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Posted: 4/15/2008 8:43:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2008 6:21:14 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:47:00 AM EDT
Yeah, far better that a child rapist goes free than 415 children are deprived of their parents.

The officials went in with only one phone call and now they cannot find the teen. What is damning is they have not isolated the witnesses/victims.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:49:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2008 8:50:11 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

What is damning is they have not isolated the witnesses/victims.


I THINK the mothers have now been separated from their children.



5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:51:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2008 5:09:42 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
One day the state will pay huge money to settle the legal claims.

5sub

Was not hard to call this one even back on 4/15/09.

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:52:51 AM EDT
Hmm...
Texas and allegations of child abuse.
I seem to remember the last time this made headlines this big.
Thier lucky thier not extra crispy at this point.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:52:58 AM EDT
A Girl's Escape From Polygamy

Polygamy is unjust.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:53:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
One day the state will pay huge money to settle the legal claims. I say "settle" as the state won't dare go to court.


Double edged sword here. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:54:02 AM EDT
Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:24 AM
By Don Teague, NBC News Correspondent

SAN ANGELO, Texas – For nearly two weeks, journalists covering the removal of children from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound, known as the YFZ Ranch, have had access to just one side of the story.

During the initial raid, the men who live on the ranch weren’t allowed to leave, and the women who had been removed with their children were sequestered away in shelters.

That gave state officials the advantage of presenting their allegations of physical and sexual abuse of children on the ranch to the public with little chance for rebuttal except through church lawyers.

Well, the situation changed dramatically last night, when Texas Child Protective Services and police officers separated dozens of mothers from their children, keeping custody of the children and sending the women back to the ranch. (Some may have chosen to go to a battered women’s shelter, according to a CPS official.)

Immediately after the women went home, I received a call on my cell phone from a spokesman for the family.

"They’re all back at the ranch," he told me. "They want to talk."

"When?" I asked.

"As soon as you can get here," he said.

So I dropped everything, and rushed to the ranch, along with more than a dozen other reporters who had received a similar call.

Speaking out
After a short wait at the main gate (where construction is almost complete on an ominous looking guard tower), we were all allowed in to the ranch living area. Homes and log-sided dormitories sat on a gentle knoll, separated by a wide, well maintained road.

Two dozen or more women wearing prairie-style dresses were waiting for us outside of one of the buildings.

I’m posting some of their interviews here because I want you to hear from these women for yourselves.

VIDEO: 'They totally lied' - mothers in ranch raid speak out
fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/15/892513.aspx

They all had similar stories (so similar that some reporters suggested they were pre-rehearsed).

In short, the women are heartbroken at having had their children taken away. They’re angry at the government for doing so, and for allegedly tricking them into returning to the ranch Monday without their children.

They said the living conditions in the shelter were cramped and dirty, but they also said many of the volunteers and even state workers who cared for them were warm, loving people. They worry they’ll never see their children again, and depending on the outcome of custody hearings on Thursday, they may be right.

They all denied their children were sexually or physically abused. They said all women are free to leave the ranch anytime they wish. And, they suspect the phone call from a 16-year-old mother alleging abuse was a hoax from outside the compound.

One of the women, Marie, wanted to make sure to have the opportunity to say she forgives the people who have torn her family apart.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:54:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Turret-Buster:
Hmm...
Texas and allegations of child abuse.
I seem to remember the last time this made headlines this big.
Thier lucky thier not extra crispy at this point.



That is WACO for you slow folk.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:54:08 AM EDT
At least they didn't call in the ATF for the raid.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:55:53 AM EDT
It is pretty sad they can confiscate hundreds of kids without anything.


Its akin, to me anyways, of CPS taking away everyones kids in a neighborhood just because one kid called and said he/she was being abused. They then go house to house down the street and take everyones kids.


One SUPPOSED person saying they are being abused shouldnt justify the taking of hundreds of OTHER families kids [just because they live in the same area]. Each should have their own case.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:56:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2008 8:56:33 AM EDT by PBIR]
I agree. Of course we're against child abuse but I haven't seen any proof that occurred at the compound. All I do know is dozens if not hundreds of families have been torn apart. It appears to be very poor handling on TX's part to date.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:56:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

What is damning is they have not isolated the witnesses/victims.


I THINK the mothers have now been separated from their children.



5sub




In short, the women are heartbroken at having had their children taken away. They’re angry at the government for doing so, and for allegedly tricking them into returning to the ranch Monday without their children


Yes.....now separated.

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:56:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
One day the state will pay huge money to settle the legal claims. I say "settle" as the state won't dare go to court.

5sub


Yep. It's a clusterfuck for sure. They'll bind together and in the end the whole thing will fall through due to "insufficient evidence" and a lack of witnesses. By that time though, they know probably about half the kids will be absorbed in the foster system, where some of them will live equally miserable lives.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:56:53 AM EDT
People will trip over themselves in a rush to "save the children"
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 8:58:17 AM EDT
In another article I read the men in the compound had offered to leave so the women and children could come back and the investigation finished at the compound.

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:00:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigW1stCav:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
One day the state will pay huge money to settle the legal claims. I say "settle" as the state won't dare go to court.

5sub


Yep. It's a clusterfuck for sure. They'll bind together and in the end the whole thing will fall through due to "insufficient evidence" and a lack of witnesses. By that time though, they know probably about half the kids will be absorbed in the foster system, where some of them will live equally miserable lives.


Agreed with sadness.

I expect that absent the "caller" all evidence collected will eventually be thrown out leaving the state with no case.

Meanwhile, destruction of the children's lives will continue.

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:00:33 AM EDT
According to the news this morning they are trying to work out a way to hold all the custody hearings in a single day. Either all the kids or going home that day or it is going to be one of the largest clusterfuck/kangaroo court proceedings in the history of our country.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:01:06 AM EDT
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:02:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?


Perhaps begin with identifying the caller and checking the accuracy of her story ??

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:02:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Metalrain:
At least they didn't call in the ATF for the raid.


then they woulda shot the dogs.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:02:50 AM EDT
Isn't it really to early to assume? No one knows that the investigators know or don't know. Alot of the times they don't release details of the investigations until they have things sorted out. Not taking up for them or saying they're right. Just saying its a little early to assume things especially since no one here was doing the investigating.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:03:38 AM EDT
MRW,
These things are troubling, one way or another someone personal rights are going to

get stomped. It seems as the Government grows so does it's appetite for liberty.

There is no doubt that crimes have been committed and whether it be immoral

religious zealots, bleeding heart do-gooders or a power hungry government.

We as a society has to stand strong behind the belief that all three are equally

offensive and dangerous.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:03:39 AM EDT
What happens if someone pulls a prank on me, and calls the law, says, i'm mistreating or abuseing my children? what happens then?

this could have started as a joke. or the.gov could have just made it up.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:04:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

What is damning is they have not isolated the witnesses/victims.


I THINK the mothers have now been separated from their children.



5sub


They interviewed a mother on the news this am. When they(.gov) got done inteviewing her child she went to give him a hug and he told her she can't do that because it's child abuse
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:05:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?



They could interview the caller FIRST, and maybe even interview other kids there to get an idea of whats going on there. But for that to happen they would first need to even find the supposed caller which they havent. All they have to go on at this point is a single call.

They got a call, and took EVERYONE's kids away.

Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:06:14 AM EDT
This whole thing stinks.

Wife and I are at ends of it, she's "protect the children!" I'm "leave people alone!".

O'really was spouting off last night bought 14 pregnant kids. My wife went nut's, then I asked her how many pregnant teens are at the local High School? and if we should raid it to?

I slept alone last night.

If kids are being abused they MUST be protected. But equally we MUST protect those we don't like/agree/approve/like from the .Gov and violation of the the 1st Amendment.

Some one said double edged sword, this is true.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:07:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HughTurk:
MRW,
These things are troubling, one way or another someone personal rights are going to

get stomped.
........ immoral religious zealots, bleeding heart do-gooders or a power hungry government.

We as a society has to stand strong behind the belief that all three are equally

offensive and dangerous.


Edited to the point where I agree.

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:07:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BadassWeakling:
A Girl's Escape From Polygamy

Polygamy is unjust.



The story in the link you provide is about a 13 yo girl who was forced into marriage. Are you suggesting that Polygamists are the only group of people to promote underage marriage?

Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:08:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?


Perhaps begin with identifying the caller and checking the accuracy of her story ??

5sub



+1
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:08:25 AM EDT
Did anyone see the reporter asking if children were being "spiritually married" to men? The women were stone silent.

When is it correct to allow this to continue after receiving ONE phone call?

Sure, the State screwed up by not keeping the children seperate from each other and to the mothers.

Warren Jeffs had been excommunicating boys on the wholesale for ANY infraction, thereby assuring a female bias in his favor.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:09:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BadassWeakling:

Polygamy is unjust.




How so?
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:11:34 AM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Did anyone see the reporter asking if children were being "spiritually married" to men? The women were stone silent.

When is it correct to allow this to continue after receiving ONE phone call?

Sure, the State screwed up by not keeping the children seperate from each other and to the mothers.

Warren Jeffs had been excommunicating boys on the wholesale for ANY infraction, thereby assuring a female bias in his favor.


Quoted for truth.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:11:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?


maybe they could have tried to verify through other sources what was going on? I thought I'd read somewhere that the state had someone on the inside? you know this seems kind of like a no-knock raid based on a non-credible CI
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:14:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By BadassWeakling:

Polygamy is unjust.




How so?


The polygamy practiced by the FLDS is more than unjust, it is child rape in all criminal definitions.

FLDS USED to be arranged marriage at 16-18 years of age. Warren Jeffs had problems with young women running away with young men of similar age. To stop this, he instituited harsh rules on teen boys where they could be excommunicated at the first infraction, say listening to music or passing notes to girls. The young ladies would be counseled by their parents.

Soon, it became certain that Jeffs was losing control so he lowered the age of the perverse "spiritual marriage" to as young as 12 or when the girl started mensurating. And the "marriage" was basically rape at an altar in the temple.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:17:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fourays2:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?


maybe they could have tried to verify through other sources what was going on? I thought I'd read somewhere that the state had someone on the inside? you know this seems kind of like a no-knock raid based on a non-credible possibly non-existant CI




5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:28:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2008 9:29:25 AM EDT by Bhart89]

I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.


While I'm not defending (well maybe I am) Warren Jeffs, words mean things and the above statement is factually incorrect.

If the girls were marrying against their will (and I'm not talking about the "they aren't old enough to give legal consent) then I have a problem with what the group was doing. But I find it more egregious that the gov't would come in a remove all the women/children against their will on the basis of a tip that the informant cannot be located on.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:37:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:39:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
You guys do realize they had other affidavits from witnesses in addition to the call?

This was not all brought on by one phone call.
I dont think they do. Everyone seems to be forgetting that they keep alot of stuff secret until the investigation is over.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:46:08 AM EDT

The cops did the right thing.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:47:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
Yeah, far better that a child rapist goes free than 415 children are deprived of their parents.

The officials went in with only one phone call and now they cannot find the teen. What is damning is they have not isolated the witnesses/victims.




"If this guy law saves just one child....."

Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:50:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?



There was no girl who called. It was faked.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:52:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Primos:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?



There was no girl who called. It was faked.


And your source?
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:53:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2008 9:53:34 AM EDT by Primos]

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Primos:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?



There was no girl who called. It was faked.


And your source?


My source? How about the folks who actually have the burden of proof on them to produce a real source. Where's their source? It's still some 'anonymous' phone call.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:53:58 AM EDT
If homosexuality is "OK" then you have no leg to stand on to say there is something wrong with polygamy, slippery slope it's discrimination on a "lifestyle" they will clean up in court.


JMO


Kid touchers should be killed, but that's just what .gov calls any one they want to burn up or get rid of.

At this point if i see a story about a religious sect that has "child abuse" allegations against it I'm suspect of what is going on.

Think about it, "child abuse" is an air tight way to garner public support and not have to explain your self, it is the new search warrant.




Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:54:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swede1986:
The cops did the right thing.


Swede,

we just don't know that to be true as yet. (However, we DO KNOW the state has yet to produce the complainant.)

5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:55:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Thatmanuhate:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
You guys do realize they had other affidavits from witnesses in addition to the call?

This was not all brought on by one phone call.
I dont think they do. Everyone seems to be forgetting that they keep alot of stuff secret until the investigation is over.



Does that still warrant taking all the kids? You're right in that we dont know everything but the shit would have to be beyond extremely bad to warrant taking every single kid out of there. This sounds like they got some info on some kids, and so decided to take all the kids. Im sure there are families there who dont have anything to do with underage marriage besides living on the same plot of land.

I still think its akin to them going house to house and taking all the kids in the neighborhood because a few are getting molested down the street.

Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:58:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Primos:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By Primos:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
For all you critics, what was Texas supposed to do? They had a girl call in and say that not only had she been raped, but that the cult was systematically raping other young girls as well. I don't see how you can justify not removing the children in those circumstances - especially when the cult leader is a convicted pedophile.

Tell me, what was Texas suppossed to do?



There was no girl who called. It was faked.


And your source?


My source? How about the folks who actually have the burden of proof on them to produce a real source. Where's their source? It's still some 'anonymous' phone call.


You must not be familiar with our form of law enforcement. Discovery is sealed until arraingment. That the investigation is ongoing, investigation is still sealed.

They HAVE a warrant and the judge was given copies of the tapes of the girl's calls. Remember, the judge is an independent voice of the people and he alone gives the approval or denial. He does NOT have to reveal ANYTHING to ANYONE until the grand jury's return.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:59:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By swede1986:
The cops did the right thing.


Swede,

we just don't know that to be true as yet. (However, we DO KNOW the state has yet to produce the complainant.)

5sub


If the cops get a call from a girl saying she and other girls are being raped by a cult with a history of pedophilia, I think the cops should investigate.
Under the circumstances they did the right thing.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:59:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Belmont31R:

Originally Posted By Thatmanuhate:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
You guys do realize they had other affidavits from witnesses in addition to the call?

This was not all brought on by one phone call.
I dont think they do. Everyone seems to be forgetting that they keep alot of stuff secret until the investigation is over.



Does that still warrant taking all the kids? You're right in that we dont know everything but the shit would have to be beyond extremely bad to warrant taking every single kid out of there. This sounds like they got some info on some kids, and so decided to take all the kids. Im sure there are families there who dont have anything to do with underage marriage besides living on the same plot of land.

I still think its akin to them going house to house and taking all the kids in the neighborhood because a few are getting molested down the street.



416 children ripped from their mothers and their home. To me, this action would require MUCH justification.

With time, I expect all the evidence gathered to date will be ruled inadmissible. I also expect huge civil suits will follow.



5sub
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:59:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swede1986:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By swede1986:
The cops did the right thing.


Swede,

we just don't know that to be true as yet. (However, we DO KNOW the state has yet to produce the complainant.)

5sub


If the cops get a call from a girl saying she and other girls are being raped by a cult with a history of pedophilia, I think the cops should investigate.
Under the circumstances they did the right thing.


Where's the girl?
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