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Posted: 7/22/2013 8:08:14 AM EST
"Offline Catholics better get wired. Otherwise, they’re missing an easy way to cut their potential time in Purgatory

The announcement spread around the world as fast as a tweet: The Vatican court responsible for forgiving sins ruled that indulgences may be granted to those who follow the “rites and pious exercises” via the Pope’s Twitter account in Rio de Janeiro during World Youth Day (as well as to those who actually attend the event). The court, known as the Sacred Apostolic Penitentiary, explained that the papal offer will also cover television, radio and other social media."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2013/07/18/pope-francis-pontifex-offers-tweeting-out-of-purgatory/
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:09:14 AM EST
[#1]
No, that's not what it meant.

You can't just "follow". You actually have to do religious stuff.

Also, indulgences don't get you out of hell.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:09:34 AM EST
[#2]
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:09:41 AM EST
[#3]
Martin Luther ain't gonna like that.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:10:19 AM EST
[#4]
I might have to set up a twitter account.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:12:00 AM EST
[#5]
#getoutofhellfreecard
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:13:06 AM EST
[#6]
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:13:06 AM EST
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"
View Quote



You can't buy an indulgence with money.

You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.

And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:47:56 AM EST
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



You can't buy an indulgence with money.

You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.

And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"



You can't buy an indulgence with money.

You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.

And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.



Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:49:20 AM EST
[#9]
Still not signing up for that fag site.  Rather spend extra time in hell.

#Breaksoverbackonyourheads
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:50:21 AM EST
[#10]
edit: dumb comment removed
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:51:35 AM EST
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"



You can't buy an indulgence with money.

You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.

And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.



Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.


Sure he did.

I've been a Catholic for 31 years and I've never personally seen or heard of an indulgence being sold for money.

When I lived in Alabama I was told at least 4 times that somebody's pastor bought one though.

It's weird that a real Catholic can't find one for sale, but a Prod pastor can seem to find them everywhere. Funny that.

ETA: No idea why you would pay money for one. They're not exactly difficult to get. It's not like every indulgence granting thing is equal to the Way of St. James or something.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:52:57 AM EST
[#12]
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:54:10 AM EST
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No, that's not what it meant.

You can't just "follow". You actually have to do religious stuff.

Also, indulgences don't get you out of hell.
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Quoted:
No, that's not what it meant.

You can't just "follow". You actually have to do religious stuff.

Also, indulgences don't get you out of hell.


Yeah.  The article pretty much says this...
Some conditions, however, will apply: To obtain indulgences over the Internet or otherwise, believers must first confess their sins, offer prayers and attend Mass.

“You can’t obtain indulgences like getting a coffee from a vending machine,” Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli, head of the Pontifical Council for Social Communication, told the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera.


Pretty much it sounds like they're offering an alternative to confessing in front of a priest.  Instead, one can confess more anonymously.

I imagine it's to draw more Catholics back, say those who are fearful of the same of having to confess etc.

The article has nothing to do with money. He is just saying that if a Catholic cannot make it to the service in person, following it on TV or via Twitter is the same thing. Seems like a pretty cool Pope, as Pope's go.

O hell, my family believed that anyway.  Mom does that when she's too sick to go to church.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 8:58:57 AM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yeah.  The article pretty much says this...


Pretty much it sounds like they're offering an alternative to confessing in front of a priest.  Instead, one can confess more anonymously.

I imagine it's to draw more Catholics back, say those who are fearful of the same of having to confess etc.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
No, that's not what it meant.

You can't just "follow". You actually have to do religious stuff.

Also, indulgences don't get you out of hell.


Yeah.  The article pretty much says this...
Some conditions, however, will apply: To obtain indulgences over the Internet or otherwise, believers must first confess their sins, offer prayers and attend Mass.

“You can’t obtain indulgences like getting a coffee from a vending machine,” Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli, head of the Pontifical Council for Social Communication, told the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera.


Pretty much it sounds like they're offering an alternative to confessing in front of a priest.  Instead, one can confess more anonymously.

I imagine it's to draw more Catholics back, say those who are fearful of the same of having to confess etc.


No, you still have to confess sins to a Priest.

Indulgences do not forgive sins. They relieve the punishment for sins.

ETA: Also, confession is anonymous. And if your uncomfortable with your priest, for some reason, then just go to another parish. Never figured out why some people are so afraid of confession. As any priest will say, whatever you're about to confess they've already heard it 100 times from other people. Your sins are rarely unique.

ETA2: Forgot to say that gaining an indulgence is also directly connected to going to confession, and some other stuff.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:01:50 AM EST
[#15]
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Quoted:


Sure he did.

I've been a Catholic for 31 years and I've never personally seen or heard of an indulgence being sold for money.

When I lived in Alabama I was told at least 4 times that somebody's pastor bought one though.

It's weird that a real Catholic can't find one for sale, but a Prod pastor can seem to find them everywhere. Funny that.

ETA: No idea why you would pay money for one. They're not exactly difficult to get. It's not like every indulgence granting thing is equal to the Way of St. James or something.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"



You can't buy an indulgence with money.

You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.

And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.



Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.


Sure he did.

I've been a Catholic for 31 years and I've never personally seen or heard of an indulgence being sold for money.

When I lived in Alabama I was told at least 4 times that somebody's pastor bought one though.

It's weird that a real Catholic can't find one for sale, but a Prod pastor can seem to find them everywhere. Funny that.

ETA: No idea why you would pay money for one. They're not exactly difficult to get. It's not like every indulgence granting thing is equal to the Way of St. James or something.



uh-huh.   btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:08:20 AM EST
[#16]
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Quoted:



uh-huh.   btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"



You can't buy an indulgence with money.

You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.

And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.



Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.


Sure he did.

I've been a Catholic for 31 years and I've never personally seen or heard of an indulgence being sold for money.

When I lived in Alabama I was told at least 4 times that somebody's pastor bought one though.

It's weird that a real Catholic can't find one for sale, but a Prod pastor can seem to find them everywhere. Funny that.

ETA: No idea why you would pay money for one. They're not exactly difficult to get. It's not like every indulgence granting thing is equal to the Way of St. James or something.



uh-huh.   btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.


Here's the latest document on such indulgences: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

Or just start with Thomas Aquinas. I don't really enjoy getting into indepth theological debates that we settled many hundreds of years ago with the "Mah paster told me differen'" crowd. Or go ask an Apologist. They enjoy that shit for some reason.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:11:08 AM EST
[#17]
A Bitcoin in the coffer rings…
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:12:08 AM EST
[#18]


Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did.

Thanks.  
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:17:11 AM EST
[#19]
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Quoted:


Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did.

Thanks.  
View Quote



This! When will Christians stop bashing Christians?

Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:17:59 AM EST
[#20]
Religion of peace?
FBHO?
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:18:57 AM EST
[#21]
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:19:11 AM EST
[#22]
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Quoted:

This! When will Christians stop bashing Christians?

View Quote


Well doctrinally there are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants(In my case a Lutheran). Heated debates we have these days is better then the all out wars of the past I would say.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:19:27 AM EST
[#23]
Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.

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Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"
View Quote


Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:20:02 AM EST
[#24]
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Quoted:


Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did.

Thanks.  
View Quote


Yup.

I'll take any mention of 'trinity' or 'incarnation' while gwitness is scouring the scripture for prooftexts.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:22:59 AM EST
[#25]
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Quoted:


Well doctrinally there are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants(In my case a Lutheran). Heated debates we have these days is better then the all out wars of the past I would say.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

This! When will Christians stop bashing Christians?



Well doctrinally there are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants(In my case a Lutheran). Heated debates we have these days is better then the all out wars of the past I would say.



Hey, I'm all for discussion & debate! But in the end we are all followers of Christ.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:23:43 AM EST
[#26]
Trolls are feeding.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:24:11 AM EST
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.



Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.
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Quoted:
Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.

Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"


Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.



I believe even blessing yourself with Holy Water, also.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:24:32 AM EST
[#28]
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Quoted:
btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.
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Quoted:
btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.


As much as I hesitate to dispute this sort of thing in an obvious troll thread, here goes:

"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."

Matthew 12:32


Why Jesus would speak in these terms if the forgiveness of sins didn't extend past the point of physical death is very difficult to understand.

And:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

1 Corinthians 3:11-15


First Corinthians is the first of all the New Testament writings, so it's clear that this belief dates back to earliest days of the Church.

But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:26:00 AM EST
[#29]
Martin Luther is not amused by these shenanigans.

Eta:beat to the joke by a mile.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:27:24 AM EST
[#30]
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Quoted:
Martin Luther is not amused by these shenanigans.
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Indulgences are the least of Martin Luther's concerns where he is right now....
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:38:03 AM EST
[#31]
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Quoted:


Indulgences are the least of Martin Luther's concerns where he is right now....
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Martin Luther is not amused by these shenanigans.


Indulgences are the least of Martin Luther's concerns where he is right now....


Lawl
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:40:06 AM EST
[#32]
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Quoted:
The article has nothing to do with money. He is just saying that if a Catholic cannot make it to the service in person, following it on TV or via Twitter is the same thing. Seems like a pretty cool Pope, as Pope's go.  
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I thought
The article has nothing to do with money. He is just saying that if a Catholic cannot make it to the service in person, following it on TV or via Twitter is the same thing. Seems like a pretty cool Pope, as Pope's go.  



this
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:42:51 AM EST
[#33]
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But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  
View Quote


faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:47:09 AM EST
[#34]
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faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM
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Quoted:

But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  


faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:48:57 AM EST
[#35]
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Quoted:


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
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But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  


faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.


well said
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:49:42 AM EST
[#36]
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Quoted:


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
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But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  


faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.


Of course you would say that, having read Aquinas.  
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:50:21 AM EST
[#37]


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uh-huh.   btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.
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Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:


I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"



You can't buy an indulgence with money.





You actually have to do stuff, like do a pilgrimage, or a set of prayers.





And they don't get you out of hell. It's a purgatory thing.

Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.






Sure he did.





I've been a Catholic for 31 years and I've never personally seen or heard of an indulgence being sold for money.





When I lived in Alabama I was told at least 4 times that somebody's pastor bought one though.





It's weird that a real Catholic can't find one for sale, but a Prod pastor can seem to find them everywhere. Funny that.





ETA: No idea why you would pay money for one. They're not exactly difficult to get. It's not like every indulgence granting thing is equal to the Way of St. James or something.

uh-huh.   btw..can you show me where [in the Bible] it is shown that an indulgence can get one out of purgatory?.......heck..I'll take any mention of purgatory for that matter.
CHRISTIAN FIGHT! CHRISTIAN FIGHT! CHRISTIAN FIGHT!



Oh, and in my 30 years...with the vast majority of my family members being catholic, this is the first time I've ever even heard of an indulgence.



Must be a pretty under the table operation.





 
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 9:54:31 AM EST
[#38]
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Hey, I'm all for discussion & debate! But in the end we are all followers of Christ.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

This! When will Christians stop bashing Christians?



Well doctrinally there are some major differences between Catholics and Protestants(In my case a Lutheran). Heated debates we have these days is better then the all out wars of the past I would say.



Hey, I'm all for discussion & debate! But in the end we are all followers of Christ.


Yes, we all follow Christ. Get outside to things like 7th Day Adventist or Mormonism and you fall outside what I consider a true follower of Christ.
Don't mis understand me though, I am a Evangelistic Lutheran. Doctrinally I disagree on the following: the papacy, the nature and role of Mary, invocation of the saints, the doctrine of purgatory, transubstantiation, use of the Apocrypha and tradition as sources of doctrine, and justification through a combination of faith in Christ and good works.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:00:44 AM EST
[#39]
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Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.
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Quoted:
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But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  


faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.


I would say that it does sum it up in a short manner. But here I was trying to say there is not reason for us to discuss it though and I am dragging myself into something I should stay out of I think.

Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:02:00 AM EST
[#40]
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I would say that it does sum it up in a short manner. *snip*

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But I'm not offering this to debate with the non-Catholics, simply to point out that their claim that 'It's not in the Bible!' is demonstrably false.  


faith versus works. If in the last couple hundred years we couldn't settle it, we won't figure it out on ARFCOM


Somebody who thinks it is "faith versus works" shows they fundamentally do not understand the argument.


I would say that it does sum it up in a short manner. *snip*




Not really, no.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:11:51 AM EST
[#41]
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Not really, no.
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So what is the core differences in the Doctrine of the Catholic Church versus most Protestants?
I mean, it is my day off, I can have a friendly discussion on this if you want.


Never mind, I just read again where you said you don't want to discuss it in an earlier post you made.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:16:06 AM EST
[#42]
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This! When will Christians stop bashing Christians?

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Looks like I am out of a job.


Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:19:29 AM EST
[#43]
Indulgences usually follow the same formula.  1) they require a specific pious action.  2) they require that the person who does the action be in a state of grace, and receive the sacraments of communion and reconciliation within a prescribed period (couple days), and be free of any desire to sin.  The indulgence removes the temporal punishment from there previous sins.



So first of all, they are already in a state of grace - they are already going to Heaven.  2) be free from the desire to sin is a step taller than the empire state building. 3) temporal punishment issue means that while the prior sins were already forgiven, the would be no "time" (temporal) in purgatory to wash clean the stain of that sin.  I guess that means stains (any imperfections), would just magically disappear, rather than needing time to be healed.



For Catholics, purgatory is part of Heaven.  However, we feel that we can require some time to become cleansed from the effects of our sinful lives (sins are already forgiven, but the damage to our soul is not instantly and automatically healed).  Think of it as the outdoor shower before you enter the house from the pool.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:19:53 AM EST
[#44]
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Quoted:
Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.



Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.
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Quoted:
Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.

Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"


Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.



Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is.  and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:20:50 AM EST
[#45]
Yawn, that's not how indulgences work. Please take 5 minutes to learn the truth before bashing someone's religion.

If you still think it's silly, fine, we can discuss it.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:20:57 AM EST
[#46]
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Yup.

I'll take any mention of 'trinity' or 'incarnation' while gwitness is scouring the scripture for prooftexts.
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Spade, I would have wasted way too many words and not said it as well as you did.

Thanks.  


Yup.

I'll take any mention of 'trinity' or 'incarnation' while gwitness is scouring the scripture for prooftexts.


"In the beginning God said let us......"
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:22:49 AM EST
[#47]
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Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is.  and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory.
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Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.

Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"


Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.



Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is.  and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory.


You read the Summa that quickly?
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:24:49 AM EST
[#48]
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Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.
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I'll take that bet. I'm not far from you, please give me the info + how much you'd like to bet.
Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:25:27 AM EST
[#49]
I would like the information on where, when, and from whom your pastor "bought" an indulgence.  Please PM me with the info.

I will get this to my Bishop.  This is a serious matter, as the church most certainly does not "sell" indulgences and has not for centuries.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is.  and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Misleading title is misleading.  Indulgences do not get you out of Hell.

Quoted:
I thought the Catholic Church stopped selling "indulgences"


Yes, the Church stopped selling them.  However, you can still obtain indulgences by doing other things, such as reading the Bible or praying the Rosary.



Still missing the point......define what an indulgence is.  and I want a biblical reference to indulgences and purgatory.

Link Posted: 7/22/2013 10:26:32 AM EST
[#50]

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Quoted:
Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.
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Wanna bet?    I know for a fact..at least one local church was selling them....as our Pastor bought one.




Are you sure it wasn't a Carbon Offset?





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