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Posted: 8/25/2004 12:16:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:18:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:


His reply was that the weather report said we had thunder storms within three miles and said nothing about lightning



Uh, what does he think CAUSES thunder? Duh. Lightening.

The 2 go hand in hand.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:19:41 PM EST
that was ballsy of you
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:28:14 PM EST
tough call. mine wasnt at all that intresting. it went away fast too.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:30:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:35:25 PM EST
I don't know that you refused to follow an illegal order.

An illegal order is one that violates the UCMJ, or treaties. IE, beat those prisoners, or not feeding prisoners, use hollowpoint ammo.........................etc.

You had someone order you to disregard a policy, or post order. Not sure that goes "illegal". Fortunately you were using common sense, and following established policy, not to mention having a guy with a whole bunch of rockers and chevrons who backed up your call, and made sure others did too.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:38:06 PM EST
Was never given an illegal order. Plenty of STUPID orders, but no illegal ones.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:08:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Was never given an illegal order. Plenty of STUPID orders, but no illegal ones.




Ditto.

When I was an E-3 I reamed an E-6 up and down (I was a prior service retread with a pumpkin patch). He was a one man goat fuck and did something stupid. No one said shit to me about it, either. But sleeping in one hour increments, four hours a day for three weeks will do that to you.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:17:07 PM EST
Refused several orders... don't know whether they were lawful or not; but they were certainly stupid and the junior officers issuing them had fucked up and put themselves in a position where there wasn't much they could do if I did refuse them - so I did.

I was also followed orders to the letter on some occasions even though it was apparent that doing so would result in a huge mess that would draw the attention of the entire command. There are just some officers that deserve that kind of obedience.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:17:32 PM EST
Well i have never been in the Military..... Yet
but my dad whas in the navy and he did have a NCO come up to him and demanded he cary a sidearm, now my father whas a corpsman so there fore he did not need and whas not requierd to cary a sidearm, so the NCO files a report demanding that he cary a sidearm the captin read it and threw it in his trash can, so my father puts in the NCO's medical report "Pain in intestines/stomich espesaly after eating" so they pumped some stuff in his gut and lower intestens to make the suposed hole show up on the X-Ray, the NCO dident walk straght for a week
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:21:57 PM EST
I was never given an unlawful order. Had I been, I would not hesitate to refuse. The only exception to that is combat - if the result of my refusal would endanger the lives of my fellow troopers.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:27:20 PM EST
By the way. That was a good call Sweep. If you had obeyed those orders you could have ended up with UCMJ action against you (along with that O3 and E6) if lightening struck.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:27:26 PM EST
Yup. Had a BN XO who wanted me to "clean up" the AMSS report so our operational readiness rate would look good.

It looked bad, because we were not getting and money for repair parts, and he didn't like that. Didn't matter there was a reason it looked bad.

He first hinted that I should go back and double check it all. I knew what he wanted, so I did... and found two chainsaws that were down and had been reported as up, so now the report was worse. That really pisssed him off.

He kept telling me the OR rate needed to be over 80% and I needed to make it happen. His idea was for me to pull the vehicles off the system that we knew we were going to be getting rid of in 3 months. I asked if he had a disposition on the items so I could initiate the transfer... nope.

I knew what he wanted, and kept being as tactfull as I could. Finally he said I was either going to cannabalize some vehicles to get some up or manipulate the data it took to make the report look better.... both against regulations.

I finally said every vehicle down is down due to not receiving parts, and we had done all the controlled substitution of parts allowed, and whatever solution he had I needed in writing.

He called my CO (I was on orders working through the week at the Reserve Center, CO was at his civilian job), CO calls the CW4 I work for, and Chief called the Major and laid into him...... told him if he ever encouraged one of his NCO's to falsify a report he would ensure his career was over. Major called me back and said just send the report foward as it is.

Prior to that day I had considered going Warrant, and I made my mind up that day that it was what I wanted to do.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:28:00 PM EST
I have never been given an unlawfull order. but have danced around stupid ones
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:33:16 PM EST
Sure. Sort of. Demanded orders in writing from a Captain that was demanding we drive across a live impact area at MCAGCC in a soft-skinned HUMVEE, because he was late for a Regimental meeting during a CAX. I told him flat out 'that is dangerously stupid, Captain, and not worth risking Death for. We can drive around the hot zone and you'll only be 10mins late.' He insisted. I insisted on a record of his Idiocy, so that when they recovered our bodies it would be obvious whose fault it was. He backed down.
He bitched and rode my ass for the next three days, until my Top (I was a Corporal at the time) took me aside to ask 'what the hell is up with him and you?'. Told the Top, he immediately dragged me before th Bn CO, Bird Col., had me repeat the tale. The Captain's bitching ceased within the hour.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:34:56 PM EST
I was never given an un-lawful or illegal order.More than once really stupid ones.Many times it was "Sir,might I suggest a point that you may wish to consider."
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:37:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:44:51 PM EST
Ever refuse to obey an unlawful order?

Hey, what gives here? This is a Catch 22.

If I answer "No," that implies I obeyed an unlawful order if it was given to me.

Allright allright, just joking.

Nope, I never refused to obey an unlawful because I was never given an unlawful order.

Good question, Sweep.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:50:54 PM EST
yeah - when did you stop beating your wife?

need to edit poll...

never given an unlawful order?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:02:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:

Another time I put the entire aircraft carrier on a security alert shutting down the brow and releasing the hounds on a E-4 and a W-3. The E-4 refused to show ID while leaving the brow. My sentry asked him twice before getting the finger - he told me and I stopped the guy and asked him three times (required by regulations) to present an ID card. He refused so I called for my MAA's to detain him (stuff him and cuff him). The E-4 gets on his ship's walkie talkie and calls for the ship's bo'sunmate (a warrant officer 3) to come to his rescue. He takes it upon himself to interfere with the MAA's (who are armed only with batons and mace) and tells me to let his worker go, I say no, he continues towards the MAA's and it looks like he's going to lay hands on, so I release my weapons department brow watch upon the W3. The MAA's take the W3 down as a shotgun is pointed at his head. I call the OOD (officer of the deck) to come defuse the situation and to open the brows for bussiness. When the OOD arrives he has the MAA's release the W3 who charges at me at a pretty brisk pace and starts to tap me in the chest (he's about 6" and 50 pounds smaller than me), the OOD runs over graps the bo'sun and takes him off of me and starts chewing his ass up one side and down the other for interfering with the MAA's, the sentries, and me the JOOD. Too funny. So much drama for some little asshole not producing his ID card. The deck department had trouble with their ship's television system for a year after that. Their incoming outside telephone line never worked very well after that either.




Obviously a precedent needed to be set. I'm betting everyone eagerly produced their IDs after that!

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:02:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:07:31 PM EST

I always obey unlawful orders, with great enthusiasm.

'Let's do the village! Let's do the whole fuckin village!' is my motto, as it were.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:39:18 PM EST
Have not had to disobey one yet. Damn good job standing up to the idiot.

No way in hell I (a TSgt Crew Chief) would ever refuel an aircraft during a thunderstorm.
Here's why;

9/5/03 – EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:45:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:
Poll coming.

I have. I was sitting the desk one night in the Fuels Contol Center when the Weather line rang. Picked it up and it was a weather report stating that we had thunder storms within three miles. SOP was to shut down all fuel movement on the base when we had thunder storms within three miles so I had 5 trucks out on the line that I had shut down and return to the Fuels section.

About 5 minutes later one of the guys at the aircraft maitenance control center calls me wanting to know why I shut down the refuels. I asked him if they had gotten the weather report over the weather line and he said "yes".

I told him that was why I shut down the refuel operations...we had thunderstorms within three miles!

His reply was that the weather report said we had thunder storms within three miles and said nothing about lightning and that the regulations said we were to shut down when we had lightning within three miles, nothing about thunder storms. Then he demanded I send the trucks back out. I told him it was going to take more than his TSgt.(E-6) stripes to make me obey that order. I was an E-4 at the time.

I few minutes later, a Captain calls me and orders me to send the fuel trucks back out.

I refused and informed him I was calling my Chief. He went off on me and I just hung up. As I was calling the Chief waking him, he called back screaming into the phone. When the Chief answered I just said, "Evening Chief, Sweep here sir. Listen to this." And held the two phones up to each other, ear piece to mouth piece for about 10 seconds.

Long story short, Chief called our Colonel, Colenel called the base commander, didn't ever hear from that captain again and didn't hear from the TSgt for about 3 months after that.

In the end, the weather reports there after had to report, "Thunder storms producing lightning withing three miles".



Sweep, I think the order by the captain, stupid as it was, was perfectly lawful. You don't have the right to disobey a lawful, yet very risky, order. If you had disobeyed my order, I would have you prosecuted. (of course, I am very hesitant to throw orders around in the first place, and I REALLY hesitate when troop safety is on the line!)
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 2:52:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 2:54:01 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By Tortfeasor:

Originally Posted By Sweep:
Poll coming.

I have. I was sitting the desk one night in the Fuels Contol Center when the Weather line rang. Picked it up and it was a weather report stating that we had thunder storms within three miles. SOP was to shut down all fuel movement on the base when we had thunder storms within three miles so I had 5 trucks out on the line that I had shut down and return to the Fuels section.

About 5 minutes later one of the guys at the aircraft maitenance control center calls me wanting to know why I shut down the refuels. I asked him if they had gotten the weather report over the weather line and he said "yes".

I told him that was why I shut down the refuel operations...we had thunderstorms within three miles!

His reply was that the weather report said we had thunder storms within three miles and said nothing about lightning and that the regulations said we were to shut down when we had lightning within three miles, nothing about thunder storms. Then he demanded I send the trucks back out. I told him it was going to take more than his TSgt.(E-6) stripes to make me obey that order. I was an E-4 at the time.

I few minutes later, a Captain calls me and orders me to send the fuel trucks back out.

I refused and informed him I was calling my Chief. He went off on me and I just hung up. As I was calling the Chief waking him, he called back screaming into the phone. When the Chief answered I just said, "Evening Chief, Sweep here sir. Listen to this." And held the two phones up to each other, ear piece to mouth piece for about 10 seconds.

Long story short, Chief called our Colonel, Colenel called the base commander, didn't ever hear from that captain again and didn't hear from the TSgt for about 3 months after that.

In the end, the weather reports there after had to report, "Thunder storms producing lightning withing three miles".



Sweep, I think the order by the captain, stupid as it was, was perfectly lawful. You don't have the right to disobey a lawful, yet very risky, order. If you had disobeyed my order, I would have you prosecuted. (of course, I am very hesitant to throw orders around in the first place, and I REALLY hesitate when troop safety is on the line!)



That would depend on whos signature is on the regulation. A SOP or Regulation is a form of order, and if a O-5 signed it the O-3 doesn't have the authority to override it.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:20:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By Tortfeasor:

Originally Posted By Sweep:
Poll coming.

I have. I was sitting the desk one night in the Fuels Contol Center when the Weather line rang. Picked it up and it was a weather report stating that we had thunder storms within three miles. SOP was to shut down all fuel movement on the base when we had thunder storms within three miles so I had 5 trucks out on the line that I had shut down and return to the Fuels section.

About 5 minutes later one of the guys at the aircraft maitenance control center calls me wanting to know why I shut down the refuels. I asked him if they had gotten the weather report over the weather line and he said "yes".

I told him that was why I shut down the refuel operations...we had thunderstorms within three miles!

His reply was that the weather report said we had thunder storms within three miles and said nothing about lightning and that the regulations said we were to shut down when we had lightning within three miles, nothing about thunder storms. Then he demanded I send the trucks back out. I told him it was going to take more than his TSgt.(E-6) stripes to make me obey that order. I was an E-4 at the time.

I few minutes later, a Captain calls me and orders me to send the fuel trucks back out.

I refused and informed him I was calling my Chief. He went off on me and I just hung up. As I was calling the Chief waking him, he called back screaming into the phone. When the Chief answered I just said, "Evening Chief, Sweep here sir. Listen to this." And held the two phones up to each other, ear piece to mouth piece for about 10 seconds.

Long story short, Chief called our Colonel, Colenel called the base commander, didn't ever hear from that captain again and didn't hear from the TSgt for about 3 months after that.

In the end, the weather reports there after had to report, "Thunder storms producing lightning withing three miles".



Sweep, I think the order by the captain, stupid as it was, was perfectly lawful. You don't have the right to disobey a lawful, yet very risky, order. If you had disobeyed my order, I would have you prosecuted. (of course, I am very hesitant to throw orders around in the first place, and I REALLY hesitate when troop safety is on the line!)



That would depend on whos signature is on the regulation. A SOP or Regulation is a form of order, and if a O-5 signed it the O-3 doesn't have the authority to override it.



It was not a lawful order; per AFOSH STD 91-100 no aircraft maintanance or servicing will be performed when thunderstorms are within 5 miles and this is signed by the Secretary of the Air Force
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:23:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 3:24:14 PM EST by 1776]

Originally Posted By Paul:


Another time I put the entire aircraft carrier on a security alert shutting down the brow and releasing the hounds on a E-4 and a W-3. The E-4 refused to show ID while leaving the brow. My sentry asked him twice before getting the finger - he told me and I stopped the guy and asked him three times (required by regulations) to present an ID card. He refused so I called for my MAA's to detain him (stuff him and cuff him). The E-4 gets on his ship's walkie talkie and calls for the ship's bo'sunmate (a warrant officer 3) to come to his rescue. He takes it upon himself to interfere with the MAA's (who are armed only with batons and mace) and tells me to let his worker go, I say no, he continues towards the MAA's and it looks like he's going to lay hands on, so I release my weapons department brow watch upon the W3. The MAA's take the W3 down as a shotgun is pointed at his head. I call the OOD (officer of the deck) to come defuse the situation and to open the brows for bussiness. When the OOD arrives he has the MAA's release the W3 who charges at me at a pretty brisk pace and starts to tap me in the chest (he's about 6" and 50 pounds smaller than me), the OOD runs over graps the bo'sun and takes him off of me and starts chewing his ass up one side and down the other for interfering with the MAA's, the sentries, and me the JOOD. Too funny. So much drama for some little asshole not producing his ID card. The deck department had trouble with their ship's television system for a year after that. Their incoming outside telephone line never worked very well after that either.



That explains alot about you.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:30:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 3:31:05 PM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:00:59 PM EST
The biggest hooplah I ever saw while I was in the military was the fateful day my company CO told me to "Bring this report to battalion S-3... its late so go straight there you have 10 seconds" Being a good private I immediately followed the order.

Hitting the door running I went straight there, cutting across the grass instead of using the horribly longer sidewalk route. I went past the battalion XO (slowing and giving the proper salute) who IMMEDIATELY exploded on me for walking on the grass. Attempting to explain my horrible crime only landed me in the front leaning rest position. The CO walked out to see what the yelling was about and when he saw me there the most interesting shouting match ensued. They argued over everything, whose grass it was, whose private I was, and so on. No punches were thrown but the arguement brough out quite a few spectators from battalion. I just kept slowly knocking out pushups (I wasnt sure how long I would be there) and fought the urge to laugh.

I was rescued by First Sergeant thankfully... A month later when we went on FTX my CO ordered me to take the battalion XO's weapon (his beretta) to maintenance for not having enough finish on it and to issue him a M16 instead. It's funny how the pistol was a status symbol for them.

That was the Army in an Intelligence unit in the late 90's... walking on the grass was on par with desertion and you just weren't in unless you had that beretta on your hip.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:47:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:50:21 PM EST
I was driving a 998 on Okinawa from White Beach to MCAS after one long ass boat trip to and from Korea.

The thing was half full (half way up, way over the gate) with gear, and status boards on top. A zero wanted four troops to ride on top of the board, in hopes that the flap would hold them in. I said "No Sir, that's not safe." He called the duty driver to come and pick them up.

When I was a invol army LE MP in germany I have quite a few tales. Officers about to be arrested tend to order you to let them go

Then there was the time I yanked the USAEUR plates off a helo CO's POV right in front of the hanger at lunch time, with a large chunk of his unit looking on (expired plates). He tried to order me to stop. I stopped right after I got the plates, tagged it for the recovery truck, and put the bright orange sticker on the windshield.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:53:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I don't recall ever being given an unlawful order.



+1
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:55:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I don't recall ever being given an unlawful order.



+1
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:59:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:02:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:05:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:06:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:11:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:12:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By 2A373:
www.edwards.af.mil/archive/2003/images/marine_%20bolt.jpg
9/5/03 – EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif



That's an amazing pic! Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:16:28 PM EST
Another one;

SELFRIDGE AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, Mich. -- Lightning strikes on the far side of a row of KC-135 Stratotankers assigned to the 927th Air Refueling Wing here. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech Sgt. Scott Laforest)
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:21:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:35:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I don't recall ever being given an unlawful order.



+1
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:39:54 PM EST
any officers around here?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:50:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:59:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
any officers around here?



yup
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:19:58 PM EST
Had a STGCS try to order me to gundeck maintence on an MK-116 firecontrol system. He threatened to take me to mast I threatened to go talk to the chief of staff of our DESRON who was our former XO and my sea daddy. That shut him up. After I got out my old LPO emailed saying that Senior had taken the whole workcenter to mast for gundecking the 116.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:29:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAAAwarfighter:
..............t I threatened to go talk to the chief of staff of our DESRON who was our former XO and my sea daddy. .........................



Thats a Navy thing that I don't think I want to know about...I guess it does get lonely out at sea............
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:35:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 9:42:37 PM EST by lonegunman]
You gotta love the total friggin losers they stuff in Job Control on an Air Force base, we used to get that kind of shit all the time. Nevermind the lightning, it really ain't -17 with a wind chill of -45, damnit everybody removes cowling in 45 mph gusts and on and on and on.

We had guys refuse to work in -45 wind chill without a heater even though they were ordered out there by a pinhead LT from Maint Control. He insisted it was 28 with no wind and we were lying about the weather. Much to our joy, our commander ordered him to accompany us to the plane and wait outside while we repaired the problem. It took an hour and we were dressed for it for the most part, we were numb but this guy had blue lips and was shivering and about to die. Weather reports got better in our neck of the woods as well.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:52:34 PM EST
no unlawful orders - but disobeyed about 10 stupid ones. hem
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 11:01:27 PM EST
Never had one unlawful oreder to refuse. The Commands I was in were pretty damn good in my opinion
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:23:07 AM EST
Only one....

It was stupid,I was a Medic and the CO was O.K. after I gave my reasons...( Soldiers Health & Welfare), He just did not know any better.
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