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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 1/14/2015 12:27:46 PM EST
Quick summary, I've been lifting for almost a year, seeing nice strength gains and doing minimal running. I'm doing a 25k with the GF in May, how do I build strength and build endurance for distance running? I'm just starting my research into this and am familiar with Alex Viada but am curious if anyone here has done something similar successfully or what other information sources I should look at. Thanks.

Background includes competitive distance running in high school/ early college years. I could still run a 5 minute mile right now but aside from a turkey trot 10k, haven't ran over three miles in a year or two.

Lift numbers are as follows. I'm still having newbie gains so would like to get the 1000lb club in the next few months.
Bench: 275
Squat: 285
Dead: 360

Other notes. I was 155# at my best running shape, I'm 205# now.
Link Posted: 1/14/2015 1:03:56 PM EST
Your single best source right now is Alex like you said. I would also look into Tony Cowden, owner of Crossfit Wilmington and Competitive Edge Performance. He's done a great job with his athletes and himself bridging the gap between longer and faster runs and strength work. He's currently powerlifting and usually competes in some longer ish races (half ironman/ironman/half marathon). He's a former SF dude who really knows his conditioning piece. Hit him up.
Link Posted: 1/14/2015 2:58:06 PM EST
It's hard, but possible.


Viada is a good launch point. Keep in mind some lifters have assistance that allows them a bit of leeway and advantage in recovery.

Recovery was my big issue pushing 30+ mile weeks of running and 3-4 days of lifting. I've dropped liftng back to 2 days/wk, which still allows strength to slowly build, while allowing my milage to increase.

Nutrition cannot be over stated.


Link Posted: 1/14/2015 5:42:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Your single best source right now is Alex like you said. I would also look into Tony Cowden, owner of Crossfit Wilmington and Competitive Edge Performance. He's done a great job with his athletes and himself bridging the gap between longer and faster runs and strength work. He's currently powerlifting and usually competes in some longer ish races (half ironman/ironman/half marathon). He's a former SF dude who really knows his conditioning piece. Hit him up.
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Checked out what Tony Cowden had online. Definitely appears knowledgeable in obtaining these kinds of results. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/14/2015 6:07:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By darktide:
It's hard, but possible.


Viada is a good launch point. Keep in mind some lifters have assistance that allows them a bit of leeway and advantage in recovery.

Recovery was my big issue pushing 30+ mile weeks of running and 3-4 days of lifting. I've dropped liftng back to 2 days/wk, which still allows strength to slowly build, while allowing my milage to increase.

Nutrition cannot be over stated.


View Quote


Darktide it sounds like you've been through this before. I recall you mentioning marathon training in another thread. Can you talk from experience about what the actual effects are in terms of the body finding balance between holding muscle and leaning out? There's so much info out there on negative effects of steady state cardio on strength, etc. What's myth from fact?

I assume you don't run and lift on the same day, or if you do it's something like an easy morning run and an evening lifting session or some combination like that?

I've never been forced to focus too hard on nutrition. To split endurance training and strength training I'd imagine you would require a constant high calorie diet, and a large proportion of carbs, while obviously getting your standard protein intake? Does nutrition need to be more precise than that? I do have a basic understanding of nutrient timing. I can average nine hours of sleep if need be as well.

I have a lot I need to read on this subject so forgive the many questions, just want to pick the mind of somebody who's implementing this kind of training. Your advice has been much appreciated.
Link Posted: 1/14/2015 8:03:17 PM EST
Another individual you may want to look at is Anthony Bainbridge, owner/operator of Crossfit Fredericton in Canada. He's currently pulling close to 4x BW and squatting more than 3x BW raw. He doesn't do much running, but his conditioning is off the charts. There for awhile he had one of the fastest 500m row splits in the world for his division. I'm not sure he puts out too many articles, but its worth it to touch base with him and pick his mind if you can.
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 3:03:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2015 3:05:16 PM EST by darktide]
Nutrition: i had to increase carbs by about double. Usually 200 minimal/day. Based on 240lb body weight. And about 5-10g/mile or 40-60g/hr post endurance.


Dosing endurance was the hard part.

Speed work is done directly after lifting. (Tempo, repeats, sprints, etc)

Understanding which systems your endurance training attacks is important and allows to maximize recovery.

I always do a long/slow run the day before squats.

I didn't lose any strength adding running in. I've lost 15-20% or my peak squat strength since adding in cycling, but that's likely transient and related to taxing wrong systems concurrently.

Deadlift has stayed steady in the high 5's/ low 6's
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 6:32:23 PM EST
Find a copy of Robert M. Lyden's book "Distance Running." It's a weighty and long book with a healthy dose of Lydiard/Daws periodization and a shit ton of physiology. Very worthwhile read. Right now, it's all about time on your feet and building your base.

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.
Link Posted: 1/15/2015 7:27:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.
View Quote



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 2:29:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 2:30:48 AM EST by Thunder900]

CrossFit Endurance may be your best bet.

You will have to sacrifice some strength to get endurance, and vice versa. You can't be elite in both, but you can be good in both. It would also help to increase your midterm (5-30 min) and muscular endurance to build the base.

You will not win marathons, or win PL meets, with this protocol, but it will allow you to do well at both of them and make gains in strength endurance and mid term endurance as well.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 8:02:13 AM EST
Has Brian Mackenzie of CF Endurance actually completed an ultra since starting it, or has he only ever DNF'd?

April, 2008: Mackenzie declares that he will attempt to finish in the top 10 at the Badwater Ultramarathon and CF Games that same year.
July, 2008: Mackenzie DNF’s (Did Not Finish) the CrossFit Games.
April, 2009: The “100 Mile Movie” project, which documents Mackenzie’s attempt to complete 100 mile races using CFE ends in failure. Mackenzie does not complete any 100 mile races.
June, 2009: Mackenzie refuses to complete a qualifying race for the Western States 100. He asks permission to skip the qualifier and is denied.
November, 2009: Mackenzie DNF’s the Quad Dipsea (a 28.4 mile ultra)
July, 2010: Mackenzie fails to complete a 41-mile run through Badwater.
June, 2011: Competitor Magazine claims Mackenzie has completed the Badwater Ultra. No record of Mackenzie exist on the Badwater website.
July, 2011: Mackenzie writes an article claiming that peaking for an athletic event is a waste of time. This goes contrary to all exercise science.

I can't take someone coaching something seriously if they can't even complete the races they enter.

Alex Viada is really the only person I know of that's done a lot in both the strength and endurance realms.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 8:03:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 8:03:50 AM EST by MeatBag]
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Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 9:39:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MeatBag:


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.


Damn.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:42:40 AM EST
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Originally Posted By KaiK:


Damn.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KaiK:
Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.


Damn.


Along with running marathon distance and having a 17-1800 three lift total.

At the very least his views and opinions should be studied if one hope to do both.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 10:58:57 AM EST
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Originally Posted By flinch08:


Along with running marathon distance and having a 17-1800 three lift total.

At the very least his views and opinions should be studied if one hope to do both.
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Originally Posted By flinch08:
Originally Posted By KaiK:
Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.


Damn.


Along with running marathon distance and having a 17-1800 three lift total.

At the very least his views and opinions should be studied if one hope to do both.


That's just crazy. He must have some freaking good genes.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:08:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2015 8:37:00 PM EST by Jiro]
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Originally Posted By MeatBag:


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.


ETA: Cleaning this up to keep it simple. Those were his claimed times.

Noted at ProfessionalSoldiers: BTW, from googling Viada, it looks like one or two folks are disputing his run times. All anyone can find online is a 5k he ran in 26 minutes back in 2007. (One race time predictor, using an extrapolation formula, says that someone that runs a 4:15 mile should run a 5k in 14:08. So somewhere along the way he got a lot faster, it would seem).


Look up the cached thread at therunzone ("Is this possible or just bs?")

GratefulCitizen breaks it down well over at Professional Soldiers: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45643
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 8:34:02 PM EST
I can run a 26 minute 5 K and I am slow as hell.
Link Posted: 1/19/2015 9:45:49 PM EST
I've watched Viada, with my own two eyes, lift and I've seen him sprint and do some shorter runs. He's a freak on a bike as well. He's challenged the naysayers to put their money where their mouth is and no one wants to take him up on it. I've also personally seen what he's willing to do to his body to push the limits. He uses himself as a test dummy for all his training guidelines, and has for years, literally destroying himself to try new shit. He's legit.

Like I said, look into Viada's stuff if you want to learn how to work both at the same time. Tony Cowden, that I mentioned before, runs a lot of similar style programming. He himself totaled ~1400lbs raw at 220 and then turned around and did an Ironman in the Clydesdale division in 14:XX...on a broken foot. Broke the foot bad enough coming out of the swim that it would later be put in a cast, and then completely the bike in mid 6hrs before hobbling on a broken foot across the line. Absent the broken foot, he probably would have finished in close to sub 12hrs, after a full meet.

The programming works.
Link Posted: 1/20/2015 7:44:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/20/2015 7:46:07 PM EST by MeatBag]
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Originally Posted By Jiro:


ETA: Cleaning this up to keep it simple. Those were his claimed times.



Look up the cached thread at therunzone ("Is this possible or just bs?")

GratefulCitizen breaks it down well over at Professional Soldiers: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45643
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jiro:
Originally Posted By MeatBag:
Originally Posted By BarsandBullets:
Originally Posted By Jiro:

Viada? Uh... I'd steer clear of anything having to do with that guy. At least running-related.



I find that kind of funny. Why do you say that?


Same.

He's like 220lbs and runs somewhere around a 4:00 mile.


ETA: Cleaning this up to keep it simple. Those were his claimed times.

Noted at ProfessionalSoldiers: BTW, from googling Viada, it looks like one or two folks are disputing his run times. All anyone can find online is a 5k he ran in 26 minutes back in 2007. (One race time predictor, using an extrapolation formula, says that someone that runs a 4:15 mile should run a 5k in 14:08. So somewhere along the way he got a lot faster, it would seem).


Look up the cached thread at therunzone ("Is this possible or just bs?")

GratefulCitizen breaks it down well over at Professional Soldiers: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45643


You can find one of his official Ironman times here. Search for Viada.

I would like to see video of him doing a mile, just because it would be insane to see a guy that size running fast. I know I've read that he's said that short distance running has always been what he was naturally the best at.

I can definitely understand why people wouldn't believe him.
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