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Posted: 2/12/2013 3:43:45 PM EDT
Everyone Most people know of Waco. Now there is Dorner who deserved it, but it was still unconstitutional. Also not far from where I am now there is this story I remember happening when I was young.

Read April - 1990
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:46:39 PM EDT
The Police didn't kill him the fire did.

Seriously though, he always has the option of surrender. The suspect drives the use of force, whatever it may be. I don't think anyone ever trains to burn anyone out and I doubt they did that here although fires do break out when you have gas and breaching going on.

Either way, good burn
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:47:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
The Police didn't kill him the fire did.

Seriously though, he always has the option of surrender. The suspect drives the use of force, whatever it may be. I don't think anyone ever trains to burn anyone out and I doubt they did that here although fires do break out when you have gas and breaching going on.

Either way, good burn


And it is much easier than having to give a person a trial and have proof.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:49:10 PM EDT
Just how do you know RIGHT NOW that the police are burning him out? Maybe Dorner lit the fire. I'm watching the news and no news crew is anywhere near the cabin.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:50:35 PM EDT
Who needs drone strikes when you can just fire a tear gas canister that lights the house on fire.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:51:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By STUBBO:
Just how do you know RIGHT NOW that the police are burning him out? Maybe Dorner lit the fire. I'm watching the news and no news crew is anywhere near the cabin.


meh police said on the scanner go for burn plan. a lot of members here said they heard it. As for the one in noble county ohio. The Washington county sheriffs and FD all left when he told his deputy to get molotovs. The guy they burned out of their was mentally handicapped also.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:52:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 3:52:33 PM EDT by Mastadon]
Never mind. Misunderstood.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:53:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
The Police didn't kill him the fire did.

Seriously though, he always has the option of surrender. The suspect drives the use of force, whatever it may be. I don't think anyone ever trains to burn anyone out and I doubt they did that here although fires do break out when you have gas and breaching going on.

Either way, good burn


Yeah! Fuck the constitution...oh wait...what are we talking about again? Never mind I think american idol is on.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:54:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 3:55:39 PM EDT by DragoMuseveni]

Originally Posted By aemun:
Originally Posted By STUBBO:
Just how do you know RIGHT NOW that the police are burning him out? Maybe Dorner lit the fire. I'm watching the news and no news crew is anywhere near the cabin.


meh police said on the scanner go for burn plan. a lot of members here said they heard it. As for the one in noble county ohio. The Washington county sheriffs and FD all left when he told his deputy to get molotovs. The guy they burned out of their was mentally handicapped also.


The ATF needs to go after their asses for not paying the tax.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:54:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
The Police didn't kill him the fire did.

Seriously though, he always has the option of surrender. The suspect drives the use of force, whatever it may be. I don't think anyone ever trains to burn anyone out and I doubt they did that here although fires do break out when you have gas and breaching going on.

Either way, good burn


No, I don't think he did.

Surrounded by pissed off cops...you're as good as dead.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:54:27 PM EDT
In on 1
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:55:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By aemun:
Originally Posted By STUBBO:
Just how do you know RIGHT NOW that the police are burning him out? Maybe Dorner lit the fire. I'm watching the news and no news crew is anywhere near the cabin.


meh police said on the scanner go for burn plan. a lot of members here said they heard it. As for the one in noble county ohio. The Washington county sheriffs and FD all left when he told his deputy to get molotovs. The guy they burned out of their was mentally handicapped also.


I wasn't listening to the radio transmissions, so maybe it did happen as you say.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:55:22 PM EDT
Due process is for suckas.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:55:25 PM EDT
What's the hurry. If he was in the cabin, wait him out
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:55:57 PM EDT
In before my house gets burned down since I have 30 round AR mags and 15 round Glocks mags.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 3:57:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VACaver:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
The Police didn't kill him the fire did.

Seriously though, he always has the option of surrender. The suspect drives the use of force, whatever it may be. I don't think anyone ever trains to burn anyone out and I doubt they did that here although fires do break out when you have gas and breaching going on.

Either way, good burn


No, I don't think he did.

Surrounded by pissed off cops...you're as good as dead.



Yeah, once you've killed a couple of them, I'm pretty sure they are going to be bringing it even if he had exited the premises naked and with his back to the police.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:04:35 PM EDT
I don't care who lit this fire, as long as no one else besides him dead is OK with me.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:06:50 PM EDT
I just heard fox say that he started the fire. They also said he kidnapped two people that r still alive.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:06:55 PM EDT
Look at what they did in Philly when they burned a whole city block down. I half expect them to use a hellfire on him.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:07:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By casey1:
I don't care who lit this fire, as long as no one else besides him dead is OK with me.


Really?

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:10:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VACaver:
Originally Posted By casey1:
I don't care who lit this fire, as long as no one else besides him dead is OK with me.


Really?



I am not sure, but I don't think he believes in due process
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:12:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VACaver:
Originally Posted By casey1:
I don't care who lit this fire, as long as no one else besides him dead is OK with me.


Really?


well he was a bad man and if you look at the back of the constitution there is a foot note that states taht the constitution doesn't cover anyone who government agents feel to be a bad man.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:12:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 4:14:06 PM EDT by Citadel-SC]
Sounds like they used CS in an attempt to flush him out before dark. Clearly, it would be a huge risk to send guys in given we already have a few dead cops...one of which he just killed that day. I don't see what is do damn controversial here as it stands so far with what we know. It is not like he was going to surrender. Eventually someone would have to go in with the result being more dead people. Waiting it out increased the risk of him escaping or something else happening. I would have made the same call. Unfortunately it started a fire and I am sure they knew the risk of this....they weighed them probably and determined the risk of fire was outweighed by other considerations.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:13:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Sounds like they used CS in an attempt to flush him out before dark. Clearly, it would be a huge risk to send guys in given we already have a few dead cops...one of which he just killed that day. I don't see what is do damn controversial here as it stands so far with what we know. It is not like he was going to surrender. Eventually someone would have to go in with the result being more dead people. Waiting it out increased the risk of him escaping or something else happening. I would have made the same call.

CWC = constitution when convenient
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:15:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Sounds like they used CS in an attempt to flush him out before dark. Clearly, it would be a huge risk to send guys in given we already have a few dead cops...one of which he just killed that day. I don't see what is do damn controversial here as it stands so far with what we know. It is not like he was going to surrender. Eventually someone would have to go in with the result being more dead people. Waiting it out increased the risk of him escaping or something else happening. I would have made the same call.

CWC = constitution when convenient


Not sure if serious. Not the first time CS was used in an attempt to flush out a suspect. Nothing unconstitutional about it.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:16:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 4:17:37 PM EDT by fingas]

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Sounds like they used CS in an attempt to flush him out before dark. Clearly, it would be a huge risk to send guys in given we already have a few dead cops...one of which he just killed that day. I don't see what is do damn controversial here as it stands so far with what we know. It is not like he was going to surrender. Eventually someone would have to go in with the result being more dead people. Waiting it out increased the risk of him escaping or something else happening. I would have made the same call.

CWC = constitution when convenient


Not sure if serious. Not the first time CS was used in an attempt to flush out a suspect. Nothing unconstitutional about it.


Its amazing how often CS spontaneously combusts .

ETA: I guess that the cops haven't learned that CS can start fires. Never mind that has been their excuse since the 90s
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:17:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By armalitedave:
In before my house gets burned down since I have 30 round AR mags and 15 round Glocks mags.


This. What is wrong with people? Guilty or not, it doesn't matter, due process is due process, convenient or not.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:18:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Sounds like they used CS in an attempt to flush him out before dark. Clearly, it would be a huge risk to send guys in given we already have a few dead cops...one of which he just killed that day. I don't see what is do damn controversial here as it stands so far with what we know. It is not like he was going to surrender. Eventually someone would have to go in with the result being more dead people. Waiting it out increased the risk of him escaping or something else happening. I would have made the same call.

CWC = constitution when convenient


Not sure if serious. Not the first time CS was used in an attempt to flush out a suspect. Nothing unconstitutional about it.


Its amazing how often CS spontaneously combusts


What are you implying? Of course, it must be a conspiracy. Lets allow the dust to settle and get some more info before we go crazy mmmkay?
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:19:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lichter50:
What's the hurry. If he was in the cabin, wait him out


Couldn't trump the SOTU, had to get it over with quick like.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:19:50 PM EDT
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:20:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 4:24:16 PM EDT by Citadel-SC]
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess. It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:23:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Sounds like they used CS in an attempt to flush him out before dark. Clearly, it would be a huge risk to send guys in given we already have a few dead cops...one of which he just killed that day. I don't see what is do damn controversial here as it stands so far with what we know. It is not like he was going to surrender. Eventually someone would have to go in with the result being more dead people. Waiting it out increased the risk of him escaping or something else happening. I would have made the same call.

CWC = constitution when convenient


Not sure if serious. Not the first time CS was used in an attempt to flush out a suspect. Nothing unconstitutional about it.


Its amazing how often CS spontaneously combusts


What are you implying? Of course, it must be a conspiracy. Lets allow the dust to settle and get some more info before we go crazy mmmkay?

I never said it was a conspiracy. I said that the cops burned a man alive. You stated that they uses CS and that it has been used many times before. Cops themselves are the ones that have told us that CS starts the fires. So whatever your beliefs the cops knowingly burned a man alive I don't fucking care if they did it on purpose or by sheer negligence. Either way that is fucked up.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:23:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:23:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess.
well since you have made that assumption we should grant government a pass.

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:25:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By casey1:
I don't care who lit this fire, as long as no one else besides him dead is OK with me.


karma is a bitch. remember that
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:25:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess. It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely.


The cops didn't seem interested in due process either.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:25:32 PM EDT
Exigent Circumstances
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:25:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess.
well since you have made that assumption we should grant government a pass.



It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely. Please give me your solution?
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:26:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 4:26:46 PM EDT by LightningII]
Danny Coulson ( former FBI, Waco) was on the news talking about how tear gas can cause fires.
funny, I'm pretty sure he was one of the guys denying the government's tear gas started the fire that killed 80+ people ( about 15 kids) at Waco.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:27:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess.


Maybe not. But that is no excuse. If he had come out guns blazing then shoot him. If he escalated the stand off to a shooting match then have at. But if the fucker wasn't fighting back at the time of the incident then he gets to have a trial by his peers. Inconvenient...but Constitutional and fair.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:27:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 4:28:37 PM EDT by Citadel-SC]
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess. It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely.


The cops didn't seem interested in due process either.


OK...So what would you do to capture this guy? If he is shooting at me and has made it clear he has and is going to kill more cops given the chance....how in the hell are they suppose to capture him? My point stands. Dorner was going to die one way or another. That was his choice.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:28:11 PM EDT
I'm ok with buring terrorist out in a war zone......NOT ok with buring criminals out in the US.....especially when those criminals are US citizens.



There was a better way.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:28:19 PM EDT
Even those that commit a mass shooting get a trial. The burnout was absolutely fucking wrong
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:28:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By armalitedave:
In before my house gets burned down since I have 30 round AR mags and 15 round Glocks mags.


It might come to this soon all over the place.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:29:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess. It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely.


The cops didn't seem interested in due process either.


OK...So what would you do to capture this guy? If he is shooting at me and has made it clear he has and is going to kill more cops given the chance....how in the hell are they suppose to capture him?


The cops had two perimeters. Wait him out. Murdering him shouldn't be an option.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:29:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Canoeguy:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess.


Maybe not. But that is no excuse. If he had come out guns blazing then shoot him. If he escalated the stand off to a shooting match then have at. But if the fucker wasn't fighting back at the time of the incident then he gets to have a trial by his peers. Inconvenient...but Constitutional and fair.
this man gets it

Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:31:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:

The cops had two perimeters. Wait him out. Murdering him shouldn't be an option.


But he was a bad bad man.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:32:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fingas:

Originally Posted By Canoeguy:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess.


Maybe not. But that is no excuse. If he had come out guns blazing then shoot him. If he escalated the stand off to a shooting match then have at. But if the fucker wasn't fighting back at the time of the incident then he gets to have a trial by his peers. Inconvenient...but Constitutional and fair.
this man gets it



Crazy considering to many on here I am a JBT.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:32:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2013 4:33:30 PM EDT by Citadel-SC]
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess. It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely.


The cops didn't seem interested in due process either.


OK...So what would you do to capture this guy? If he is shooting at me and has made it clear he has and is going to kill more cops given the chance....how in the hell are they suppose to capture him?


The cops had two perimeters. Wait him out. Murdering him shouldn't be an option.


Well that would be one option but it was weighed I'm guessing on the risk of it getting dark, risk of escape or another firefight, and other considerations. I would have tried to flush him out while still having the advantage of daylight. No easy answers but it is not a violation of due process to use CS to end a stand off.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:33:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Originally Posted By Citadel-SC:
Originally Posted By M82Assault:
Shit, I called this outcome in another thread. Guess this time the .gov just forgot the tank.


The guy killed innocents and deserved it, but still. Guess due process is a thing of the past.


I don't think Dorner was going to allow due process to take place....just a guess. It is not like they did not chase after him earlier in the day. He fired on four officers total and killed one and injured another who ran around back to cover a rear escape. I don't know what the cops are suppose to do if the guy doesn't want to be captured. I guess they should ask more nicely.


The cops didn't seem interested in due process either.


OK...So what would you do to capture this guy? If he is shooting at me and has made it clear he has and is going to kill more cops given the chance....how in the hell are they suppose to capture him? My point stands. Dorner was going to die one way or another. That was his choice.


I personally would shoot at every random pickup truck in the greater LA metro area.
Link Posted: 2/12/2013 4:33:52 PM EDT
Makes you wonder what will happen when you have to stand against tyranny? Will they use Drones or burn you out? They don't even have to bring out the heavy artillery.
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