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Posted: 9/20/2011 6:53:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:54:53 AM EDT
GLOCK AR ?
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:56:29 AM EDT
Love this comment:

1st amendment + 2nd amendment = The right to print arms.

Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:56:34 AM EDT
Gotta love the comments....

"You can make AR lowers out of high grade plastic but not the uppers and guess which part if regulated? Yep, the upper. Without the upper, an AR is not a firearm."

Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:57:13 AM EDT
I like the comment,

First Amendment + Second Amendment = Right to print arms.

Link Posted: 9/20/2011 6:57:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Squatch:
Love this comment:

1st amendment + 2nd amendment = The right to print arms.



Dang beat by 4 seconds
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:00:29 AM EDT
That one guy thinks the regulated part of the AR is the Upper.  
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:01:00 AM EDT
3D printing FTMFW, fuck you ATF

DESIGN FREE OR DIE
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:01:42 AM EDT
Ooh, .233 caliber.  Fancy.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:02:00 AM EDT
Dang I thought I was going to see a video
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:03:40 AM EDT




Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Ooh, .233 caliber. Fancy.




Tier .5!
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:03:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Gotta love the comments....

"You can make AR lowers out of high grade plastic but not the uppers and guess which part if regulated? Yep, the upper. Without the upper, an AR is not a firearm."



so GD is only *slightly* less retarded than the general public?

and where can I obtain one of these printers?
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:09:38 AM EDT
This is going to be how we break the back of the ATF, gentlemen.  When we can make manufacturing a per-person experience and enterprise, and design is distributed in the same way as open source software, the ATF will be powerless.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:21:24 AM EDT
3d polymer/plastic printers are well established in the corporate prototype realm, and hobbyists are making inroads with DIY models.



As someone else mentioned, the 3d designs that work for 3d printers are likely to be easily converted to CAD/CAM files. Combine the easily printed details of a 3d model and the 'designed for easy manufacturing' aspects of the AR lower I saw that was made of cut up cutting boards, and you shoudl be able to create a set of fairly simple CNC shapes that you can bolt together.



Imagine - a simple machined metal AR15 lower kit you can assemble with a few screws.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:21:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
This is going to be how we break the back of the ATF, gentlemen.  When we can make manufacturing a per-person experience and enterprise, and design is distributed in the same way as open source software, the ATF will be powerless.


Exactly, I attended an IDSA(industrial design society of America) conference in NOLA this past week, design is driving to open source design and manufacturing.
I am currently working on a chassis design that will be launched via kickstarter to get the ball rolling, at least that is the plan
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:25:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:29:32 AM EDT
time to go fire up the reprap
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:58:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
3d polymer/plastic printers are well established in the corporate prototype realm, and hobbyists are making inroads with DIY models.

As someone else mentioned, the 3d designs that work for 3d printers are likely to be easily converted to CAD/CAM files. Combine the easily printed details of a 3d model and the 'designed for easy manufacturing' aspects of the AR lower I saw that was made of cut up cutting boards, and you shoudl be able to create a set of fairly simple CNC shapes that you can bolt together.

Imagine - a simple machined metal AR15 lower kit you can assemble with a few screws.


That would be awesome ......very cool.

I vaguely remember seeing someone that had created a multi-piece lower that was assembled with screws. IIRC , I have pictures on my old hard drive ( that isnt cooperating anymore )
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 8:12:00 AM EDT



Originally Posted By kc8ard:


time to go fire up the reprap


What's stopping you from making an airgun from scrap, right now?

A Co2 airgun will require a barrel liner, a few springs and its own CAD project.

 





Link Posted: 9/20/2011 8:18:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 8:19:28 AM EDT by TrojanMan]
Technologically, we are maybe 10 years away from a store that sells anything.

I don't mean the internet, which already sells everything.

I mean a storefront, right down the street from your house, that will sell anything.  You go on the website, put in your order, and it gets thrown into the manufacturing queue.  The machine spits out your order a few minutes later.  You can pick up for no extra charge, or your order can be delivered, perhaps along with a pizza.

You pay onlyfor machine time and material cost, potentially making some specialty products incredibly cheap.

Next day shipping is so last decade.  How about next hour delivery?
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 9:35:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RUM:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
This is going to be how we break the back of the ATF, gentlemen.  When we can make manufacturing a per-person experience and enterprise, and design is distributed in the same way as open source software, the ATF will be powerless.


Exactly, I attended an IDSA(industrial design society of America) conference in NOLA this past week, design is driving to open source design and manufacturing.
I am currently working on a chassis design that will be launched via kickstarter to get the ball rolling, at least that is the plan


One of my dreams is to design an Open Source Rifle.  Something with no licensing hassles, no exotic processes or materials, that's modular and which any designer can iterate on so that every person can build one.  Basically an AK for the 21st century - except with decentralized design and production.

Industry manufacturers would be able to build and sell it kind of like Linux: they can manufacture and market parts compatible to the system as long as they publicly release the blueprints and any other manufacturing specs.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:03:12 AM EDT



Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:



Originally Posted By RUM:


Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:

This is going to be how we break the back of the ATF, gentlemen.  When we can make manufacturing a per-person experience and enterprise, and design is distributed in the same way as open source software, the ATF will be powerless.




Exactly, I attended an IDSA(industrial design society of America) conference in NOLA this past week, design is driving to open source design and manufacturing.

I am currently working on a chassis design that will be launched via kickstarter to get the ball rolling, at least that is the plan




One of my dreams is to design an Open Source Rifle.  Something with no licensing hassles, no exotic processes or materials, that's modular and which any designer can iterate on so that every person can build one.  Basically an AK for the 21st century - except with decentralized design and production.



Industry manufacturers would be able to build and sell it kind of like Linux: they can manufacture and market parts compatible to the system as long as they publicly release the blueprints and any other manufacturing specs.


a .22lr rifle expressly designed with those materials in mind would be feasible. Still, you have to source at least two core items that will be out of reach for the average office 3D printer: Bolt and barrel liner. You could metal print a bolt, but a barrel is another matter.

 
Take a look at Plumcrazy making its own FCG parts out of plastic: you could do exactly the same.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:12:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GLADIO:

Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By RUM:
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
This is going to be how we break the back of the ATF, gentlemen.  When we can make manufacturing a per-person experience and enterprise, and design is distributed in the same way as open source software, the ATF will be powerless.


Exactly, I attended an IDSA(industrial design society of America) conference in NOLA this past week, design is driving to open source design and manufacturing.
I am currently working on a chassis design that will be launched via kickstarter to get the ball rolling, at least that is the plan


One of my dreams is to design an Open Source Rifle.  Something with no licensing hassles, no exotic processes or materials, that's modular and which any designer can iterate on so that every person can build one.  Basically an AK for the 21st century - except with decentralized design and production.

Industry manufacturers would be able to build and sell it kind of like Linux: they can manufacture and market parts compatible to the system as long as they publicly release the blueprints and any other manufacturing specs.


a .22lr rifle expressly designed with those materials in mind would be feasible. Still, you have to source at least two core items that will be out of reach for the average office 3D printer: Bolt and barrel liner. You could metal print a bolt, but a barrel is another matter.  
Take a look at Plumcrazy making its own FCG parts out of plastic: you could do exactly the same.


I was hoping for a centerfire weapon in an intermediate cartridge, likely 5.56 or 7.62x39, something that could use existing mags.  I'm basically imagining a homemade Masada with a printed metal receiver rather than a molded polymer one.  

Remember, we have processes like Scanline Sintering now that allow the production of use-ready metallic parts, so we're not stuck with plastics and polymers even now - they're just expensive as hell.  I won't be surprised if we have the affordable rapid-prototyping equipment in the near future to print barrels that are more structurally precise than even the best cold-hammer forged blanks, with the only remaining necessary step being heat-treating... something that can be done with a homemade forge made from bricks, a thermometer, charcoal, and a blower fan.

"A fighting rifle out of every home printer" is less than 10 years away.  And then the BATF might as well just abandon the F, because they'll be all but powerless to regulate or track anything.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:20:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:20:18 AM EDT
In this state, anything home made is considered a zip gun.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:26:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
That one guy thinks the regulated part of the AR is the Upper.  


In many other countries it is.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:30:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 10:31:21 AM EDT by Chapman]
Anybody else predicting more natural selection from this

Wait til some toolbox does his own "tweaking" of the upper, or his "printer," doesn't have the right settings, or any of 5,000,000 other ways this could go very wrong, and the gun blows up in his face.

Large firearms manufacturers spend millions of dollars annually on quality control and design testing (by people qualified to do the job) to ensure that the firearm delivered to you is safe to use.

I'm not entirely sure this is any different than homemade explosives by some amateur pyro with a chemistry set he bought online...


Soon, these AR's will be Glocking like nobody's business.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:32:32 AM EDT
My son works on High End 3d printers

Hmmmmmmmm

Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:40:27 AM EDT
You can get the igs format files at cncguns.com for AR lowers and uppers.

I've taken those igs files, joined them, and saved as .3dm in Rhino.  Just playing around, mind you, to see if it can be done.  It can.

Once you do that, with some cleanup, you can 3d print using a 3d printer.  No big deal.

A more reliable, sturdy output would be done on a cnc mill, which is also tens of thousands of dollars cheaper than a 3d printer.

A universal, printable weapon is probably already on someone's hard drive, just waiting to be disseminated.  You can't stop the signal, to quote a rather subversive movie.

Best,
JBR
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:42:48 AM EDT
The Feds faced a similar dilemma with paper money, back when color copiers became good enough to faithfully reproduce a paper bill.

RESULT: Most color copiers are now designed to recognize paper money, and will not copy it.

I can see the BATFE attempting to impose similar design requirements on manufacturers of 3D printers.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:49:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
3d polymer/plastic printers are well established in the corporate prototype realm, and hobbyists are making inroads with DIY models.

As someone else mentioned, the 3d designs that work for 3d printers are likely to be easily converted to CAD/CAM files. Combine the easily printed details of a 3d model and the 'designed for easy manufacturing' aspects of the AR lower I saw that was made of cut up cutting boards, and you shoudl be able to create a set of fairly simple CNC shapes that you can bolt together.

Imagine - a simple machined metal AR15 lower kit you can assemble with a few screws.


Like so?

There was a .pdf of dimensioned drawings available, but it was hosted on Geocities, so the original's down now. The .pdf itself can be found on various gun builder forums if you're good at finding such things...

KT Ordnance once offered the KT-15-B in an 80% format; all you had to do was drill/tap some holes and bolt it together. ATF smacked them on the dongle, so now apparently it's 60%; it'll require some milling operations if I understand their website correctly.

Impeach Obama and disband the ATF for the good of the children and the home gun builders!
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 10:58:59 AM EDT
How do you download the designs?  I'm not finding a "Download!" button anywhere on the thingiverse.com webpages.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 11:05:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RJGatling:
How do you download the designs?  I'm not finding a "Download!" button anywhere on the thingiverse.com webpages.


it is near the bottom of the page on the right
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 11:07:01 AM EDT
A laser 3d scanner and a 3d printer with an alloy media, and a few hours in a gun shop and bam! Instant arsenal.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 11:07:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chapman:
Anybody else predicting more natural selection from this

Wait til some toolbox does his own "tweaking" of the upper, or his "printer," doesn't have the right settings, or any of 5,000,000 other ways this could go very wrong, and the gun blows up in his face.

Large firearms manufacturers spend millions of dollars annually on quality control and design testing (by people qualified to do the job) to ensure that the firearm delivered to you is safe to use.

I'm not entirely sure this is any different than homemade explosives by some amateur pyro with a chemistry set he bought online...


Soon, these AR's will be Glocking like nobody's business.


Considering the quality of the "3D printers" I've seen, I just don't see how the people making these expect them to fire reliably, to hold a magazine securely in the proper orientation, and to not bend when the buffer slams back and forth repeatedly.  Metal inserts would solve the FCG and magazine well dimension problems, but not the stiffness.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 11:10:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Harry:
Originally Posted By RJGatling:
How do you download the designs?  I'm not finding a "Download!" button anywhere on the thingiverse.com webpages.


it is near the bottom of the page on the right


Got it!  Thanks!!!  (All the way at the bottom of the comments, for anyone else looking.)
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 11:13:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 11:38:34 AM EDT



Originally Posted By MrYar:


In this state, anything home made is considered a zip gun.


That statute has no definition for what a 'zip gun' is, and copy of a legal firearm would not fall into it.



 
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 12:06:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 12:08:52 PM EDT by CONKLE73]





Originally Posted By MrYar:



In this state, anything home made is considered a zip gun.





 






You are free to make "home made" title 1 weapons that fit the definition of either shotgun, handgun or rifle.




As long as the configuration is not banned in your particular state.

 
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 12:42:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CONKLE73:

Originally Posted By MrYar:
In this state, anything home made is considered a zip gun.

 

You are free to make "home made" title 1 weapons that fit the definition of either shotgun, handgun or rifle.

As long as the configuration is not banned in your particular state.
 


What he said, California doesn't define a zip gun either in its PC but the courts and CADOJ has stated as long as it looks like a gun/fits the legal definition of a rifle, shotgun, pistol or firearm (belt fed guns like M2s, 1919s and pistol grip only shotguns) and isn't violating Californias AW ban it is perfectly legal to make your own.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 12:43:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2011 12:46:05 PM EDT by Amish_Bill]




Originally Posted By Forest:



Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:

Imagine - a simple machined metal AR15 lower kit you can assemble with a few screws.




It's already out there as a "80%" kit. You just need to drill and tap a few holes then assemble it. The JPF was selling them, and IIRC they were covered in an issue of SWAT magazine a few years back.


No, not an 80% kit that you still have to tap properly and get the holes just right... I'm thinking of a set of files to cause a CNC mill to produce a small pile of semi-simple parts that can be bolted together right there and then. Maybe call it a 0% kit. Just some raw stock and a cutting program.

Link Posted: 9/20/2011 12:45:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skibane:
The Feds faced a similar dilemma with paper money, back when color copiers became good enough to faithfully reproduce a paper bill.

RESULT: Most color copiers are now designed to recognize paper money, and will not copy it.

I can see the BATFE attempting to impose similar design requirements on manufacturers of 3D printers.


It worked with money because that was a very specific problem with a non-overreaching solution.  Paper currency is a specific object that can me image-identified, and that small limitation does not affect standard functionality and usage by 99.999% of legitimate users.

Doing something like that for firearms would be much, much more difficult because of the universalism of the types of parts being printed.  The lengths and severity BATF would have to reach in order to even possibly make that work would set off a backlash the likes of which this country has never seen.

Want to see gun nuts, hardware geeks, Silicon Valley nerds, the free software movement, civil rights activists, mechanical engineers, machinists, medical researchers, and a whole bunch of other disparate groups instantly united and angry?  Try to force 3D printers to "recognize and refuse" to print firearms parts.

In fact, I hope BATF tries it, because that WILL get their agency torn to shreds and stomped into the dirt.  They can't possibly make it work without egregiously crossing the line that provokes their destruction in retaliation.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:54:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By Skibane:
The Feds faced a similar dilemma with paper money, back when color copiers became good enough to faithfully reproduce a paper bill.

RESULT: Most color copiers are now designed to recognize paper money, and will not copy it.

I can see the BATFE attempting to impose similar design requirements on manufacturers of 3D printers.


It worked with money because that was a very specific problem with a non-overreaching solution.  Paper currency is a specific object that can me image-identified, and that small limitation does not affect standard functionality and usage by 99.999% of legitimate users.

Doing something like that for firearms would be much, much more difficult because of the universalism of the types of parts being printed.  The lengths and severity BATF would have to reach in order to even possibly make that work would set off a backlash the likes of which this country has never seen.

Want to see gun nuts, hardware geeks, Silicon Valley nerds, the free software movement, civil rights activists, mechanical engineers, machinists, medical researchers, and a whole bunch of other disparate groups instantly united and angry?  Try to force 3D printers to "recognize and refuse" to print firearms parts.

In fact, I hope BATF tries it, because that WILL get their agency torn to shreds and stomped into the dirt.  They can't possibly make it work without egregiously crossing the line that provokes their destruction in retaliation.


Yep.

It would be a monumentally stupid undertaking for them - but that won't prevent them from trying.
Link Posted: 9/20/2011 7:55:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Squatch:
Love this comment:

1st amendment + 2nd amendment = The right to print arms.



That made me giggle.
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:05:04 AM EDT
Hey... With the right metallic/epoxy/ceramic 3d printer, I wonder what kinds of knife designs might suddenly become possible?
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:09:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Hey... With the right metallic/epoxy/ceramic 3d printer, I wonder what kinds of knife designs might suddenly become possible?


oh snap... UK is doomed now
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:14:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Hey... With the right metallic/epoxy/ceramic 3d printer, I wonder what kinds of knife designs might suddenly become possible?


I think you would still have to sharpen it, in that case just start with a file.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:38:57 AM EDT
You know... I've done a lot of research on this (specifically reprap). I think it's time for me to build one. This is how we can break the back of the ATF, at least with ARs. If we could have an easily printable AR lower, it would amazing.

How much of an AR could you print?

This was in a thread a while back:
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 3:45:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2011 4:03:15 AM EDT by Amish_Bill]

Originally Posted By Cole2534:


I think you would still have to sharpen it, in that case just start with a file.





Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



You're thinking old school...





I'm thinking semi-disposable ceramic/composite blades with microserrations, a matrix of internal voids for lightening, fancy engraving or surface patterning, etc. Neat things that you can let the machine 'sweat over' instead of spending your own time on the physical production.




Originally Posted By AmericanLoki:



How much of an AR could you print?


Hmmm...

Stocks, handguards, grips, sights, maybe fire control, lower, maybe upper and buffer (at least the shell).

The barrel, bolt & carrier, springs, receiver extension... those are probably beyond current / near future printing tech.



Link Posted: 9/21/2011 4:24:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
This is going to be how we break the back of the ATF, gentlemen.  When we can make manufacturing a per-person experience and enterprise, and design is distributed in the same way as open source software, the ATF will be powerless.


Their power comes from the ability to charge you with a federal crime. It does not come from their ability to approve a form 1. Individual design and manufacture can effect the numbers of large manufacturers. It has little effect on the regulatory agencies.
Link Posted: 9/21/2011 4:32:14 AM EDT
I wonder if you could use a PlasmaCAM to do the upper receiver, kinda like a stack of washers?
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