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Posted: 5/13/2002 9:25:18 AM EDT
Pleas don't consider me a troll for posting this thread, me being a newbie and all. Its an honst inquire to the opinions of this board to what you believe. If your not a Christian please do not contaminate this post. I would like to hear your opinions and reasons for your beliefs on the subject. I will gladly post mine after I hear some of your comments. After lurking here for a while I know some of you are very knowledgeable about the Bible and there are different views as to the interpertation about the rapture. I would very much like to hear them. Thanks Bug Splatter
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 9:35:37 AM EDT
Rapture is post-trib.......
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 9:41:32 AM EDT
The most straightforward way to read the prophecies is that the rapture is post-trib. Nowhere is a pre-trib rapture explicity foretold. People infer it because they think it makes for better correlation between things that Paul wrote in his letters and John wrote in his Revelation or because they think it makes for a better explanation of events during the tribulation if the church is not around.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 9:43:55 AM EDT
There would never be any thought of a Rapture except for a total misreading of Scripture. An invisible return of Jesus for His Church to snatch them away from the perils of the Great Tribulation defies His words, the Scripture, and common sense. Why should this 'Final Generation' of Christians be spared the Tribulation that was not spared to others? I am certain that a lot of Christians during the Neronian persecutions, the Diocletian persecutions, and other such circumstances prayed to Our God, 'Lord Come Quickly!', but to no avail. But we, who have forsaken just about every shred of old time religion, etc., [b]no[/b], [u]we[/u] are the ones who will be spared! Nope. Jesus said: [red][b]He that endureth to the end shall be saved.'[/b][/red] Eric The(AndIThinkWeKnowWhatHEMeant)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 9:58:04 AM EDT
I guess this means those pastors who advocate pre-trib are apostate...... All the more reason for each individual to be accountable before God.....
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 10:05:32 AM EDT
What slays me, though, is not whether they teach wrongly or rightly, but that they neglect to teach what ever soul needs to hear, in order to teach what Jesus Himself devoted little time to. If we are His followers, shouldn't we be following Him, and not going off the path into the tall grass where His footsteps never trod? You get the fundamentals down correctly, you see that those fundamentals are preached and adhered to, and [u]then[/u], finally, we can all sit around discussing what Heaven will be like. But not until then. Eric The(Jesus,AndHimCrucified)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 11:20:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 11:33:14 AM EDT by ilikelegs]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 11:48:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 11:49:44 AM EDT by DScott]
You've heard that saying, "Sometimes you're the bug, and sometimes you're the windshield", right? Is there an analogy here? Are you guys saying that we're all bugs, and the windshield is the tribulations? No way to escape getting splattered? And the post-trib rapture is post-splatter somehow? Would a pre-trib rapture mean avoiding the windshield all together?
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 12:20:48 PM EDT
How about: [red]No such thing as the rapture.[/red] No one even heard of it until the mid 1800s. try this: [url=http://www.catholic.com/library/rapture.asp]The Rapture[/url] and this: [url=http://www.scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html]The Second Coming[/url]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 12:41:51 PM EDT
Well it looks like 3 for post trib and one so far for pre trib. ilikelegs was the only one who quoted scripture or listed the verses to support his view. DScott My screen name has nothing to do with the thread but a good analogy. I'd like to hear more from you guys. Especially from [b]garandman[/b] since I have read so many of his replies to other threads about Israel. He seems to be pretty knowledgable about the scriptures.
originally posted by EricTheHun: There would never be any thought of a Rapture except for a total misreading of Scripture. An invisible return of Jesus for His Church to snatch them away from the perils of the Great Tribulation defies His words, the Scripture, and common sense. Why should this 'Final Generation' of Christians be spared the Tribulation that was not spared to others?
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Mr. Hun, ilikelegs brought up a few points that would seem to contradict this. Would you mind giving me your opinion on what he brought to our attention ?
originally posted by BostonTeaParty The most straightforward way to read the prophecies is that the rapture is post-trib. Nowhere is a pre-trib rapture explicity foretold
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Does this mean you read the Bible literally and there is no room for insight or theory? At what point in time do we recognize the events in the world to corralate to prophecies that represent the present day events. I don't know if this makes sense or not but Revelation is not the only chapter that would discuse this. What are your thoughts on what ilikelegs said:
For the record, the word rapture comes from the Latin word rapturo, which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up - it's all the same thing.
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Again I would like to hear more arguments about this. Its something I'm interested in and I am entertaining all of your opinions with an open mind. Thanks Bug Splatter
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:06:15 PM EDT
From [b]Luke, Chapter 17[/b]: 22 And he said unto the disciples, [red][b]The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.[/b][/red] [blue]The Church will be looking for the Return of Christ.[/blue] 23 [red][b]And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.[/b][/red] [blue]Many false Christs will arise and deceive many.[/blue] 24 [red][b]For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.[/b][/red] [blue]Just as lightning cannot be hidden, but shineth from one part of Heaven to the other, the Return of Christ wll be visible and understood by all![/blue] 25 [red][/b]But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.[/b][/red] [blue]Christ will be reject at His first coming.[/blue] 26 [red][b]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.[/b][/red] [blue]Nothing will be 'out of the ordinary' among those whose are not the Elect. Things will be the same 'as it was from the beginning.'[/blue] 27 [red][b]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[/b][/red] [blue]Noah and his family were the Elect in their day and were spared from the Flood. The Church will be the Ark in the days of Christ's return.[/blue] 28 [red][b]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[/b][/red] [blue]Business as usual.[/blue] 29 [red][b]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[/b][/red] 30 [red][b]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.[/b][/red] [blue]Sudden, out of the blue![/blue] 31 [red][b]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.[/b][/red] [blue]Some will be taken, others left.[/blue] 32 [red][b]Remember Lot's wife.[/b][/red] 33 [red][b]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.[/b][/red] 34 [red][b]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.[/b][/red] 35 [red][b]Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[/b][/red] 36 [red][b]Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[/b][/red] 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, [red][b]Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.[/b][/red] There is nothing in any of this that would support a private, invisble return of Christ to the Earth to snatch away His church to save it from the trials of the Great Tribulation. Eric The(Lengthy)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:23:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter: If your not a Christian please do not contaminate this post. Thanks Bug Splatter
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Oops.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:24:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 1:26:07 PM EDT by BostonTeaParty]
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter:
originally posted by BostonTeaParty The most straightforward way to read the prophecies is that the rapture is post-trib. Nowhere is a pre-trib rapture explicity foretold
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Does this mean you read the Bible literally and there is no room for insight or theory? At what point in time do we recognize the events in the world to corralate to prophecies that represent the present day events. I don't know if this makes sense or not but Revelation is not the only chapter that would discuse this.
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I'm just applying Occam's razor. The simplest explanation to fit all the facts is preferred. Jesus said he is coming back to earth. Paul said Jesus would come back. John said Jesus would come back. The simplest explanation is that they were all talking about one and the same event. It adds unnecessary complexity to assume that they were talking about separate returns by Jesus when none of them mention more than one return. Why wouldn't Jesus have told his disciples about this special pre-trib rapture when they asked him about the signs of his second coming? He only talked about one return, and that "after the distress of those days" (Matthew 24:29). Read all of Matthew 24 if you are interested; it's instructive.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:33:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter: Well it looks like 3 for post trib and one so far for pre trib.
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More accurately, 3 for post, 1 for pre, and 2 for none. ETH is quite correct in no secret return of Christ. Acts of the Apostles 1:11 [red]"Men of Galilee, wy do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."[/red] And it was definitely not secretly or invisibly. Scripture speaks of only to comings of Christ: 1st as an infant 2nd at the Second Coming at the Last Judgment. Hebrews 9:28 [red]so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.[/red]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:34:26 PM EDT
As an honest reply to an honest question, I personally do not read revelation to mean an upcoming rapture or tribulation. IMHO, the most likely explanation is that the writer is talking about the Roman empire and the persecution of the Christians during that time. The "beast" is probably the Roman emperor, Nero. I've come to this believe through my own readings of scripture, through many a bible study, and some outside readings. As is obvious, no, I don't read scripture literally. regards, legrue
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:35:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 1:42:42 PM EDT by Bug_splatter]
Mr. Hun Thanks for your replies.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. Christ will be reject at His first coming.
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I believe this already happened, Jesus's first arrival he was rejected and crucified, so this has already happened. I would like to point out a few of them that I think actually support the pre trib position. Particually this
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Noah and his family were the Elect in their day and were spared from the Flood. The Church will be the Ark in the days of Christ's return.
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Could not the rapture be the Ark, sparing the body of the Christian church ?
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Some will be taken, others left. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
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This sounds like the rapture to me. The ones that were taken were Christians, those that were left were not Christians. And what about the scripture that talks about Christ returning with 10,000 of his saints for the final battle with the Kings of the East ? Are those Saints the believers, they are not Angels, they could be Christians from the rapture for they will rule with Christ for 1000 years on Earth, at which time Satan will be let lose again. After this period the final judgement where Satan is finally cast into the lake of fire. What good does it do to have : "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." I think the time frame would not be effective for the others left behind to realize what had just happened. It gives no one else a chance to realize the second coming and for those to repent. I think this further describes a rapture becuase Jesus later comes down to do battle on a white horse with his saints. I don't feel that the Lord calls out " Come up Hither" and at the same time goes down to do battle. Still thinking and thank you again.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:40:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44) I guess no one would expect a pre trib rapture so maybe this would apply.
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In Matthew 24, Jesus is very explicitly talking about his return at the end of the tribulation. Read the whole chapter and it is very clear. Particularly reference verses 29-31: [red]Immediately after the distress of those 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.[/red]
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thes 5:9)
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He's talking about eternal wrath and eternal salvation. What else would you say to the Hebrews 11 heroes of the faith: [red]"Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised."[/red]
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10)
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That was a promise given to the church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor, not America). Going back to Matthew 24, Jesus says that the days of tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect: [red]"For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."[/red]
In 2 Thessalonians the apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before that the Antichrist can be revealed. The identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. Once the church is removed then the Anti-Christ can come on to the scene.
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That is a plausible explanation, but not the only possible explanation. I don't see why God couldn't remove his restraint of evil and the Antichrist without removing the church. The presence of the church is not the only way that God restrains evil in this world. For example, government is one other restraint that God uses.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:43:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By loonybin: More accurately, 3 for post, 1 for pre, and 2 for none.
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Do you mean no return of Christ, no tribulation, or no gathering of the saints? Otherwise I fail to see the distinction between post-trib and "none of the above".
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:55:38 PM EDT
I don't agree with the pre-trib arguments either. I don't study the bible for a living--but I do read it quite a bit and haven't come across anything that makes me think we'll be spared the trials of the tribulation. It's quite clear to me that we will have to suffer through these things...and for some reason it seems fitting. I am rather surprised that so many hear seem to agree. Almost everyone nowadays seems to think it will be pre-trib. I don't know if it is just wishful thinking on their part or what, but I just don't see the evidence when reading the bible from the simplest perspective (as BostonTeaParty mentioned).
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:57:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 1:57:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 2:13:49 PM EDT
I am prescribe to the "Pan" theory...It's all gonna pan out!!! Seriously I think this issue has been debated for a long time. I personally believe in the Pre-Trib, but that’s just me...I am prepared for whatever takes place. A couple of interesting verses in the book of Revelations are: "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophesy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." Revelation 1:3 NKJ (Several times in Revelation it makes mention that the reader will be blessed by reading it) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophesy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Revelation 22:18-19 NKJ
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 2:36:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter: This sounds like the rapture to me. The ones that were taken were Christians, those that were left were not Christians.
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Actually, it means one will be arrested/taken away/killed, and one will not. It has nothing to do with a "rapture," which doesn't exist in the current understanding among much of the evangelical Christian world. Boston, I mean there is no rapture as most people view it. There will [b]definitely[/b] be a second coming of Christ (He promised). There will definitely be a period of persecution and difficulities (I'd say they went through it for 300 years after He ascended, and it still happens all over the world). HOWEVER, the whole notion of a 1000 year reign is [i]symbolic[/i] of eternity with Christ. If you haven't already, check out the two links I provided earlier: [url=http://www.scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html]The Second Coming[/url] and [url=http://www.catholic.com/library/rapture.asp]The Rapture[/url] They tend to explain it better than I can with such a character limit as this board has.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 2:40:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter: If your not a Christian please do not contaminate this post. Thanks Bug Splatter
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Oops.
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Oh, guess that includes atheists. But if this discussion enters that freako-fanatical catagory, which there's no doubt it will....I'll be forced to return. Keep it clean fellas.....don't make me come back here.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 2:47:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 3:16:21 PM EDT
I believe in a pre-trib rapture based on Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks and Paul's letters. I think the most compelling argument for the pre-trib timing is that The Church, which has been baptized of the Holy Spririt must be removed from earth so that the Antichrist can sieze control of the world religions and through the false trinity, ie the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet, fool the world in to believing that he not only is to be worshiped as God but that he is God. Daniel's 70th week portrays a seven year treaty, and the Antichrist breaks the treaty at 3 1/2 years, which pinpoints the mid point of the tribulation, so from there on it is just a matter of counting the days until Christ returns to conquer the antichrist and claim the throne of David. If Christ was correct when he said no man knows the day or the hour of his return, then he must have been talking about when he would return for his Bride not when he would come as the conquering King. Another point, when Christ comes for his Church he comes alone to gather them to himself, when he comes at the end of the tribulatuion he comes with an army of thousands.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 3:36:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 3:39:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 3:44:18 PM EDT by bsouth401]
I would like to suggests a couple of books. Things to Come by J. Dwight Pentecost and The Last Days Handbook by Robert P. Lightner, TH.D. A comprehensive guide to understanding the different views of prophecy. Who believes what about prophecy and why. Count me pre-trib.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 3:55:54 PM EDT
Well, it can't be that the Church and the Anti-Christ cannot physically occupy earth at the same time: [b]1 John 4:3[/b]: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; [b]and even now already is it in the world[/b]. The spirit of Anti-Christ has been with us from the very beginning. He is the Old Accuser, the Serpent, the Lord of Flies, the Prince of the Power of the Air, the Prince of this world, the Prince of darkness, etc. Christ at the Last Supper presents a time of reunion in His Father's Kingdom, that is pleasant and completely satisfying. There is no warlike imagery that when we finish kicking butt of Satan and his minions, we will sit down at the Wedding Feast in peace. Remember that one Angel of Death was sufficient to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. Imagine what ten legions of such angels could do! Eric The(WhyArgue,ItWillBeAsHEWantsIt)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 4:06:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 5:08:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 5:10:39 PM EDT by BostonTeaParty]
Originally Posted By ELEFTARIA: I think the most compelling argument for the pre-trib timing is that The Church, which has been baptized of the Holy Spririt must be removed from earth so that the Antichrist can sieze control of the world religions and through the false trinity, ie the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet, fool the world in to believing that he not only is to be worshiped as God but that he is God.
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And why would he need the church out of the way to do this? He seems to be doing a pretty good job (so to speak) so far even with the church around.
Daniel's 70th week portrays a seven year treaty, and the Antichrist breaks the treaty at 3 1/2 years, which pinpoints the mid point of the tribulation, so from there on it is just a matter of counting the days until Christ returns to conquer the antichrist and claim the throne of David. If Christ was correct when he said no man knows the day or the hour of his return, then he must have been talking about when he would return for his Bride not when he would come as the conquering King.
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This is demonstrably false. Just read Matthew 24 and you will see that it is so. The same place where he says that no one knows the day or the hour (Matthew 24:36) is where he talks about the timing of his return and its manner. It will be after "you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel" (Matthew 24:15) and "immediately after the distress of those days" (Matthew 24:29) that the "sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:30-31) The position that there must be a pre-trib rapture based on what Christ said in Matthew 24:36 is completely untenable based upon the surrounding context.
Another point, when Christ comes for his Church he comes alone to gather them to himself, when he comes at the end of the tribulatuion he comes with an army of thousands.
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Not so. See Matthew 24:31 above.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 5:21:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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These are the people who where left behind and did not take the mark and chose to beleive in Christ during the tribulation.
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What necessitates these people being "left behind"? There is nothing in that passage that says anything one way or the other about the timing of the rapture. They could just as easily be saints still waiting for the post-trib return of Christ.
The purpose of the two witnesses is to preach the gospel to all the world during the Tribulation. The fact that the Lord has seen fit to send these two men to accomplish this further clarifies that there is the opportunity for repentance and salvation during the Tribulation. Christians have already accepted Jesus so there is no reason to have the gospel re preached to those who have already accepted Christ. They were sent to those left behind.
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Again, there's nothing here that necessitates anyone being "left behind." Even if there is no need for those who have already accepted Jesus to hear their message, I don't see why it would hurt for them to hear it. God has not removed his people before to keep them from hearing any of his previous prophets/witnesses.
[b]Who is the restrainer?[/b]
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It's a fairly logical assumption that the restrainer spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit. But the removal of his restraint does not necessarily imply that the church is removed from the earth. God's Spirit fills the whole universe. As David wrote in Psalm 139: "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there." The removal of restraint does not imply any physical removal of God's presence (as if that were something confined to space-time), it is saying that God will permit something he has not permitted up to that time.
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 5:28:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs: I was under the impression that the 10,000 or so saints would be the us, the raptured Christians. I very well could be wrong.
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Do you know where this idea comes from? The only description of which I am aware simply calls them the armies of heaven. Revelation 19:11-16: [red]I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.[/red] God be praised!
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 6:04:50 PM EDT
Consider me pre-millenial. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: [B]"4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [i]4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord[/i][/b] However, the important part of the message is neither whether there is a pre or post millenial rapture, or no rapture at all. The point is that ultimately Jesus will return to earth in full glory, and belief in him and his teaching's is key. Other parts of the rapture are open to speculation and debate, but belief in the saving grace of Our Lord is the important part. Honestly, the Bible definitely promises Christ's glorious return, but the quote from 1 Thessalonians and Luke 17:34-36 do tend to cloud the issue. Either way, the Tribulation still happens, the only part up for debate is whether the elect are spared or forced to endure it. There are significant events in the Bible, like previous verses in Luke 17 about Lot coming out of Sodom before it was destroyed by God, or Noah and his family being spared the floods to support the elect being spared such judgements. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 6:14:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 6:26:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: 34 [red][b]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.[/b][/red] 35 [red][b]Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[/b][/red]Eric The(Lengthy)Hun[>]:)]
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Heh, who says the bible condemns homosexuality? [:D]
Link Posted: 5/13/2002 6:42:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2002 6:46:31 PM EDT by Stormbringer]
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
Originally Posted By Bug_splatter: If your not a Christian please do not contaminate this post. Thanks Bug Splatter
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Oops.
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Damn does my posting here somehow sully the pristine condition of this nice christian post?? Awwweeeee Geeeessuuuussss Sorry about that! Edited to add that Rapture is a really catchy tune by Blondie.
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 7:30:19 AM EDT
The rapture is post-trib...G-d always goes through a problem WITH his people. Don't you think Christians will be tested? Or do you think it's all cutsy puffy wave your hands in the air and you're in! [b]Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 [red]And then[/red] shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [red]and then[/red] shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, [red]and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other[/red].[/b]
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:04:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:14:06 AM EDT
Mid or Post
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:18:25 AM EDT
There is still the Amilenialist, Pre-Millenialist, Post Millenialist , position to consider as well as Pre Mid Post Trib of the Pre-Millenialist position All of these positions have some merit..they do not reflect the essentials for salvation..
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:33:11 AM EDT
GODBLESSTEXAS.... I believe that Mt. 24 is refering to the Jews(the elect) who will be gathered by His angels. In the rapture Christs gathers the Church to himself.
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:40:03 AM EDT
Post from 9divdoc -
All of these positions have some merit..they do not reflect the essentials for salvation..
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Amen, Brother! While I love to discuss the end times, and the probable identity of the Anti-Christ, etc., unless and until all of the absolutely crucial requirements for a person's salvation have been met, it is just a game. Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, and continue in His goodness are absolute requirements that will insure you having front row seats at the Second Coming. Without any one of these items, well, I sure [u]hope[/u] that you may still be in the ballgame, but it's anybody's guess. And my guess would be: nope. Close, but no crown! Eric The(O,WhyNotTonight?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:44:11 AM EDT
Must there be a pre-trib rapture?...Tom Stewart [url]http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Prophecy/Must.Pre.Trib.Rapture.html[/url]
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:44:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
Originally posted by liberty86: Don't you think Christians will be tested? Or do you think it's all cutsy puffy wave your hands in the air and you're in!
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No need for sarcasim. Of coarse Christians will/are tested every day. And everyday they/we fail. I want to call everyones attention to these points and I would like a reply on them only. These other verses that are quoted don't really specifically argue the point of pre trib/ post trib, but are descriptions of the tribulation which we all agree will happen.
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the verses I quoted above tell you when.
God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that all English words are not in the Bible. Let's take a look at 1 Thes 4:16-18 in the original Greek language: The word rapture comes from the Latin word rapturo, which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up - it's all the same thing. I stated this earlier in this thread. So lets debate that, no one has debunked it yet. I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
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"caught up" from strongs.... "726 arpazw harpazo har-pad’-zo from a derivative of 138; TDNT-1:472,80; v AV-catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1; 13 1) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away "
[b]Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will be raptured before the tribulation [/b] Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of where believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.
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He told you the time frame earlier, see my post above!
Margaret MacDonald was not the original one to speak about the pre trib rapture in the 1800's. [b]Epharaem the Syrian said in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." [/b] God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," (1 Thes 5:9) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev 3:10)
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Those verses say nothing about escaping the trib. Verse 9 speaks of eternel salvation, Rev. 3:10 speaks of protection, not escape. Again strongs, "Keep", 5083 threw tereo tay-reh’-o from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT-8:140,1174; v AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 8:49:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ELEFTARIA: GODBLESSTEXAS.... I believe that Mt. 24 is refering to the Jews(the elect) who will be gathered by His angels. In the rapture Christs gathers the Church to himself.
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No, this is the elect; Strongs; "1588 eklektov eklektos ek-lek-tos’ from 1586; TDNT-4:181,505; adj AV-elect 16, chosen 7; 23 1) picked out, chosen 1a) chosen by God, 1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ 1a1a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God 1a2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable 1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians " Does ANYONE study in the original languages???
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 9:27:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from 9divdoc -
All of these positions have some merit..they do not reflect the essentials for salvation..
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Amen, Brother! While I love to discuss the end times, and the probable identity of the Anti-Christ, etc., unless and until all of the absolutely crucial requirements for a person's salvation have been met, it is just a game. Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, and continue in His goodness are absolute requirements that will insure you having front row seats at the Second Coming. Without any one of these items, well, I sure [u]hope[/u] that you may still be in the ballgame, but it's anybody's guess. And my guess would be: nope. Close, but no crown! Eric The(O,WhyNotTonight?)Hun[>]:)]
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Good point. Until the end we will not know but the bottom line which Eric and 9divdoc have pointed out the most important thing is to beleive in Christ as your Savior. Well we have heard a lot of opinions and all do have their merrits. Its to bad we never heard from garandman and some his wisdom on this topic. I hope that ilikelegs is right and that there will be a pre trib rapture. This is what I beleive as well but none of us really know. liberty86 You brought up some good points but your last post went by me. I don't know if all of what ilikelegs wrote was truely addressed but you are very knowledgable in your point of view.
1) to seize, carry off by force 2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly 3) to snatch out or away "
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To me this verbage does describe a rapture but as to when its still unclear. All in all I will continue to vigorously buy more ammo. [b]If garandman is out there reading this I still would like to hear his opinion on this matter.[/b] A big thanks to all who debated this topic with the exeption of a few heathens that made their way in. I expected more of them. As for me I don't think the question has been really answered and I don't think it can be 100%.
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 10:50:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2002 11:39:01 AM EDT by ELEFTARIA]
Liberty86.......Eklektos does mean: chosen, picked out. "chosen by God" in the LXX, the Greek translation of the Taanach it is used to refer to the Jews. see : Isaiah 65:9, “MY ELECT” which clearly refers to the Jews, descendents of Jacob. Ps. 105:43 “HIS CHOSEN” which refers to the Jews, the ones he gave the land to. There are two “chosen” people, first were the Jews and then the Christians. Both are refered to in scripture as a peculiar people to The Lord. In Mt. 24 it is clear that Christ is warning the Jews: v 16, “ those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” v 20, “pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath” v 23-24, false christs (false messiahs, Christians have no need to beware of false messiahs, because we know Jesus is the True Messiah. The Jews are the ones who will be looking for their messiah) BTW, ELEFTARIA means LIBERTY in GREEK. I guess you knew that.[0:)]
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 11:11:17 AM EDT
Count me for Pre Trib. Matt 24 is talking about the second coming. Paul introduced the "mystery" of the Catching away of church saints. You don't hear about the rapture until after Paul says. "behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, (die physically) but we shall all be changed (refering the the glorification of all the churches physical bodies at the "catching up" event." Christ was answering in Matt 24 the specific questions that the disciples asked him. "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" They were jews concerned about the fulfillment of all the kingly messianic promises of the Old Testament that Jesus had not fulfilled yet. Matt 24:37  37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. This is NOT the rapture- This is referring to those taken up to judgment as Christ SETS up the kingdom. Only believers will enter the Millenial Kingdom. Survivors of the Tribulation who are not saved will be taken up to judgement. The flood took away all the inhabitants of the earth in judgement, so shall all at the 2nd coming be taken away in judgment. The "they" is what gives it away. Who were the ones eating and drinking and making merry? It sure wasn't Noah and his family was it?!? No, it was all else. More to come if I have time Patsue
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 12:30:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2002 12:58:26 PM EDT by The_Bricklayer]
I believe in the pre-millennial, pre-tribulation rapture - snatching away - of the Church. I don't feel that the variations of interpetations should divide us in any way, the fact still remains that He is coming again! like 9divdoc said its not essential to salvation! here are some articles for further study... [url]http://www.according2prophecy.org/pretri2.html[/url] -Brick
Link Posted: 5/14/2002 12:50:13 PM EDT
[b]I don't even believe in a Millennial Kingdom![/b] Why should there be one? I think what bothered me was reading Hal Lindsey's 'Late Great Planet Earth' and finding out that in the so-called Millennial Kingdom, with Jesus on the Throne of David, there would be children born who would 'fall away' from Jesus! That is heresy! Pure and simple. Correct me on this, if you will. For I have never really given the Millennial Kingdom much thought at all! Eric The(GiveMeThatOldTimeReligion)Hun[>]:)]
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