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 5:59:15 PM EDT
I would say go with the Corolla.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:00:23 PM EDT
WELLLLLLLLLLL...I was going to get a VW Golf TDI, but the dealers don't know when they'll have any in stock again. They are sold before they get off of the delivery truck.

So now I'm looking at the Golf GL 2.0L gasoline. So, I'm saving about $4,000 - $5,000 by not buying a diesel; I guess I can use that money to buy gasoline...
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:02:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:
The Car & Driver review I read indicated that the interior dimensions of the Prius are closer to the Camry than the Corolla.




Exactly, the Prius is small on the outside, big on the inside...
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:19:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MikeSSS:
Based on: 15,000 miles per year, $3.00 per gallon.

Prius and Corolla are about the same size inside. Lets assume a ten year life for both cars.

Corolla, $16,000, 26 mpg average assuming AC on 100% of time and mix of city and highway. Corollas gas costs $1,730 per year or $144 per month.

Prius, $26,000 (really $55,000 but other toyota buyers carry prius owners on their backs.), 40mpg average with AC compressor on 100% of time (how I drive, here in SA TX, 10miles from the Sun), mix of city and highway miles. Prius gas costs $1200 per year or $100 per month. Prius costs $10,000 more for basically the same car, that's $12,000 more including financing vigorish. Add one battery pack replacement of $6,000. So the Prius costs $18,000 extra or $1,800 per year extra or $150 per month extra over the Corolla. So, gas plus extra cost comes out to $3,000 per year for the Prius vs $1,730 for the Corolla's gas. The Prius gas plus extra cost comes out to $250 per month versus the Corollas $144 per month.

If the Prius buyer had to actually PAY for the Prius, the extra cost of the Prius would be $39,000 or $45,000 after finance charges. Add in a $6,000 battery pack and the Prius costs $51,000 extra. Over ten years, the gas and extra cost of the Prius comes out to $6,300 per year vs $1,730 for the Corolla's gas. The Prius ACTUALLY costs, for extra cost and gas $525 per month versus $144 per month for the Corollas gas.

Note: this does not include the cost of environmental damage caused by making the two battery packs for the Prius and in eventually disposing of those battery packs.

In conclusion: If the Prius buyer is immoral and lets other car buyers pay for most of the cost of his Prius, the Prius owner will save...negative $1,270 per year and will save negative $106 per month. If the Prius owner is a moral person and pays the whole cost of the Prius then that Prius owner will save negative $3,970 per year or will save a negative $331 per month.

But, the Prius owner will "FEEL" good about his purchase....provided he or she can't or won't do the math.

Interestingly, there is a six month wait to buy a Prius in San Antonio, but no wait to buy a Corolla. Same wait across the nation...and that says a lot about the Critical Thinking abilities of car buyers. Of course, what it says is not something good.



Mike, I have some questions. Where did you get some of your numbers? You say a Prius should cost $55k, when Toyota came out and said that after they'd sold the 150,000th one they'd broken even on R&D costs. This happened like a year and a half or more ago. So they sure as hell don't cost $55k even factoring in R&D.

The battery pack is designed to last at least 10 years of normal driving, so it shouldn't need to be replaced at all for this comparison. But if you do have to, Toyota said they'd cost $3000, not $6000. And the packs are 100% recycleable; there is a "bounty" on the packs. So there goes your calculations right out the window.

Also, you're comparing a fully-loaded Prius versus which model of Corolla? Apples vs oranges. Compare a baseline Prius, willya?

YES, the Prius IS more expensive to own. But I think you've way overstated the real cost.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:22:04 PM EDT
IMO, the prius is unnecessarily complex for the minimal improvements on fuel economy gained over standard econoboxes. However, it is a tad bigger.

I would be tempted to buy a pure electric car if on would be built that could go 75 miles on a charge, and recharge fully in 8 or so hours. I am on a coal grid, so that fuel supply is just up the tracks in WV.

I would entertain the idea, just because it would be flat out cool, not because of any green considerations, although that is a good side benefit. Besides, it wouldn't be my only car.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:26:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By Skibane:
The Car & Driver review I read indicated that the interior dimensions of the Prius are closer to the Camry than the Corolla.




Exactly, the Prius is small on the outside, big on the inside...




Let me guess, at the cost of impact resistance?
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 6:55:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shootemup:
Let me guess, at the cost of impact resistance?



The Prius has EXCELLENT crash ratings.

Comparing Prius to Corolla is apples to oranges, on top of the points billclo made above about cost figuring. Even the baseline Prius is pretty nicely equipped, but the loaded Prius is an out-and-out luxury car. Totally unfair to compare it to the Corolla.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:16:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vmax84:

Originally Posted By bchboy1206:
My friend bought a Prius and I feel it is a great car, really awesome bells and whistles. I would get one. Corolla bottom of the Toyota quality line and it shows after a few years.The Prius seems to be a much better quality product, not much comparison with a Corolla, Like comparing a Z-71 to a S-10.



Corolla bottom of the quality barrel............dude, it's a Toyota.

vmax84



I didn't mean a Corolla wasn't a quality product, far from it, I love all Toyota products. My point being: when comparing a $16,000 vehicle to a $27,000 vehicle I am sure the price difference isn't all in the electric drive train. Ok, maybe it's like comparing a Camry (which I own) to an Avalon (dad owns) as far as quality goes. Similarly awesome cars but the Avalon is a step above.

Argghhh, I think I missed the whole point of this post. It is not about making a purchase choice between a Prius or Corolla, but if it is there are 2 here in Central Ga. No waiting list.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:22:56 PM EDT
Go chev. 2500HD
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 7:40:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:

Originally Posted By shootemup:
Let me guess, at the cost of impact resistance?



The Prius has EXCELLENT crash ratings.

Comparing Prius to Corolla is apples to oranges, on top of the points billclo made above about cost figuring. Even the baseline Prius is pretty nicely equipped, but the loaded Prius is an out-and-out luxury car. Totally unfair to compare it to the Corolla.



if you are saying that a loaded prius is an "out and out luxury car" you've gone crazy!
if you are talking about "out and out luxury" toyotas....get a lexus. the loaded Avalon is the closest toyota main label comes to "out and out luxury".
all that aside,
toyota, in my opinion, is by far making the most reliable cars on the road. honda/acura is good, (especially in marketing their vehicles) but they can't touch toyotas reliability numbers.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:02:45 PM EDT
Mike, I have some questions. Where did you get some of your numbers? You say a Prius should cost $55k, when Toyota came out and said that after they'd sold the 150,000th one they'd broken even on R&D costs. This happened like a year and a half or more ago. So they sure as hell don't cost $55k even factoring in R&D.

The battery pack is designed to last at least 10 years of normal driving, so it shouldn't need to be replaced at all for this comparison. But if you do have to, Toyota said they'd cost $3000, not $6000. And the packs are 100% recycleable; there is a "bounty" on the packs. So there goes your calculations right out the window.

Also, you're comparing a fully-loaded Prius versus which model of Corolla? Apples vs oranges. Compare a baseline Prius, willya?

YES, the Prius IS more expensive to own. But I think you've way overstated the real cost.


Good Work! Yes, you have detected my chicanery.

Now that Toyota is producing greater numbers of Prisus' the unit cost probably is much closer to the sales price and will go lower. Still, I'm sure that buyers of other models are paying for part of somebody else's Prius and making up the missing profit from Prius sales. I would not like to be a Prius owner when the subsidy money has to be paid back, after the class action suits.

When the novelty wears off and Prius batteries become profit items we will all find out the real cost of buying one. I know I don't want to buy one.

Yes the Prius battery cells are relatively benign to the environment, unlike many other types of batteries.

The real use of hybrid technology will be in decreasing the fuel consumption of 'low milage' vehicles. Decreasing the fuel costs of a vehicle that already has low fuel costs is not worth much. Decreasing the fuel costs of, say, a 4wd Tundra will be a much more practical application.

Again, good work. If you have some good, hard numbers on this stuff please post them. Perspiring minds want to know.

Mike S
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 8:57:47 PM EDT
The hybrid platform would be much better if it were a diesel-electric hybrid. Imagine such a VW Jetta? 70MPG I bet.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:05:52 PM EDT
The difference in fuel cost between 50 MPG and 70 MPG doesn't amount to much, unless you're driving an ungodly amount of miles every week - It probably isn't even enough to cover the higher cost of the diesel engine. Also, diesel fuel currently costs more than regular-grade gasoline.
Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:18:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bchboy1206:
My friend bought a Prius and I feel it is a great car, really awesome bells and whistles. I would get one. Corolla bottom of the Toyota quality line and it shows after a few years.The Prius seems to be a much better quality product, not much comparison with a Corolla, Like comparing a Z-71 to a S-10.





No really.

Link Posted: 8/31/2005 9:31:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
The hybrid platform would be much better if it were a diesel-electric hybrid. Imagine such a VW Jetta? 70MPG I bet.



I've been looking for a diesel-electric hybrid or a 2-stroke/electric hybrid to come out for some time now.

There are some other engine technologies that I'm not sure one way or the other how their efficiency mates with electric assist / battery storage. What about rotary engines? Turbine?

Jim
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 4:53:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2005 4:57:52 AM EDT by billclo]


Good Work! Yes, you have detected my chicanery.

Now that Toyota is producing greater numbers of Prisus' the unit cost probably is much closer to the sales price and will go lower. Still, I'm sure that buyers of other models are paying for part of somebody else's Prius and making up the missing profit from Prius sales. I would not like to be a Prius owner when the subsidy money has to be paid back, after the class action suits.

When the novelty wears off and Prius batteries become profit items we will all find out the real cost of buying one. I know I don't want to buy one.

Yes the Prius battery cells are relatively benign to the environment, unlike many other types of batteries.

The real use of hybrid technology will be in decreasing the fuel consumption of 'low milage' vehicles. Decreasing the fuel costs of a vehicle that already has low fuel costs is not worth much. Decreasing the fuel costs of, say, a 4wd Tundra will be a much more practical application.

Again, good work. If you have some good, hard numbers on this stuff please post them. Perspiring minds want to know.

Mike S



I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not about your "chicanery" or what. So, anyways...no, I don't have an actual figure as to what a Prius actually costs to produce; Toyota doesn't release that info, as far as I know. Just going on what they did say. Even if the Prius does cost a bit more to produce, so what? Most auto manufacturers don't make much money on passenger cars; their big money makers were the SUVs and trucks. I guess they average out the profit over the whole line. The same thing could be in play here.

I recall that Toyota has sold most of the Prius production outside the US, so in reality they are selling 2-3x as many as they do here in the US. I recall that they were considering converting one of their US production facilities to Prius production instead of having to bring them over by ship. That tells me they think there's a larger potential market for them. See here: www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106864

They've even licensed the Chinese to build them: www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-08/22/content_471010.htm

I agree, we'll save more gas by increasing mileage of the largest vehicles first. But it appears that Toyota has decided to do an across the board "hybridization" of their product line. I think it's a good idea, frankly. See here: www.ajc.com/news/content/business/0805/04biztoyota.html

If you haven't found this webpage yet, check this out for upcoming models: www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml

Or here for hybrid-related stuff: www.evworld.com/

Some of their linked stories are a bit odd, but most of the info is useful.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 5:39:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sollars9082:
if you are saying that a loaded prius is an "out and out luxury car" you've gone crazy!
if you are talking about "out and out luxury" toyotas....get a lexus. the loaded Avalon is the closest toyota main label comes to "out and out luxury".



I meant to say the Prius is a luxury car compared to the Corolla. I know it's no Rolls Royce, but the loaded Prius is jammed with some great stuff. Built-in flat-screen display, DVD navigation system, Bluetooth interface. It's a pretty impressive list.
Link Posted: 9/1/2005 6:42:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:
The difference in fuel cost between 50 MPG and 70 MPG doesn't amount to much, unless you're driving an ungodly amount of miles every week - It probably isn't even enough to cover the higher cost of the diesel engine. Also, diesel fuel currently costs more than regular-grade gasoline.



I dont know, right now in the Columbus are el-cheapo uleaded is running 3.35-3.45 and diesel is setting pretty at $2.55-2.65. I was thinking about getting the Corolla the next time we need a vehical but I think this is pretty much heading me to the TDI. The guys over on the TDI forums seem to regularly get 55mpg on the highway with the 5-speed.


BKVic
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