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Posted: 4/27/2001 4:17:45 PM EDT
Does anybody know if someone other than ZM Weapons makes a post ban folding stock? Are they harder to use without the pistol grip? Thanks

Link Posted: 4/27/2001 4:37:31 PM EDT
I think if it worked they would show a picture with the lower. You can't tell what it would look like.
Link Posted: 4/27/2001 4:41:37 PM EDT
Correct me if I am wrong but could'nt you permanently fix a mag to the lower and then you could put what ever "evil" things you want. After all if can't be an assault weapon if it can't accepy detachable mags
Link Posted: 4/27/2001 4:58:54 PM EDT
Thats the way I understand it, you could have a folding stock if the mag was locked but how would you permanently attach the mag? Can it just be bolted on with something like this [url]http://www.sportingconversions.com/current.html[/url] or do you need to weld it. In any case a permanently attached mag would make it pretty hard to load wouldn't it?
Link Posted: 4/27/2001 5:00:44 PM EDT
my under-standing is(as limited as it is)that the folding stock in and of it's self is outlawed for postban firearms.if it wasn't legal to have on the firearm when it left the factory then all the changing of this part and that is moot.personally i don't care what you do to a post ban,that's your business,not mine.all this talk of lets fix the mag or take the pistol grip off and add a folding stock is something i wouldn't want to try before a judge.buy a preban and sleep well at night.mmk
Link Posted: 4/27/2001 5:03:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/27/2001 5:05:53 PM EDT
The best thing to do would be to write the BATF. That way you would have it on paper.  
Link Posted: 4/27/2001 5:13:07 PM EDT
It's my understanding that a bar/attachment of some type arcs around and touches the pistol grip making it by technicality a thumbhole stock. That's the only way I've ever seen a postban z-m with a folder. That was for sale several days ago on bighammer.
I'd like to know if anyone knows where I can get a good folder for my pre-ban. If so link me or if your selling one email me and consider it pending sale.

Link Posted: 4/27/2001 5:24:43 PM EDT
got this here  

Sincerely yours,
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

The July, 1989 ATF Report, which explains why ATF decided that military style semi-auto rifles were "unsporting" and thus prohibited from importation (for sale to civilians, anyway), lists the criteria they considered important:
1. "Military configuration", which consists of: accepting a detachable magazine, having a folding or telescoping stock, having a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the stock, ability to accept a bayonet, having a flash suppressor, having a bipod, having a grenade launcher, and having night sights.
2. Whether the gun is a semiautomatic version of a machine gun.
3. Whether the rifle is chambered for a cartridge shorter than 2.25 inches.

The fact that it has or doesn't have a particular feature will not determine its suitability for import. The report says the rifle must be judged in its totality to see if it is more like a sporting rifle type, or a semiautomatic assault weapon type. While the report does not include threaded muzzles as a feature of the semiautomatic assault weapon type (which is what they were banning, a type, not just particular rifles, that individually might have a sporting use) that is clearly a no-no as of this instant, at least on rifles using a detachable magazine. Likewise the report indicates that the semiautomatic assault weapon type uses a detachable magazine, however ATF has issued decrees related to the SKS with fixed magazine, as well as with a detachable magazine.

From the above, and from what semiautomatic rifles allowed for import actually look like, the following general rules can be gleaned:
If the gun is a rifle of the sort subject to sec. 922(r) (imported, semi-auto) that accepts a detachable magazine it may not have:
* pistol grip (it may have a thumbhole stock)
* flash hider or threaded muzzle (a sporting muzzle brake is OK)
* bipod (a sporting bipod is probably OK, one that clamps on, or
attaches by a swivel stud, not permanently attached to the gun)
* bayonet lug
* folding or collapsing stock
* night sights (luminescent sights)
* grenade launcher
* threaded muzzle (except permanently covered by a nut, or something similar)
If the rifle does not accept a detachable magazine (for instance an SKS) it is subject to the above restrictions, except that it can have the bayonet lug intact on the gun, but not the bayonet. It is also OK for it to have a threaded muzzle.

Link Posted: 4/27/2001 5:25:16 PM EDT
Of course the above does not help to explain the variation in what ATF has allowed. Yugoslav made M70 AK style rifles caught in Customs by the 1989 ban were allowed in (renamed M90) with threaded muzzles with flash hiders, with the flash hider retaining pin fixed in place. The bayonet lug was removed, and the gun was supplied with a rather unusable thumbhole stock. Norinco AK74 style rifles in .223 caliber also apparently caught in Customs were allowed in with an AK74 muzzle brake on a threaded muzzle, with the spring loaded retaining pin fully functional. Galil AR rifles, in .223 caliber, apparently trapped in Customs, were allowed in with a heinous thumbhole stock, and a thread protector covering the muzzle threads, not welded, soldered, glued or mechanically attached to the gun in any way. On the other hand, some Norinco MAK-90 rifles had part of the rear of the receiver cut away, so as to make it hard for the (stamped) receiver to support a conventional shoulder stock, should the thumbhole stock be removed, to be replaced with a regular AKM stock set. Hungarian AKM rifles were not so altered, nor were other Norinco rifles.

Thus, if the gun came with a thumbhole stock it is unlikely it is legal to remove that and replace it with a pistol grip and shoulder stock set you bought at a gun show or through Shotgun News. If the rifle were importable in that configuraiton, the importer would have brought the gun in that way. This law only prohibits assembly, nothing prohibits you from buying that stock set for your thumbhole MAK-90 and squirreling it away for a rainy day, or when saner heads prevail and this sort of BS is repealed.

Additionally, in November, 1997, the Clinton administration decided to suspend, for 120 days, the import of even "sporterized" semi-auto rifles, altered to meet the criteria ATF developed after its 1989 study. The suspension is supposed to give ATF time to come with new definitions of sport, and will likely result in a total prohibition on the import of semi-automatic rifles.

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