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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/7/2007 12:50:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 12:50:36 AM EST by Waldo]
Okay, here is a philosophical question for all survival minded citizens.

As I understand it, premeditated murder is the taking of another human life with forethought when it could have been avoided. When many of us have sacrificed better jobs and living conditions in the city to buy and live in a place where we could survive independently without leaving home is it premeditated murder for a man to believe that a SHTF situation is possible and to make no preparations other than buy lots of guns and ammo?

Would this not be premeditation to have a survival plan that only includes killing those who have sacrificed to prepare in order to take their supplies or farm?
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 5:43:56 PM EST
THat type of person will be removed from society rather rapidly in a meltdown situation.

Just my .02

YMMV
Doc
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:00:36 PM EST
It's not premeditated murder per se, but premeditated stupidity.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:01:42 PM EST
Those people are just looters, raiders, thugs. I imagine it'll be a harder go for them than they're picturing.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 6:56:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 6:56:55 PM EST by Paveway_]
Murder requires your states version of two things

Mens reas

Actus reas

Taking any human life is against the law. However there are 1) Legit defense to taking or life and to a lesser extent 2) Excuses for taking of life.

These things can get you off totally or simply reduce your sentence in severity and punishment....

If it is SHTF, then use a reasonable person standard as you see fit. It is not a perfect solution, but it is a good basis for your thought process. And if it is TEOTWAWKI then who cares, there is no law left.

If all else fails, you have a throw down gun right?
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 9:49:16 PM EST
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 10:58:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


You've been a member for over a year. I think you are transposing GD and SF. Now observe. In SF when someone posts the attitude that you write of they are quickly told that is not the way to live long and prosper. The first response you got is an example.


Originally Posted By DocGP:
THat type of person will be removed from society rather rapidly in a meltdown situation.

Just my .02

YMMV
Doc


Welcome to SF

This is a technical forum


Originally Posted By Kratos:
No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive.

Now you are really ignorant or trolling. Do a little study in current events of the past year and you would know that murders are quite common for sport, drugs, sex, money, race, and other reasons. Two examples: VA Tech and Salt Lake City Mall both murderers took only the life of the victims. So you could say that those murderers were killing for sport.

We do not feed trolls here, they starve and leave or are banned TJ's choice.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 11:13:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2007 11:18:17 PM EST by ar-jedi]

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


go away. you have no idea what you are talking about nor any idea of the type of people you are talking to(*).

ar-jedi

(*) for an example of what kind of people hang in SF, read page 2 of
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=605810&page=2
starting after the stupid-ass post from "C-S".

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:12:53 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Kratos:
Okay, here is a philosophical question for all survival minded citizens.

As I understand it, premeditated murder is the taking of another human life with forethought when it could have been avoided. When many of us have sacrificed better jobs and living conditions in the city to buy and live in a place where we could survive independently without leaving home is it premeditated murder for a man to believe that a SHTF situation is possible and to make no preparations other than buy lots of guns and ammo?

Would this not be premeditation to have a survival plan that only includes killing those who have sacrificed to prepare in order to take their supplies or farm?


Consider my situation. Although I have prepared with more than just buying weapons and ammo, I bought an armory worth of both and am prepared to barter 9/10 of my collection for other goods and services. If I did not prepare with food, water, etc, would that make me a premeditated murderer? I think not. Just food for thought.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:14:09 AM EST
You can't murder zombies...they are already dead
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 4:03:36 AM EST
Look, it's not murder because it's not a sure thing that we're going to suffer the type of catastrophic event that would result in continent wide starvation that most regard as the sort of catalyst for normal people in the suburbs to be spontaneously forming mad max looter, rapist, thug gangs to survive via the locust tactic.

The risk of this happening is not 0, but it's not 50/50 either. First of all because it's never happened in the 250 years of recent history that an entire continent was so plunged into chaos that food deliveries were suspended to a land 3500 miles wide and 2000 miles north to south.

Suppose Iran floated a modified scud off the Eastern sea board and launched a nuke to 300 km altitude. The EMP might (MIGHT) wipe out all electronics from Maine to Norfolk. But even so, this unprecedented event would not affect inland cities and states. It would be "the end of the world" and "lights' out' for those immediately affected and for up to 2 months, but the rest of the country and world would flood food, water, generators, etc. into the area.

If some country tried to EMP the whole country we'd probably nuke them back into the stone age.

So if some guy "only" stockpiled enough food for 1 month, he's not PLANNING murder, he's just drawing the line somewhere.

Otherwise the argument could easily be made against anyone that since they're not planning to ride out full nuclear war in a bunker for 3 years, they are planning to murder helpless tresspassers on their property merely looking for food or medicine for their starving children.

When in reality people just decide that they can't afford a super-bunker and so prepare to their level and degree of income and 'hope to God' nothing worse happens.

Look, it's like going fishing without hauling your complete bug out supplies with you....are you planning murder in the event the disaster of the millennia catches you unawares and far from your bunker? No of course not. You just assume it won't happen when you're not ready.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 4:43:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:
Murder requires your states version of two things

Mens reas

Actus reas

Taking any human life is against the law. However there are 1) Legit defense to taking or life and to a lesser extent 2) Excuses for taking of life.
These things can get you off totally or simply reduce your sentence in severity and punishment....

If it is SHTF, then use a reasonable person standard as you see fit. It is not a perfect solution, but it is a good basis for your thought process. And if it is TEOTWAWKI then who cares, there is no law left.

If all else fails, you have a throw down gun right?


Premeditated murder also requires "malice". I would think that any preparation taken with thought to "possible" scenarios that may or may not occur do not include malice towards others in their execution.

I choose to carry a concealed weapon in the unlikely event that I should ever need to defend myself. There is premeditation there, but no malice, only preparation for a possible event.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:27:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 6:27:22 AM EST by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


I haven't seen that for a long time in the SF and last time I did the poster was, as usual, booted back to GD where they fit in better. Do you have a link?

And why would no one bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive in a SHTF scenario? They do that now without a SHTF scenario.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:33:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By PA22-400:

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


You've been a member for over a year. I think you are transposing GD and SF. Now observe. In SF when someone posts the attitude that you write of they are quickly told that is not the way to live long and prosper. The first response you got is an example.


Originally Posted By DocGP:
THat type of person will be removed from society rather rapidly in a meltdown situation.

Just my .02

YMMV
Doc


Welcome to SF

This is a technical forum


Originally Posted By Kratos:
No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive.

Now you are really ignorant or trolling. Do a little study in current events of the past year and you would know that murders are quite common for sport, drugs, sex, money, race, and other reasons. Two examples: VA Tech and Salt Lake City Mall both murderers took only the life of the victims. So you could say that those murderers were killing for sport.
We do not feed trolls here, they starve and leave or are banned TJ's choice.


If you look at the overall number of murders nationwide over the last twelve months, including those that you cite, the number of murders that aren't for some type of gain (money, drugs, revenge) is very low. Killing for the sake of killing may make the news but doesn't happen very often.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 6:39:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

Originally Posted By PA22-400:

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


You've been a member for over a year. I think you are transposing GD and SF. Now observe. In SF when someone posts the attitude that you write of they are quickly told that is not the way to live long and prosper. The first response you got is an example.


Originally Posted By DocGP:
THat type of person will be removed from society rather rapidly in a meltdown situation.

Just my .02

YMMV
Doc


Welcome to SF

This is a technical forum


Originally Posted By Kratos:
No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive.

Now you are really ignorant or trolling. Do a little study in current events of the past year and you would know that murders are quite common for sport, drugs, sex, money, race, and other reasons. Two examples: VA Tech and Salt Lake City Mall both murderers took only the life of the victims. So you could say that those murderers were killing for sport.
We do not feed trolls here, they starve and leave or are banned TJ's choice.


If you look at the overall number of murders nationwide over the last twelve months, including those that you cite, the number of murders that aren't for some type of gain (money, drugs, revenge) is very low. Killing for the sake of killing may make the news but doesn't happen very often.


There's a huge gap between killing to survive and killing for gain. Yes, many kill for gain today but how many kill to survive?
I have no doubt people kill for gain today and they will do so in a SHTF as well...whether or not they need to do it to survive.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 7:01:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

Originally Posted By PA22-400:

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


You've been a member for over a year. I think you are transposing GD and SF. Now observe. In SF when someone posts the attitude that you write of they are quickly told that is not the way to live long and prosper. The first response you got is an example.


Originally Posted By DocGP:
THat type of person will be removed from society rather rapidly in a meltdown situation.

Just my .02

YMMV
Doc


Welcome to SF

This is a technical forum


Originally Posted By Kratos:
No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive.

Now you are really ignorant or trolling. Do a little study in current events of the past year and you would know that murders are quite common for sport, drugs, sex, money, race, and other reasons. Two examples: VA Tech and Salt Lake City Mall both murderers took only the life of the victims. So you could say that those murderers were killing for sport.
We do not feed trolls here, they starve and leave or are banned TJ's choice.


If you look at the overall number of murders nationwide over the last twelve months, including those that you cite, the number of murders that aren't for some type of gain (money, drugs, revenge) is very low. Killing for the sake of killing may make the news but doesn't happen very often.


There's a huge gap between killing to survive and killing for gain. Yes, many kill for gain today but how many kill to survive?
I have no doubt people kill for gain today and they will do so in a SHTF as well...whether or not they need to do it to survive.


I agree with you. I was responding to the previous poster and what I highlighted in red.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 7:03:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 7:03:58 AM EST by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
...


I agree with you. I was responding to the previous poster and what I highlighted in red.


OK, I see. I agree then.

I thought you were supporting the OPs suggestion that you will be safe in a SHTF if you don’t have stuff others need to survive because that would be the only reason they would attack you. I misunderstood.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:38:05 PM EST
I do not understand the hostility towards my post or the need to have it moved. I carry concealed every day and have for over 20 years in five different states, but this has nothing to do with a survival SHTF scenario. I, also, have an AK with excellent optics and over 1000 rounds of ammo on hand among my collection of over 25 other firearms all with good supplies of ammo. I am prepared to defend what I have prepared for the survival of my family.

My point was to wake up those who say they are prepared but have done nothing about it but store up guns and ammo. I left all to move to a place where I can survive indefinately on my piece of land with my family and would hope others would do lkewise so there are more rescources to go around.

I will gladly go away if that is what the moderators ask. I just do not understand the hostility. I think it is shameful for men to have as their survival plan in a SHTF scenario to only use guns to take food from the mouths of others who did prepare for their families. I just want others to be honest that if you have not put off storing up the firepower, but you have put off moving to the country or storing food, then this is your plan or you do not really think that the SHTF scenario is likely.

Either way, we will be fine. I am no easy mark begging for my life or mercy. One poster on the survival forum said that he is one of the ones I am speaking of and lives in the largest city near me and asked what the address of my farm is. You think this is funny, well I do not. Getting between a man and what his family needs to survive is a mistake.

John
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 1:50:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kratos:
The reason I ask is I read a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed. Now, if you admit you have nothing to protect, what are the guns for? No one is going to bust in and just kill you for fun if you have nothing that they need to survive. It must be to take stuff from someone who did sacrifice to be prepared.


You're joking, right?

Watch the news sometime. People kill for fun every single day and that's why a wise man takes preventative action.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 3:16:21 PM EST
Your comment makes sense since my post was moved to the general forum. But, if it was still in the context of the survival forum and a SHTF scenario, it would be obvious that I was not talking about the precautions that we all take against street crime.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 2:59:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By PA22-400:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By PA22-400:

Now If you are an LEO is your jurisdiction crime free? Do you have to make cases on technical violations to stay employed, like ticketing for "failure to control speed" where some driver slid into a post on their way to work on an icy morning? Do theft, rape, and murder never happen where you work?




I'm not an LEO. I don't think I understand what you're getting at. My main point was in relationto the OPs assertion that people will not mess with you unless you have something they need to survive. I disagree.


Sorry LEGEND for the bad read I wasn't addressing you.



No worries, I misdirected my response. I've made two misinterpretations in this thread thinking I was disagreeing with people I actually seem to agree with

Looks like the only one I actually disagree with is the OP and his assertion there are "a lot of posts on the survival forum where members admit that they have done nothing but get armed".
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:28:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By ReCon_IR:

Consider my situation. Although I have prepared with more than just buying weapons and ammo, I bought an armory worth of both and am prepared to barter 9/10 of my collection for other goods and services. If I did not prepare with food, water, etc, would that make me a premeditated murderer? I think not. Just food for thought.


Given the hypothetical of this thread, yes... when TEOTWAWKI comes, food will become very scarce very quickly. Very, very few people have the knowledge and supplies needed to grow or hunt or otherwise procure food from nature. When that's the case, bartering for food will be very dear indeed, and 9/10s of your armory might feed you for a day or two. What then? Starve, or start using the armory?

Preparedness is not about figuring out the sole item to stock up on. You stock up on everything. Ammo, food, water, tools, medicines, books, clothing, seed, trade goods, etc.
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