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Posted: 10/7/2007 8:44:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 8:58:00 AM EDT
Well said raf. You should re-post this in a year.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 9:00:27 AM EDT
Everybody needs to relax, things will be exactly the same under Hillary as they are under Bush now.

There will be no change, except that we may probably pay more taxes than we do now.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 9:49:32 AM EDT
I hate to say it, but this has been extensively covered in cmjohnson's "Don't vote STUPID. PLEASE" thread.

And my opinion is...WE'RE FUCKED!
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 9:52:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I always vote my conscience, I'm not into politricks and political chess games.
+1
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:06:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 10:20:45 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:16:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:18:09 AM EDT
I have to kind of disagree - the only principle that one is standing on by voting for a third party candidate for President is the principle of ignorance.

IMHO, these people have failed to understand how our political system works. In a Parliamentary system with proportional representation, you can vote for whichever party out of a large group best fits your preferences (to simplify and generalize a bit). The Parliament is then filled in proportion to how many votes each party received, and the parties have to compromise with each other to get majority votes on things. However, the US does not work like that.

We have plurality/single-winner voting. Whichever candidate gets the most votes wins, and all of the other candidates get nothing. So in order to advance an agenda, the compromise occurs at the level of the individual voter, who must join with other people with similar views to support a candidate who can win the election. This also means that you can't express a desire for a change in a party's direction by voting for a third party, because they can't win. No third party has a chance at winning a Presidential election when they have no US Senators, no US Reps, no Governors, no State Senators, no State Reps, no Mayors or Sheriffs, etc.

In order to express desires more detailed then which party you want in charge, you have to get involved in whichever party is closer to your views, and work to move it closer still. There are a variety of ways to do this, such as donating money to specific candidates or advocacy groups, writing letters and making phone calls, getting involved with your party at the local level, voting in primaries, etc.

To those who would vote third-party, please study our political system, and direct your passion towards the most effective tactics for change.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:19:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
I always vote my conscience, I'm not into politricks and political chess games.


No offense, but the Libs most certainly ARE "into politricks and political chess games".

I do not say that you should lower yourself to their level, but you should make an effort, at least to understand politricks and political chess games in order to counter them.

Failure to at least do that will be like going to a gunfight wwith a knife.


I understand what they do and how they do it, I just refuse to be taken in by all that b.s. regardless of political party,
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:19:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:28:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jrock82:
Everybody needs to relax, things will be exactly the same under Hillary as they are under Bush now.

There will be no change, except that we may probably pay more taxes than we do now.


Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:28:28 AM EDT
Fortunately the candidate who best represents me is also the candidate most likely to defeat the Hildabeast in the general.

Unfortunately that fact hasn't sunk into the collective GOP consciousness yet.

Don't count on much from WA state, I think it'd be really tough for any pro-war R to win any office in the current climate here.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:28:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
I do not say that you should lower yourself to their level, but you should make an effort, at least to understand politricks and political chess games in order to counter them.


No offense, but Republicans need to learn it also. The RP is a giant collection of constituencies with related interests. You don't maintain that coalition by stabbing your own people in the back. Then when the party falls apart they use intimidation tactics to try to get the old base to vote for them.

In the late 1980s the DNC started to fall apart for different reasons, but they used similar tactics to try to keep people voting for them ("ZOMG the Republicans will win!!!") and in 1994 it all came crashing down around their ears. They have only just recently begun to recover. They learned from their mistakes. The RP never learned from its success.

What I am trying to say is the voters should be principled, the politicians should be political. That is the key to success for any political movement. The voters keep the politicians in line and the politicians get the jobs done. The RP doesn't realize that. The politicians think they can go to DC and do whatever, and the voters will re-elect them because realpolitik means the voter doesn't have a choice. IMO this is why Republican rule has been a giant clusterfuck.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:38:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:
Hmmm....

I've watched Republicans stand on their head and do everything that they once stood against during the Clinton era. I've seen Republicans argue passionately FOR giant government socialism, the welfare state, nation building, the UN, global peacekeeping, and the surveillance society police state.

Now Republicans are saying that principles are bad and going to destroy the country if I vote according to them. The circle is complete.


I share your concerns, believe it or not. I am not a Repub, and do not speak for them. Neither do I say that 'principles are bad".

What I am asking you, and people like you to do, is consider whether holding to their personal principles, thus conceeding the election to the Libs is worth the harm that will befall the country at large.

The Repubs ought to have been forced to hold to their principles long ago. The failure to do just that has led us to this situation.

That, however, is less important than the situation facing us in the upcoming election.


So how exactly do we, the voters, force politicians to behave?
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:40:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 10:45:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
I don't disagree with much of what you've said above.
But let's take a look at your last sentence, that "Republican rule has been a giant clusterf*ck". Obviously you believe that to be true compared with what you would have wished to have happened. I probably agree with you on that.

OTOH, could it be possible for a future America, completely controlled by the Libs be more of a "clusterf*ck" than what the Repubs-gone-bad have given us?


I probably didn't word that exactly right. I was mainly talking about the political failure of the RP. The failed strategy and tactics that are leading the party to ruin.

Thank you for disagreeing and being so civil. It is very refreshing.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:12:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:

Originally Posted By raf:
I don't disagree with much of what you've said above.
But let's take a look at your last sentence, that "Republican rule has been a giant clusterf*ck". Obviously you believe that to be true compared with what you would have wished to have happened. I probably agree with you on that.

OTOH, could it be possible for a future America, completely controlled by the Libs be more of a "clusterf*ck" than what the Repubs-gone-bad have given us?


I probably didn't word that exactly right. I was mainly talking about the political failure of the RP. The failed strategy and tactics that are leading the party to ruin.

Thank you for disagreeing and being so civil. It is very refreshing.


You're welcome.

I agree wwith you on the strategy and tactics business. Be that as it may, this thread is about something a little different.

I'd like to see how you (or other posters) would answer my question quoted above, though.



There are many things in the world and in life where you have the choice of short term discomfort versus long term misery. My answer to your question is I almost always prefer short term discomfort to long term misery.

Had Republican voters in previous elections chastised the worst offenders more, the RP would have been less strong at the time. But then we probably would not be in a situation today facing the possibility of complete Dem control of Congress and the WH.

Likewise, I am less afraid of what bills will or will not become laws in the next four years than I am of what the political culture of this country will be in 20 or 30 years. If the Republicans maintain power acting like Democrats, and the only other alternative is the Democrats themselves, that spells long term ruin. If the RP gets chastised, they may or may not change their ways, but at least there is a chance to avoid the slow train to commieland.

I'm old enough to remember the Democrats of the 80's and early 90's. They were even more arrogant and pushy and shrill than they are now. Getting their wee wee slapped by their core base of blue collars, rural farmers, and a lot of women forced them to tone down their hippy socialism. I think they are still hippy socialists, but now they try to portray themselves otherwise. If they get power and go right back to acting like they did 15-20 years ago, the voters will boot them in favor of (hopefully) a reformed RP with new leadership and lots of freshmen.

Cycles happen. When they don't happen, you can bet a storm is brewing underneath the seemingly regular surface.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:29:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:30:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:

Originally Posted By raf:
I do not say that you should lower yourself to their level, but you should make an effort, at least to understand politricks and political chess games in order to counter them.


No offense, but Republicans need to learn it also. The RP is a giant collection of constituencies with related interests. You don't maintain that coalition by stabbing your own people in the back. Then when the party falls apart they use intimidation tactics to try to get the old base to vote for them.

In the late 1980s the DNC started to fall apart for different reasons, but they used similar tactics to try to keep people voting for them ("ZOMG the Republicans will win!!!") and in 1994 it all came crashing down around their ears. They have only just recently begun to recover. They learned from their mistakes. The RP never learned from its success.

What I am trying to say is the voters should be principled, the politicians should be political. That is the key to success for any political movement. The voters keep the politicians in line and the politicians get the jobs done. The RP doesn't realize that. The politicians think they can go to DC and do whatever, and the voters will re-elect them because realpolitik means the voter doesn't have a choice. IMO this is why Republican rule has been a giant clusterfuck.


I don't disagree with much of what you've said above.
But let's take a look at your last sentence, that "Republican rule has been a giant clusterf*ck". Obviously you believe that to be true compared with what you would have wished to have happened. I probably agree with you on that.

OTOH, could it be possible for a future America, completely controlled by the Libs be more of a "clusterf*ck" than what the Repubs-gone-bad have given us?


I'm counting on it.......
We woke the party up in the early 90's, resulting in the '94 "conservative" takeover of Congress. A lot of us worked very hard for that. What did we get?? George Bush and K-street. Organized crime and footsy in the mens room.
Principles have been much discussed in cmjohnsons thread. You may wanna take a peek.... Or maybe posters from that thread should just copy and paste their opinions from that one to this one.....

Dupe Topic.......
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:38:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:56:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By liberty86:

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:

Originally Posted By raf:
I do not say that you should lower yourself to their level, but you should make an effort, at least to understand politricks and political chess games in order to counter them.


No offense, but Republicans need to learn it also. The RP is a giant collection of constituencies with related interests. You don't maintain that coalition by stabbing your own people in the back. Then when the party falls apart they use intimidation tactics to try to get the old base to vote for them.

In the late 1980s the DNC started to fall apart for different reasons, but they used similar tactics to try to keep people voting for them ("ZOMG the Republicans will win!!!") and in 1994 it all came crashing down around their ears. They have only just recently begun to recover. They learned from their mistakes. The RP never learned from its success.

What I am trying to say is the voters should be principled, the politicians should be political. That is the key to success for any political movement. The voters keep the politicians in line and the politicians get the jobs done. The RP doesn't realize that. The politicians think they can go to DC and do whatever, and the voters will re-elect them because realpolitik means the voter doesn't have a choice. IMO this is why Republican rule has been a giant clusterfuck.


I don't disagree with much of what you've said above.
But let's take a look at your last sentence, that "Republican rule has been a giant clusterf*ck". Obviously you believe that to be true compared with what you would have wished to have happened. I probably agree with you on that.

OTOH, could it be possible for a future America, completely controlled by the Libs be more of a "clusterf*ck" than what the Repubs-gone-bad have given us?


I'm counting on it.......
We woke the party up in the early 90's, resulting in the '94 "conservative" takeover of Congress. A lot of us worked very hard for that. What did we get?? George Bush and K-street. Organized crime and footsy in the mens room.
Principles have been much discussed in cmjohnsons thread. You may wanna take a peek.... Or maybe posters from that thread should just copy and paste their opinions from that one to this one.....

Dupe Topic.......


So, you consider it desirable for the country to suffer damage from the Libs? No doubt some of it severe and implimented in such a way as to make reversal/repair either difficult or impossible?

Thanks for your input. NOT.


I didn't just fall off a turnip truck. I've seen this movie before.
We will survive, our numbers will grow, and just MAYBE, some of us will learn wisdom to discern our true leaders.
Principles? Given a choice between Satan, and a "lessor" demon, which would you choose?
The "lessor" of the two??

I choose neither. I'll be able to look in the mirror later.

BTW, you wanna give advice to people? How many times did you vote for Bush. Was he the lessor of two evils for you??

Or was he your man..........
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 11:58:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
My concern is the damage the Libs will do in the meantime when they are unrestrained and assume their true form; more to the point the damage done that will be impossible to reverse. Laws enacted have a way of being much easier to enact than to repeal.Moreover, who knows how many SCOTUS Justices will be appointed and influence the country for possibly decades? If anything, SCOTUS rulings are harder to overturn than is repealing a law.


Not true. This is one of the reasons why I can't stand the current RP. Laws have been repealed all through American history. America even repealed a Constitutional amendment in record time (by Democrats of course) when the political wind shifted. We haven't repealed anything lately precisely because Republicans are more interested in getting invited to the popular DC cocktail parties than working for change and being unpopular in Washington.

As for SCOTUS, once again having a split court is preferable to me than having it packed with appointees from a corrupt political party that is stabbing America in the back.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:02:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:


As for SCOTUS, once again having a split court is preferable to me than having it packed with appointees from a corrupt political party that is stabbing America in the back.


That's gonna leave a mark...........
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:07:00 PM EDT

The crux of the matter are the consequences of complete Lib domination of all branches of the Fedgov. These are very high stakes.


(Above from a "raf" post.)

The stakes are high and time involved potentially long. We lose this presidential election and most likely we have lost the White House for SIXTEEN YEARS - not four or even eight.

Sixteen years of liberal judicial appointments is almost too horrible to comprehend.

There is absolutely no reason for us to lose this election but I expect that we will.



5sub
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:12:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:22:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:25:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:


BTW, you avoided my question above. Might as well answer it now, because it will be in EVERY response I make to your posts until you do.


I did answer your question. I've seen this movie before. It's not the first time our country has been controlled by forces inimical to our principles. Wee have such a .gov now. We will hit bottom like a drug addict, so those who need to learn what "Principles" are will have the chance.
Given your past choices, you are dammed sure not qualified to give anyone advice.
I'm glad your view did NOT prevail at the tavern meetings with my cousin Sam Adams......
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:37:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 12:38:53 PM EDT by StandardDeviation]

Originally Posted By raf:
Why do you just assume a split SCOTUS? There are other alternatives.

Let's say the Libs enact a new version of the Fairness doctrine, which extended to the Internet.

No more conservative talk radio, maybe no talk radio at all.

Only Tech forums here,and on the rest of the internet, too.

Fox News? Neutered out of business.

A LIB-dominated Scotus would OK them all, and you can be sure thet the Libs would enact such laws given their total control of the Gov't.

Oh, and the Second Amendment? You can be sure a lower-court judge would forward to SCOTUS a nice case when the opportunity presented itself. Imagine how Hillary's appointees to SCOTUS would decide that one.

As for repealing laws, I'm still waiting for the major entitlement programs to be repealed, not to mention the Income tax, just to mention a couple.


I rarely listen to the radio and I never watch TV. I don't have cable. That's probably why I can't understand the inner workings of the Republican hive brain. That's also probably the reason why I have a long-term view instead of "The sky is falling" mentality.

SCOTUS isn't going to be lib DOMINATED anytime soon, no matter who gets elected, which is yet another reason why it would be better to clean house now than 8 or 12 years down the road.

Once again, I am not saying that Democrats in power will be pleasant, I am just saying that if people abided by their principles and voted accordingly, the nation would be better off in the long run.

I am not sure if a majority of Republicans even know what their own principles even are though. The ease with which they can be led down the path to the dark side by opportunistic politicians is truly frightening.

*Editad four speeling
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:40:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

I suppose the Germans who voted for minor political parties (and their conscience, presumably), and who thus failed to band together against Hitler felt much the same as you. Before they were sent to the Camps, that is.


Big difference. They were not an armed American. Guys like you don't think about that, it's too "uncomfortable".
If those had been armed, it all would ended on their front porch, instead of in a camp. How long will they keep coming if everyone greets them with gunfire??
Too real for ya?

Here's a quote;

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror
at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn


Do you always choose short term gratification? We COULD have stopped this long ago. If guys like you understood "Principles"...
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 12:45:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:04:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By liberty86:

Originally Posted By raf:


BTW, you avoided my question above. Might as well answer it now, because it will be in EVERY response I make to your posts until you do.


I did answer your question. I've seen this movie before. It's not the first time our country has been controlled by forces inimical to our principles. Wee have such a .gov now. We will hit bottom like a drug addict, so those who need to learn what "Principles" are will have the chance.


OK, then you prefer to see a "crash-and-burn" scenario occur, and presumably TRUST that the survivors will have the wisdom to not follow some socialist out of the ashes. Like they followed FDR out of the Depression, maybe?


Given your past choices, you are dammed sure not qualified to give anyone advice.
I'm glad your view did NOT prevail at the tavern meetings with my cousin Sam Adams......

What you think about me or my opinions is of no concern to me. And BTW, while Sam Adams had finished his ale and was skeddadling one step ahead of the Redcoats, my ancestor, Michael Moulton picked up a musket and rose to the rank of Lieutenant in the Continental Army. Do yourself a favor and don't try that cheap shot again.


Too bad you don't have the fire in the belly like he did. I wonder how he would respond to some of your statements???
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:15:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:26:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:27:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 1:28:52 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:36:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR-10:
"Lesser of two evils" bullshit thinking is how we got to where we are today, with a Republican party full of Democrats.

Fuck that. I am going to vote for who I feel will represent me.


Good luck, you do not have to vote at all! They represent and certainly take care of themselves before anyone else.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:13:42 PM EDT
So lemme see if I get this straight.....


We were told by the republicans that Jorge was the best answer to take over after billy-boy clinton left office....so he was seen as the savior of the right.

Then come re-election time, the best the republicans could do was choke out a "It's better then the democrate alternative!".....

All the while, the republican party and the republican president passed crappy legislation regarding the patriot act, balloning the size of govt. our national debt, and giving the american people frikken lip service when it comes to our borders and outright fucking those who supported him with his ideals on illegal immigrants.

And now, after following republicans advice for the last 8 years because us libertarian types can't stand most democrats, and because we fear them too, we have voted for the lesser of two evils with the hopes that you were right.

And now...now......we come to the 08 election after having been ass fucked by the republicans just as bad as any democrat, and the best you fools can come up with is "Don't vote your principles because things would be even worse then we already made it!".

Fuck you. No really, fuck you. We bought your shit for 8 years. We tried to lend our principles to your political party and intentionally blinded ourselves to the fact that the republicans and the democrats are just two sides of the same fucking coin. Either way, that coin will fuck up this country.


And now you're telling us that we would be stupid to vote on principle. That we would be stupid to not play into your little political games. That we are stupid for not supporting a party that wants to fuck the people of this country just as bad as the other major poitical party.

I don't think so.

You had your chance.

And if I don't like the choices that i'm given, I will exercise my rights to choose to not make a choice. I will not vote if it comes down to ANY democrat( I will not vote for any democrat) and a republican nominee like guliani. I simply won't do it. Why vote for an elitist prick just so I could say that I didn't help put a democrat in office.

I seem to remember so many republicans laughing at or complaining about so many liberals who were voting on the "anybody but bush" ideal. Now you want us to do the same.....anybody but hillary, anybody but obama, anybody but a democrat.


If Fred Thompson dosn't get on the ticket, I won't vote. Or i'll vote for RP if he goes independant, or i'll vote for the libertarian candidate just to make a point.


As far as buying into this endless bullshit that republicans keep spouting about "it's stupid to vote your principles because it'll get hillary elected", fuck no. I don't give a shit enough about your party, your fucked up principles, or your fucked up ideals (how many people on this board have stated things like "personal privacy is not a right because it dosn't say so in the constitution!"?????).

I'm tired of trying to do the right thing and only end up voting the lesser of two evils which is STILL FUCKING EVIL.

Given the choice between hillary and guliani, i'd write in Cthulhu as the bumper sticker suggests before voting for either of them.


Fuck the democrats because,...well, they just suck. And fuck the republicans because they tried to come off as "the good guys" and turned into a bunch of lame assed liars.


I'll no longer buy into this shit. I can't believe that you republicans understand that your party sucks so badly that you have to come out and outright acknowledge and be open and honest that you're the lesser of two evils.

When your actual ONLY selling point is that you're the lesser of two evils, somthing is so goddamn wrong with your party that you need a fucking head check. When all you have to argue is that people who stand on principle, have certian morals of freedom and liberty, and who stand rightous above the two shitty political parties, will be held responsible for our loss of freedoms because your party fucked it up too badly over the last 8 years, you just don't fucking get it.

You support a political party that can lie, cheat, steal, and ignore the people who put it in power right along with the democrats, and you dare lecture me and others like me about standing on principle when your principle has fucked out country so bad that your party can't even stay in power now.

get a fucking clue. We're not your problem....YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

Don't blame me for the shitt actions and direct intentional inaction that has caused so many problems. Don't blame people like me when the democrats take over. You fucked yourselves. Fucking man up and take responsibility for it already. I won't be your fucking scapegoat.

In other words, grow the fuck up.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:31:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:59:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By GrumpyM4:
#@*(&%$@$^&%#@$^



"He sure said the f-word a lot." - Forrest Gump



You gotta admit it was a quality rant.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:07:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 3:12:00 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:51:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By GrumpyM4:
So lemme see if I get this straight.....


>>snip<<



In other words, grow the f*ck up.


(Snipped because editing the cuss-words would have taken all night.)

Two points:

1) It has been said that vulgar language is the eloquence of the feeble-minded.

2) The desired end result of the poster's plan of action plays directly into the hands of the Libs. Hillary sends her thanks.
'Nuff said.

ETA: 3.5/10 on the rant scale.


That "rant", is called "Patriotism", raf..........
Hillary will be elected, for three reasons; George Bush, republican corruption, and guys like you, whose idea of "principle", is the "lessor evil".

That ancestor you seem so proud of sure as hell didn't follow that ideology...

The "lessor evil", is just choosing which organized crime family you will "settle" for....

I wonder, how some here, will explain the "lessor evil", to their Lord, when they face Him......
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:15:39 PM EDT
raf. You understand the game.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:56:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:59:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 1:05:06 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:34:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 4:36:39 PM EDT by jnojr]

Originally Posted By raf:

Still and all, unless you look forward to Libs firmly controlling the Presidency and Congress AND packing the Judiciary with their like-minded friends, you might want to think about voting for the candidate and party that has a realistic chance of being elected and stopping the juggernaut.


So... vote Republican, no matter what? Let them take our vote for granted, and go ahead and institute big government, wasteful spending, gun-grabbing, etc. because when they do it it "isn't quite as bad" as when the Democrats do it?

I disagree. Let them know that they need to represent us, or die. Let every republican be thrown out of office and let the liberals run the country. Four years later, we'll magically see a truly conservative party arise (maybe calling themselves "Republicans", maybe something else) that will actually work to shrink government and increase liberty... because they know that, if they don't, they won't get to rest on their laurels. And after seeing what four years of liberalism have done to the country, that new truly conservative party will be swept into power by a landslide.

Part of the problem we have today is the near-equality of the tug-o-war going on between the Rs and the Ds. Both claim credit for everything that's right, and both blame the other for everything that's wrong. The average voter sways back and forth based on the most colorful sign they've seen. But give the liberals everything, and there's no way they can blame the destruction of the country on "those evil Republicans".

Sometimes, you have to let a rotten house fall down (or bulldoze it) before you build a new one. Continually trying to fix the old one just results in a lot of time, expense, and materials being wasted on an ever-more rickety structure.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:35:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Vote your principle in the primaries. Thats what they're there for.


And then abandon them in the general election?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:39:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

There is absolutely no reason for us to lose this election but I expect that we will.


There are tons of reasons why we may very well lose the Presidency in '08 They all boil down to a Republican Party that has betrayed the country and the people.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:43:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By liberty86:


Given your past choices, you are dammed sure not qualified to give anyone advice.
I'm glad your view did NOT prevail at the tavern meetings with my cousin Sam Adams......

What you think about me or my opinions is of no concern to me. And BTW, while Sam Adams had finished his ale and was skeddadling one step ahead of the Redcoats, my ancestor, Michael Moulton picked up a musket and rose to the rank of Lieutenant in the Continental Army. Do yourself a favor and don't try that cheap shot again.


Guys... this is beyond pointless. Your genealogical connections to people who have been dead for 200 years really doesn't lend any weight to either of your arguments.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:54:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Takadai:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

You must pick the candidate that "most closely" agrees with your beliefs. Not 100%, but "most closely".

Why is this so difficult to understand?


Because you don't have to?


You are just being silly.

There will never be a candidate that you agree with 100% of the time.


No, you keep telling people they must vote the way you say or they're stupid. I must pick the candidate that most closely agrees with me? Of course not. I can cast my vote for a particular candidate for any number of reasons and most closely agrees with my beliefs may not be one of them.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:56:48 PM EDT
I understand completely, and am far from naive. No body agrees with me 100%, not even my wife. But on core principals, there has to be common ground.

There are some things that I cannot support. I may turn a blind eye on smaller things, because you and I agree on larger issues.

When you and I disagree on the really important things, and you want to appeal to those who I consider enemies, I have a really difficult time supporting you.

Before it gets down to brass tacks, and it is the lesser of two evil politicians on the ticket, this needs to be addressed.

The Repubs are feilding candidates that are intolerable to me. They need to get the message that I will not support them if they continue down this path. If I send this message early and often, yet they continue to act without regard to my wishes... how again is it my fault when they lose?

They are in power due to the consent of the governed, not by birthright or political affiliation.

Unless we send this message before the primaries, then it is a race to the bottom. "Hey, I'm not as bad as that guy... vote for me."

Old P. I understand exactly where you are coming from, compromise is necessary on election day. The best one for the job... not the best ever, but the best choice I have.

My point is that that is not the way to start the game. It is a recipe for disaster.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:56:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:


BTW, Lib, I don't recall you telling us exactly who it is you're supporting for president. I'm sure we'd all be interested in which candidate you are supporting.


There is no candidate running yet, I'll see who the Constitution party fields, or conservatives may run someone in a 3rd party attempt.

I am NOT a libertarian.
We have "open borders", now, so Paul would make no difference.
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