In last weeks paper it was reported that at a
town in Poland the townsfolk murdered about
1800 jews that had previously been thought to
have been killed by the Nazis. I realize this
is a long way from 6 million.....but it is a
start.
I don't want to start anything with this.
This is just a reminder that history is not
always accurate. For over 60 years it has
been taught the Nazis had murdered these 1800
jews. Now we learn that was not the case.
Regards.

Like I said; I do not want to start anything
with this.
I just want to bring it to the readers
attention (in case he or she missed it)
from the major newspapers last week.
It is just a new found fact, nothing more,
but as far as this one small town in Poland
went in 1940, the Polish townsfolk, committed
the murders, not the Germans, as has been taught.  
I know, the article failed to raise hardly
any eyebrows.
Just a small piece of information, that's all.

Geez guys,

I didn't take it that way at all.  I was surprised to hear that the poles did that.

I thought it was a good post.  [^]



Should have used the damn spell check...

I'll take a WAG at what he is getting at. In WWII Europe very few were not aware of what the Nazi's were doing, and many helped the Nazi's, but the blame for the atrocities is always put on the Nazi's.

Average people put in extraordinary circumstances can be monsters or heroes. Most "average" people just watch events happen around them, neither stopping the evil, or helping the righteous.

We have that here, "I don't want to get involved". And all the people who don't want to vote because the may get called for jury duty. The Courts function best with informed citizens, not just those who don't have a reason to get out of jury duty.

Voting and jury duty, responsibilities that ensure our Rights.

So the Nazis only killed 12,998,200 people.  Oh, how we misjudged them.  If enough stories keep getting uncovered, we will find out that Nazis really didn't kill anyone.  Boy, will we be embarrased.  

Yea, I'm just a little lost on the this is going....so the Nazi's were really pretty good after all? LOL, BOY THEY WERE FOR GUN CONTROL!

Bill

Happiness is a warm gun...
Bnag bang, shoot shoot...

I see that there's another Jew entering my territory.

Oy Ve, good to meet you.

Jewbroni~

Not surprising to me ONE BIT.
It was well known that many ethnic groups/nationalities in Europe resented Jews.
Besides the Germans, there were Poles, Russians, Czechs, Ukrainians, Austrians, the three Baltic Republics, Serbs, Romanians, Italians and French were minor players. There were others.
I believe they all did some massacring of their own, apart from the Nazi Germans.
Why stop with the Poles?

Consider this: With the Nazis wreaking so much destruction upon people, and rightfully taking full attention and blame for the crimes, how many of these other "smaller" massacres--such as the one in this thread---went hidden and/or mistakenly blamed on Nazis only??
I say many.

to me jewbait seams just like those few jews who would rather pretend he's not a jew to save his own ass, then to be proud of who he is and stick with his people thru good & bad

I rather admire the jews in many ways.  But I am a creature of History, always wanting to learn more.

So Jewbroni, answer this, how many did the Jews kill?

New Jersey shooter: Do the world a favor and
don't apply for any positions with any employers
that have the word "intelligence" in it.
No, I don't believe it was for sport.
Yes, I believe it was to save their own asses
from the Nazis. To make it look as though the
Poles were willing to go with the flow.
But the Germans killed tens of thousands of
Poles also. Not sure about the time frame.
The townspeople committed these crimes very
early in the war.
The whole point of the story was to show how
wrong about the towns culture historians have
been for decades.
No, this does'nt make the Germans good folk,
but how many more considered small atrocities
have been credited to the Germans.....that they
did not commit?

Ok, so what the historians have taught us was wrong in this case.  What about what Historians teach us now, that European Jews were "blameless victims" in the scheme of WWII.  Is this true Jewbroni?  Or did the European Jews also practice genocided themselves?  Inquiring minds want to know.

So your point is that not only were the Nazis evil, but so was everyone else that "picked on" the Jews?  What about the Jews, what did they do that was so terrible to incure such wrath?

Anyone?  Anyone?  Why is it so hard to get that question answered?

first take the time to read the posts. it's NYshooter not New Jersey. second if you would post more indepth about a story or of your beliefs about a said story, then people would understand what you are trying to express here. instead of thinking that your here just to start flame wars. you see the way you (anyone) puts something in writing without clarifying yourself makes people put would they think you really mean into the context of the post.

No harm. No foul. We're not here to fight with one another

I'm not here to state my opinion.
I just posted the subject from the
article in the papers last week.
Nothing more....nothing less.
Just some good old general discussion here Boss!
:)

Hey Jewbait, answer my questions.  You aren't ignoring them because you are afraid to discuss History are you?  Perhaps you are afraid you will hear something that you aren't prepared for?????

Jewbait, I must say sorry to you. after reading my above post I did something that we all hate. and that was stereo-type you the way I saw fit & without even knowing you.

"picked on" would be you calling someone a name. Murder is not "picking on" people. Killing 6 million of any one "type" of people is genocide. Killing 13 million people is a crime against humanity.

What did the Jews do?? What did the Africans that were traded as human commodities do? The answer they were different from a more powerful group.

Yes, I'm saying that not only Nazi's commited atrocities, but "regular" Germans, Poles, Russians, and so on. Not to mention the Catholic Church. So many people are complicit with the genocide. READ the 2nd paragraph of my original post.

No surprise about this "forgotten" piece of history. Differently from the Italian Jews, Israelis have no problem talking about the Shoah. Visiting my friends in Israel I met one of the that guided a tour of young Israelis in Auschwitz. Alongside the report he made of the visit, he was bitterly angry and surprised for what he discovered about the behaviour of the Polish toward the jews. He told us that they were worste that the Nazists. The point was so painful for him (I guess the disappointment...) that he couldnt say one word more.

For Mr. Ticonderoga: it is suitable to change your statement whan you say (I quote):"What about the Jews, what did they do that was so terrible to incure such wrath?" it is equivalent to say that if a woman has been raped, sure she did something to cause it. Or if someone will shoot you in the middle of your eyes, maybe you deserve it.

It is not the first time I see you posting in a suspicious way about jews. Admit it...

Tico: I don't have any answers for your questions. And I'm also certain that if I
did have an answer.....it would not meet
your satisfaction.
Please bear in mind; this post is neither
pro-jewish nor pro-Nazi.
Stop looking for an argument. :)

What did the jews do?  They tended to be more educated, ran small businesses rather than work in factories, etc. (generalizing here) and they worshipped differently, looked different and kept to themselves.  The economy was in a depression in Germany as well as the US.  Hitler found them to be a convenient place to point the finger of blame, a convenient rallying point for his rabble rousing speeches.

They were a target of opportunity.  Along with an ethnic cleansing of gypsies, homos and any other undesirables of the moment.

Norm

NormG hit the nail on the head.

The Jews, at that time, where only allowed to live in ghettoes, could not publicly educate their children and were barred from most trades.  As a result the Jewish community turned inward.  They fostered a very strong sense of community, valued education and worked hard.  This "island of success" in the middle of post WWI general German economic depression made them a natural target for Hitler, the German government, and all those "regular folk" who saw the Jews as having it better than they did.

The Jew's "crime"?  Success under oppression.

Did anyone see the HBO special about "the Meeting", where the Nazis planned how to wipe out the Jews?  Stanly Tucci and Kenneth Brannaugh.

The script was taken from the actual minutes of the meeting.
It really showed that, even though more than just Jews died in the Holocaust, the plan, the machinery, the intent was to wipe THEM out.  The others were considered bonuses.

Watch this show, it was powerful.
The fact that the script was taken from the original minutes helps to eliminate much of the spin.

Do you mean the Wannsee Conference?

BTW... the word "extermination" was never used. The right word was "reallocation"...

What we're talking about is human nature.  Humans tend to fear and distrust the unknown and the unusual.  In times of stress, society will demonize, and worst case purge those that do not conform to societal norms.

Norm G pretty much has it right, but doesn't take it far enough.  The Jews (and many other ethnic/religious groups) have chosen isolate themselves rather than integrate into the larger population.

Like so many things in life this behavior has both up and down sides.  The up side is that in a tolerant and relatively stress free society those that "dare to be different" have a strong sense of belonging, have strength in organized numbers, will benefit their group financially (jobs or business deals).  They will help each other socially.  This is not just getting invited to the right parties but translates into political power.  And, last but not least this has legal implications.  Back where I was raised, if you got a traffic ticket it was good to come before a Greek judge, if you were Greek, I'm not.  But what if you want a carry permit, or a zoning variance?  Belonging to a tightly knit group can help in many ways.

The down side(to belonging to a minority) is that when the SHTF the larger society is likely to scapegoat them for all perceived problems (drought, disease, crop failure, failure of the economy).  Once the minority is throughly demonized they will have "Special" laws passed just for them.  These laws will be many, obscure, and virtually impossible not to break.  Before long they are rounded up, their property is confiscated, they are jailed, shot, burned and in general have their civil rights violated.

Why is this lesson in history important to Us (2nd amend. types)?  We are the MINORITY!  We are blamed for the the "disease" of gun violence.  We keep to ourselves.  How many of us shoot with our neighbors on a social basis?  We are easy to identify, not because we have a bulbous nose and wear a yellow Star of David, but we do have a bulge under our coat and an NRA or RKBA sticker on our vehicle.  Need I go on?

Those that don't learn from history ....  To be forewarned is to be forearmed, though personally I prefer to be armed Xs four.

Semper Fi

Perhaps this event on July 10, 1941 is one which Jewbait is refering to:
[URL]www.ce-review.org/01/14/orlet14.html[/URL]

[red]Pogrom: Yiddish for an organized massacre of helpless people.[/red]

Pogroms of Jews and other minorities happened for many centuries. Hitler's Final Solution of the Jewish question may have been one of the largest and best known to people now but pogroms occurred (as M4C stated) all over eastern Europe.  These pogroms were usally against Jews but others became targets when regional hatred & prejudices flaired up.  Look at the Balkins now.

In my opinion Stalin was a larger mass murderer than Hitler. Blaming the Germans for other's misdeads isn't new, look at the Russian massacre of the Polish Army Officer Corp in the Katyn Forest.

My cousin and her brother spent time in a Nazi labor camp, as children.  They both survived.  Both say: "You must go on with your life."  Poles were killed by Nazi's and Russians.  Neverforget history for you are doomed to repeat it.  Keep picking at a scab and it never heals.

The fact is, most Europeans in the world of the 1930s resented, mistrusted and sometimes hated Jews.  Antisemitism was prevalent in Europe from the Middle Ages right on down to WW2.
It was practically rampant in pre-revolution Russia, where pogroms against Jews were a regular activity.

sad, but true.

on the flip side, MANY poles, ukrainians, russians, austrians, etc. HELPED jews in WWII. i will not forget that fact either - for those brave enough to go against the grain of their communities, and more importantly, against the mob-mentality, have often paid with their lives. STILL, i have yet to see an article "reminding" us of these brave and forgotten souls, i have yet to see a single statue erected to honor the raw "guts" it takes to stand up for what you know is right, even though your neighbors shun you for it, tell the authorities about it, and ultimately make you disappear for it.

Which paper was this? What edition? I want to read the article before I start swingin.

OK, I need to clear my throat and say something important here.

For starters, I am NOT Jewish.  My nickname is "the Jew"; for those familiar with my radio show, they know that I use this handle or "the Big Jewboski" on that outlet as well.  This name was given to me by a Jewish friend who said I acted like a very quirky Jew (think Mike Myers).  I have since embraced this nickname, not using it with an air of anti-semitism.  I am 1/2 Scotch-Irish - 1/2 German, and come from a predominately Roman Catholic and Methodist family.  I hope this clears up any confusion about myself [:I]

Now, on with the debate.  I have a natural feeling of Jewish sympathy, however I do not treat it as democratic African-American sympathy.  Affirmative Action is based on the idea that there needs to be a consoling of a particular group based on past transgressions.  As with Jews and Jewish-Americans, I believe that we should remember what iniquities took place in Eastern Europe against Semites, but feelings of pity and sympathy are not an answer.

Let me add another psychological piece of meat to the table, as to what happened during the Shoah ("Holocaust" for us gentiles).  In the midst of depression, while another group is doing particular well, it is natural to place prejudice against this particular group.  This idea, known as [b]relative deprivation[/b], can be prominantly shown in the black ghettos during the 1960's.  The economic situation was improving, for ALL groups of people, but many African-Americans thought that their standard of living was improving at a lesser rate than their Caucasian neighbors.  This causes aggravation.  And, given that the cause was race-related or not, it is MUCH easier to blame the difference in quality of living using "because we're Black" than it is to find and prove another reason.  This is not uncommon, and there are hundreds of additional examples, which many people on this board, I'm sure, could mention as well.

I received an email from someone recently, who claimed they are receiving anti-semitist "vibes" from Ticonderoga.  I, however, have not seen anything from him to prove likewise, and I actually take his side in this issue.  I am a creature of science and History, and am more of a learner than I am a debater.  I do not know why the Polish jews killed other jews (assuming, of course, the accused party was indeed Jewish...and that this story is true).  This is less of an argument of culture, than it is one of situational response.  In the light of facing extermination, the Polish might have found it would be easier to survive if they were given approval by the Nazi party, showing they were one in the same.  Unfortunately, I do not know more about the story, and this is all I can contribute to this particular debate.

So, in conclusion:
- I am not Jewish
- I like the Jewish people
- I do not feel pity for the Jews
- I do feel what transpired was a crime against humanity
- Jewbaits post was not meant with any flaming or intents of hate.  It was simply an enlightenment to a mistake in our history books.  The only debate that should occur from it, should be WHY groups outside the Nazi force would commit such a deed.

And that's all she wrote, for this thread...I'm done here.

Jewbroni~

I am not Jewish
I like the Jewish people
I do not feel pity for the Jews
I do feel what transpired was a crime against humanity

yeah, me too.

I'm not sure why anyone would think I am anti-semetic?  Actually that is somewhat alarming and "big brother" that certain subjects are taboo.

I do know that I am currently reading the "History of the World" written a good 40 years ago by Encyclopedia Brittanica, and it's much different from today's textbooks, noteably:

The "semetic" tribes (ie Jews) are the same race of people that inhabit many Mid-East countries today (Arabs).  And that the semetic tribes immigrated to Canaan (Palestine) from the the SouthEast (Saudi Arabia).

The Jews displaced the Cannannites and were later displaced by the sea faring Phillistines (today's Palestinians? - Palestine get's it's name from the Phillistines).

What you won't find in today's textbooks are that the Russian Revolution was led and run by Jews, noteably Lennin, Trotsky, and 7 of the 8 founding members of the Revolution.  Even Karl Marx was Jewish.  When Stalin later took power, he purged the old guard and the Jews have been persecuted in Russia since.  But prior to Stalin, over 15 million Russian "Christians" were slaughtered.

Why isn't this in the textbooks?  As bad as Hitler was, Stalin and Mao were worse, so why does Hitler rank as #1 bad guy?

i think you just answered jewbroni's question. for decades after the russian revolution, many people in occupied lands blamed their misery on jews as a whole. they were outcast on the village level, and discriminated against in the cities. stalin, however, was worse than hitler in my opinion, because he starved 10 million of his own people during peace-time - at least hitler considered jews an enemy in time of war. why aren't these things in history books? because the media in america was successfully fooled into believing that none of this ever happened. when the truth was faintly being uncovered, nobody cared.

As a Jew, a RKBA one no less.  There were Jews that were murdered, there were those that fought and died. And there were Jews that did the wrong thing, remember that even Hitler was a Jew.
No people have a monopoly on good or evil. There are those that were born Jews and do not practice. As there are those that are born into any religion,yet go away from the teachings and beliefs.
Yes the Nazis did it. And they were all not Germans, some were Poles, some French and even some were Jews. As there were Germans that fought the Nazis. Stupid people are just that, stupid people. Nazis not Germans or whomever.
We need to understand the dark side of people, there will be those who would commit crimes against others. And we must be on guard against them.

the problem with racism or predijuce (sp?) is that it the extent of which one has been on the recieving end or whittness to such as is entirely personal.  just as a rape victim might have a problem watching a scene on tv whilst others who have not been violated can watch without any anxiety.

i could tell jewbroni was not really jewish by his words, and jewbait?  that is a handle of a an antagonist.

i was born jewish and my relatives on one side come from the former prussian area. i respect the religion but do not practice.  my other side is japanese.  oddly enough, for the most part i do not look either jewish or japanese.  my first exposure to racism was at the hands of a gang of chinese youths who wanted me not to play at the park as i was a foreigner (this was in the far east)- only the intervention of guard stopped the beating up that was about to occurr.  i was 5.

once as a teen i was waiting for the bus with my mother and two white guys in a car spat on us yelling "fucking nips!"  that was nice.  i was 14, i think it hurt my gentle mother more however.

then in countless other casual and non-casual instances people who i worked with or knew from school would spout in anti-semitic terms - not knowing of my background.  i know all to well when someone is over MY fine line of a good heart and not.  for me the holocaust was a crime of perversion.  i do not feel sorry for the 'jews' as i do not feel sorry for myself.

people on this board cross that line from time to time and sometimes they mean it - other times i think they do not.  for what it's worth  i have found the most rabid homophobics are the ones with homosexual tendincies.  how does this translate to racism?  not sure - but was fatman pointed out hitler himself was anywhere half to a quarter jewish.

the various gentlemen who have replied on this thread my guess are white - the thing i have found about 'whites' is that there are really are not any really hurtful things you can say to a white person as they have never been on the defeated end or persecuted end of tyranny in the modern age.  so they cannot know what it is like to be on the recieving end.

steve (aka jewsushi - a real one!)

The reason that Jewish people were heavily involved in the Russian revolution was that Russia was an incredibly anti-semitic nation.  There were regular state-encouraged pogroms against Jewish people, wherein Jews were dragged from their homes and stoned or burned to death.  They had a huge vested interest in bringing down the Czarist government.

Poles = white
Byelorussians = white
Ukrainians = white
Yuogoslavians = white

the list goes on...
i can however respect the rest of your thread.

Good point, fatty.
I believe that he was PROBABLY talking more along the lines of your run-of-the-mill, blue blooded, American white male.  It's true, we haven't exactly been persecuted "as a race", so we probably aren't inclined to get overly metaphysical about it.  We are, however, a good 3rd party observer, "looking in" to the situation.  Remember, a position from all sides is necessary for a good debate...although it does seem this thread does have a Caucasian-American representation and undertone.

Not much you can do about that though.
Jewbroni~

From my studies, I think the average Ukrane peasant got it the worst in WWII as 20 million Ukranians were killed.  Not only did Hitler ethnically cleanse this land, but Stalin as well.

I too believe that to control the present one must understand history.  I think most don't realize that the average country throughout the ages only lasts a few hundred years.  The Roman, Persian, and Chinese empires being the exception.  That in mind, America is doomed to revolution or Balkinazation?

The pogroms discussed here have indeed happened many times.  I often wondered why the Jews were disliked so much throughout History and researched it.  To my amazement, the ONLY place you could PUBLICALLY find any info was on neo-nazi sites.  When I say publically, I mean other than going to the library.  I read some of the "info" on these sites, and started doing my research.

What I did find was not what the Aryan Nations types are spouting, but then again, not what I learned in high school either.  I can understand why any thing anti Jewish might get burried from today's textbooks, but I think that that is a dis-service to History.

Really, how sad is it that to find the history of the Russian Revolution, one has to turn to hate mongers to learn something?

As for the Porgoms, I was shocked to hear that Hitler was hardly the first at this:

Mainz, 1012
France, 1182
Upper Bavaria, 1276
England, 1290
France, 1306
France, 1322
Saxony, 1349
Hungary, 1360
Belgium, 1370
Slovakia, 1380
France, 1394
Austria, 1420
Lyons, 1420
Cologne, 1424
Mainz, 1438
Ausburg, 1439
Upper Bavaria, 1442
Netherlands, 1444
Brandenburg, 1446
Mainz, 1462
Mainz, 1483
Warsaw, 1483
Spain, 1492
Italy, 1492
Lithuania, 1495
Portugal, 1496
Naples, 1496
Navarre, 1498
Nuremberg, 1498
Brandenburg, 1510
Prussia, 1510
Genoa, 1515
Naples, 1533
Italy, 1540
Naples, 1541
Prague, 1541
Genoa, 1550
Bavaria, 1551
Prague, 1557
Papal States, 1569
Hungary, 1582
Hamburg, 1649
Vienna, 1669
Slovakia, 1744
Moravia, 1744
Bohemia, 1744
Moscow, 1891

In each of these above, the Jews were deported, exocuted, and or just plain old fashioned "ethnically cleansed."

You won't learn anything accurate from them. The reasons Jews were resented have already been listed for you accurately here. If you choose to believe bullshit you read on an Aryan Nations website instead, that's your problem.

In reading some of the info from so called "hate groups," I was shocked to hear something other than what I'd heard in the mainstream press.  I don't see some conspiracy here, but rather, I'f I'm a Jewish film maker, I'm going to paint my ancestors in the best possible light.

The skin head types say that the reason the Jews have been persecuted so many years was their own fault that they were "users" of their neighbors, that their religion was anti-Christian.  While I don't believe the Jews brought any of this on themselves, I have found some truth in this.  Just read your Old Testament and see that Judaism is (like most any religion) very ethno-centric.

But just using regular logic, it can be assumed that any religion that went contrary to the Catholic Church (and later the Lutheran, etc) would get one into serious trouble.  In all of my studies, I have found the Muslims to be much more tollerant of the Jews than the Christians were.

I did find in my research that often the governments used Jews to do "dirty work" as their ties to the citizens of the countries they lived in were limited.  These rolls usually took the form of tax collector (Genesis 47:14-27), or Banker.  When hard times come, who is the bad guy but the tax man and the loan collector?  King Edward of England in 1290 tapped out every Jew in London of their gold (they were ALL bankers), financed his war in Scottland (Braveheart) and then systematically slaughtered them all.

Set to this backdrop, I think Norm G's summary best describes what I believe to be true:

[B]"What did the jews do? They tended to be more educated, ran small businesses rather than work in factories, etc. (generalizing here) and they worshipped differently, looked different and kept to themselves. The economy was in a depression in Germany as well as the US. Hitler found them to be a convenient place to point the finger of blame, a convenient rallying point for his rabble rousing speeches.[/B]

But ask yourself this, why is it that I have to go to some neo-nazi website to get info to begin looking into Jewish history?  Have we become so "anti" semetic, so "politically correct" that we can't talk about BAD Jewish History as well as the good?  

To me, getting called a "race baitor" or a "nazi" [B]as has been done on this board[/B] for asking the simple "Why?" has me disturbed at best.  And considering the incredible influence the 2% of Jews in this country have in Hollywood and Washington, it should concern you as well.

Ti I have several very good history books on the Jews, There is more than you can think. Remember that our laws in the US are based on the Torah.
And Steve, don't assume that a white man can not feel discrimination. I have been told at work that 'you have a problem with your color' The other day a supervisor was telling some new cops, I was on the side of town where the niiii, ah colored folk live. when I walked in. I get that alot. I have very limited friends at work.
I could be one of them, I chose not too.

Please Rikwriter, tell me what my problem is.  I suppose looking into something to see if it's BS or not is a problem?  The average American won't look into the massacre at Waco because it's not PC.  

I think EVERYONE here should go to a neo-nazi website and see what they are spewing.  According to them, the Hollocaust never happened.  When I read that, I thought, "What a bunch of idiots."  So I started researching.  And MY OWN RESEARCH tells me that it did.  My own visits to the concentration camps in Europe and my own visits with Jewish survivors tell me it did happen.  Why is it wrong to confront the taboo?  Really, what are we afraid of, that we'll get brainwashed into becoming a nazi?

The one thing this quest for knowledge has done for me is set me straight on the Crusades.  Talk about a Hollywood whitewash.  The Crusades were about as bad as Hitler's armies marching into Europe.  The Muslims were Saints compared to their counterparts.

Rik, I just read your post again and am in shock of it.  

[B]You won't learn anything accurate from them. The reasons Jews were resented have already been listed for you accurately here. If you choose to believe bullshit you read on an Aryan Nations website instead, that's your problem.[/B]

Translated roughly, "Don't question.  Obey.  Do as we tell you, don't make up your own mind."

[B]"The reasons are ALL ready listed here.[/B]  REALLY?  ALL OF THEM?  To have another, or to "step outside the PC" box is wrong?  Mabye you are the one with the "problem" my friend.  Think about it.