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Posted: 9/15/2011 1:31:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 1:31:52 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]
I have a question.

Is protecting the homeland from an invading foreign Army considered one of the jobs of Police? Or is that just considered a job for the .mil and militias?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:32:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:33:02 PM EST
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:46:07 PM EST
Police against a regular army? They would be slaughtered.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:48:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 1:50:34 PM EST by slama682]
Originally Posted By Umbrellacorp:
Police against a regular army? They would be slaughtered.


Probably true. Even the ones who have training and an idea of what to do are not going to have enough equipment or ammunition to make much of an impact.

Hell, NYC has 38,000 cops. Sounds impressive, but that is 38,000 cops armed mostly with handguns: no rifles, except ESU, no shotguns, and some still probably have .38s and speed loaders.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:51:59 PM EST
Without reading past the original post, this will be 5 pages of "cops ARE civilians" debate.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:53:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:53:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 1:53:55 PM EST by macman37]
They will be called upon to obtain the 4473 forms.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:54:50 PM EST
The police faill at waging war on ordinary criminals. They constantly use terms like hardened and dangerous to emphasize how difficult it is. Against a trained and equipped military force they wouldnt even amount to a speed bump. Communications is their only tactical tool. Use them as scouts if anything.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:55:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 1:56:17 PM EST by Justice23]
See that tank next to that star?

If the Chinese parachute into XXXXXXXXXXXX, Rhode Island I will be leading every officer on my shift to hold them off until the calvary comes or we are wiped out.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:56:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:57:32 PM EST
"We're police officers! We're not trained to handle this kind of violence!"
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:57:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By Umbrellacorp:
Police against a regular army? They would be slaughtered.


Pretty much. Depending on the nature of the invader and the set up of the country invaded, the best options for LE might be to distance themselves from their work and identities and blend in, acting as potential intelligence assets for resistance/defenders, maintain as they are and assist the invader with public order, also while acting as an intel source as above, or ditching their identities and acting as resistance cell nuclei.

Since I'm gonna assume the OP means LE in the U.S., I'd say the first option in urban areas, the second (possibly mixed with a little of the third,) in rural areas. Me personally, I suspect I'd have to go with option 4A or 4B, with A being making the invader take the building I'm in with artillery or a handy air-dropped bomb, and B being getting gunned down for little to no gain in the street. But I'm pretty sure that I'm never gonna have to make that call, unless somehow the U.S.A. goes out of business, in which case my suppositions up to this point would likely be way off base given whatever social dynamic would exist at such a time.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:58:28 PM EST
what Tom Clancy book did the polizi come face to face with the Russian armor
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 1:59:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 1:59:43 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?


Riddle me this.

If the police (remembering they have neither the training nor equipment to be a soldier) are helping along side the military - who is keeping the peace in the towns & cities? Crime goes on even if you're at war.

Right. I am saying if an invading army enters a certain police force's jurisdiction. Would that police force be ordered to fight back? Or are police strictly for enforce the law on citizens and would not be used to resist said attack?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:00:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?


Posted before I read this clarification––-in that case, my answer is that .gov would want police doing their regular jobs in unoccupied areas (possibly with some being used to assist in relocation/refugee situations that the NG would normally be used for,) and doing their regular jobs in occupied areas, but hopefully acting as intel sources.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:00:54 PM EST
You guys know we have nukes, right? We also have more firearms than anyone else in the world. I'd be suicidal to invade the US.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:01:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:01:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.


This
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:01:37 PM EST
Yea what army is going to invade anytime soon ?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:02:11 PM EST
I'd like to hope that LEOs would be right beside the doctors, lawyers and fry cooks fighting the good fight.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:04:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kilroytheknifesnob:
You guys know we have nukes, right? We also have more firearms than anyone else in the world. I'd be suicidal to invade the US.


What good are nukes or any weapon for that matter if you don't have the balls to use them?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:04:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?


Riddle me this.

If the police (remembering they have neither the training nor equipment to be a soldier) are helping along side the military - who is keeping the peace in the towns & cities? Crime goes on even if you're at war.

Right. I am saying if an invading army enters a certain police force's jurisdiction. Would that police force be ordered to fight back? Or are police strictly for enforce the law on citizens and would not be used to resist said attack?


To clarify further––-no military commander worth his salt (in my opinion,) would try to order police forces to do that. It would be a waste of potential intel for zero practical gain––-say we're talking about NOLA here: use 1,400 police (admittedly, some with .mil experience, but without units trained to act as units,) to attack an invading force of modern combined arms? Silly. Some would melt, most would be killed or captured, we might cause a couple hundred casualties among enemy grunts, maybe a dozen mid level officers if we were lucky and good, and the invader would either not really notice, all things considered, or exact reprisals against the population.

Now, a *political* leader might just try to give such an order out of stupidity, but it would be just that, stupid, and have the same effect.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:04:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:05:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
The police faill at waging war on ordinary criminals. They constantly use terms like hardened and dangerous to emphasize how difficult it is. Against a trained and equipped military force they wouldnt even amount to a speed bump. Communications is their only tactical tool. Use them as scouts if anything.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Hey Genius,

Combat's different than ordinary police work. When I was in the Marines and we got called out, no one gave a shit about the resale value of the neighborhood.
I could also call in arty, air support, and naval gunfire when needed.

As a cop I dont "wage war on ordinary criminals". I protect the populace of my jurisdiction from crime to the extent I'm allowed to by law and department policy.

If my Department and the State of Missouri decided to drop its laws in favor of the UCMJ, adopt a zero tolerance policy for violatipns of the law, and cuurent ROE for Iraq & Afghanistan, we'd have alot less crime.
However, since all those pesky laws are rights get in the way, you feel we fail.

To the OP,

Foreign invaders might very well run us over, but we'll keep em occupied til Hugo comes up from Tennessee and vanquishes them all by himself.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:06:51 PM EST
In some occupied countries during WWII, the civil police (after purging) continued doing the same job, but at the direction of the occupier.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:08:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?


Riddle me this.

If the police (remembering they have neither the training nor equipment to be a soldier) are helping along side the military - who is keeping the peace in the towns & cities? Crime goes on even if you're at war.

Right. I am saying if an invading army enters a certain police force's jurisdiction. Would that police force be ordered to fight back? Or are police strictly for enforce the law on citizens and would not be used to resist said attack?


To clarify further––-no military commander worth his salt (in my opinion,) would try to order police forces to do that. It would be a waste of potential intel for zero practical gain––-say we're talking about NOLA here: use 1,400 police (admittedly, some with .mil experience, but without units trained to act as units,) to attack an invading force of modern combined arms? Silly. Some would melt, most would be killed or captured, we might cause a couple hundred casualties among enemy grunts, maybe a dozen mid level officers if we were lucky and good, and the invader would either not really notice, all things considered, or exact reprisals against the population.

Now, a *political* leader might just try to give such an order out of stupidity, but it would be just that, stupid, and have the same effect.

Not necessarily order them to "attack", but to "defend" the city they're charged with working in.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:08:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Forest:
That's a job of the Military.

The police are there to keep the peace among the population and enforce the laws.


First post, as usual, nailed it.

However, if the mexi-can army happened to stray across our border (again) while helping the drug cartels move their products into the US, and provoke a response on the occasion of that incursion, I wouldn't complain if I saw cops sending rounds south along with the military.......Hell I'd prolly try to get a few shots in myself if I were there.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:09:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By MaxxII:
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
The police faill at waging war on ordinary criminals. They constantly use terms like hardened and dangerous to emphasize how difficult it is. Against a trained and equipped military force they wouldnt even amount to a speed bump. Communications is their only tactical tool. Use them as scouts if anything.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Hey Genius,

Combat's different than ordinary police work. When I was in the Marines and we got called out, no one gave a shit about the resale value of the neighborhood.
I could also call in arty, air support, and naval gunfire when needed.

As a cop I dont "wage war on ordinary criminals". I protect the populace of my jurisdiction from crime to the extent I'm allowed to by law and department policy.

If my Department and the State of Missouri decided to drop its laws in favor of the UCMJ, adopt a zero tolerance policy for violatipns of the law, and cuurent ROE for Iraq & Afghanistan, we'd have alot less crime.
However, since all those pesky laws are rights get in the way, you feel we fail.

To the OP,

Foreign invaders might very well run us over, but we'll keep em occupied til Hugo comes up from Tennessee and vanquishes them all by himself.


He may have typed that first sentence too hastily. Hugo *is* extremely critical and rather judgemental of LE, but he's not an idiot in my experience.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:10:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?


Riddle me this.

If the police (remembering they have neither the training nor equipment to be a soldier) are helping along side the military - who is keeping the peace in the towns & cities? Crime goes on even if you're at war.

Right. I am saying if an invading army enters a certain police force's jurisdiction. Would that police force be ordered to fight back? Or are police strictly for enforce the law on citizens and would not be used to resist said attack?


To clarify further––-no military commander worth his salt (in my opinion,) would try to order police forces to do that. It would be a waste of potential intel for zero practical gain––-say we're talking about NOLA here: use 1,400 police (admittedly, some with .mil experience, but without units trained to act as units,) to attack an invading force of modern combined arms? Silly. Some would melt, most would be killed or captured, we might cause a couple hundred casualties among enemy grunts, maybe a dozen mid level officers if we were lucky and good, and the invader would either not really notice, all things considered, or exact reprisals against the population.

Now, a *political* leader might just try to give such an order out of stupidity, but it would be just that, stupid, and have the same effect.

Not necessarily order them to "attack", but to "defend" the city they're charged with working in.


I myself typed that too hastily. My assesment stands, however, even with "defend this place," in place of "attack those chaps."
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:12:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I'd like to hope that LEOs would be right beside the doctors, lawyers and fry cooks fighting the good fight.


All enemies that threaten the American way of life! I'll worry about law after the fight! Army invading........suddenly there is more for everyone to worry about than who stole my purse!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:16:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:17:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.

I'm not asking what YOU feel the job of the police would be at the time. I am wondering if .gov considers whether police should be used alongside the military to resist an attack?


Riddle me this.

If the police (remembering they have neither the training nor equipment to be a soldier) are helping along side the military - who is keeping the peace in the towns & cities? Crime goes on even if you're at war.

Right. I am saying if an invading army enters a certain police force's jurisdiction. Would that police force be ordered to fight back? Or are police strictly for enforce the law on citizens and would not be used to resist said attack?


IMHO the police would be in the way of the Military.

Remember just because they have guns that doesn't make them a soldier. Especially since most of them only have handguns..

Do you think the US govt would order postal inspectors to help fight off the hordes of an invading army? Neither do I.

You'd have a better chance of asking them asking for the citizen militia or State Defense Forces to help out - and that chance is pretty much zero.


Not so sure on that part. Long guns and rifles are pretty common anymore, usually no farther than the trunk for most.

Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:19:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:21:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 2:23:00 PM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Not necessarily order them to "attack", but to "defend" the city they're charged with working in.


Who is going to setup the defense plan? Are they being expected to defend with sidarms and a few 12 gauges or maybe if they are lucky a handful of patrol rifles?

If the military isn't there the best anyone could hope to do is burn the police station records, remove their uniforms and blend in. Act like informers for the military or perhaps as partisans.

Defending against a military foce poweful enough to land on our shores would be suicide for the cops and any civilians that thought it was a good idea to help them, and the rest of the town.

We're getting way too complex on this.

It was a simple question, whether the police would be charged with helping to defend a town or would they be like civilians and flee or fight on their own type of thing. And not expected to do any fighting?

I remember because in Iraq, the Iraqi Army would fight, but the police just melted in with the population and when the fighting stopped, they came back out, met us and we allowed them to start policing again.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:22:57 PM EST
We are the first line.....
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:23:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By SO758:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I'd like to hope that LEOs would be right beside the doctors, lawyers and fry cooks fighting the good fight.


All enemies that threaten the American way of life! I'll worry about law after the fight! Army invading........suddenly there is more for everyone to worry about than who stole my purse!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


WTF are you talking about? You lost me at "All".
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:24:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By klinc:
It's my job being an American citizen. I think the police fall into that catagory.


Way beyond their capability. I don't care how much SWAT toys and training you have. You don't go up against a BMP or even a platoon of Messican soldiers armed with selective fire and belt fed weapons.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:26:15 PM EST
Police would be best used the same way that MPs are. Rear area actions and prisoner handling.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:26:47 PM EST
They'll be around to disarm you.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:31:42 PM EST
Who are we, the French?
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:35:20 PM EST
I dunno, but they'd probably make good choices for recruitment into military units who are short staffed.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:40:16 PM EST
Are we not talking about a force that has invaded the US? Can they not be my enemy as well? Now think for a moment.....an enemy that has succesfully invaded the US! Meaning they were not destroyed by the .mil before they landed? I would think it is now ALL our problem! Meaning every damn American that can carry a weapon!

Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By SO758:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I'd like to hope that LEOs would be right beside the doctors, lawyers and fry cooks fighting the good fight.


All enemies that threaten the American way of life! I'll worry about law after the fight! Army invading........suddenly there is more for everyone to worry about than who stole my purse!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


WTF are you talking about? You lost me at "All".




Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:42:02 PM EST
I can see all LEO that are also in the reserves being called up, but they would then be soldiers and not LEO.

LEO without any .mil experience would be a minor speed bump to a foreign invader.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:48:53 PM EST
I didnt call him an idiot....

Its fine to be critical of LE. I just ask that people use common sense regarding what they expect.

Still, if someone I respect,(that would be you Scotchy), is willing to cut him some slack, I'm willing to give him a chance to rethink his position.

BTW-Paraframe,

I meant to tell you that I appreciated your post in the last thread. I've decided that I like you and will make you a Junior Officer. I'll be back with your badge shortly.

Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By MaxxII:
Originally Posted By Hugo_Stiglitz:
The police faill at waging war on ordinary criminals. They constantly use terms like hardened and dangerous to emphasize how difficult it is. Against a trained and equipped military force they wouldnt even amount to a speed bump. Communications is their only tactical tool. Use them as scouts if anything.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Hey Genius,

Combat's different than ordinary police work. When I was in the Marines and we got called out, no one gave a shit about the resale value of the neighborhood.
I could also call in arty, air support, and naval gunfire when needed.

As a cop I dont "wage war on ordinary criminals". I protect the populace of my jurisdiction from crime to the extent I'm allowed to by law and department policy.

If my Department and the State of Missouri decided to drop its laws in favor of the UCMJ, adopt a zero tolerance policy for violatipns of the law, and cuurent ROE for Iraq & Afghanistan, we'd have alot less crime.
However, since all those pesky laws are rights get in the way, you feel we fail.

To the OP,

Foreign invaders might very well run us over, but we'll keep em occupied til Hugo comes up from Tennessee and vanquishes them all by himself.


He may have typed that first sentence too hastily. Hugo *is* extremely critical and rather judgemental of LE, but he's not an idiot in my experience.


Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:56:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By SO758:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I'd like to hope that LEOs would be right beside the doctors, lawyers and fry cooks fighting the good fight.


All enemies that threaten the American way of life! I'll worry about law after the fight! Army invading........suddenly there is more for everyone to worry about than who stole my purse!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


WTF are you talking about? You lost me at "All".


Yeah, looked to me that he was calling LEOs, doctors, lawyers, and fry cooks enemies of the American way of life.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:56:43 PM EST
Geez mister, my very own junior G-man badge? No stuffed dog will be safe when I am around.

But really, thanks. I try (and all too often fail) to be reasonable.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 2:59:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Geez mister, my very own junior G-man badge? No stuffed dog will be safe when I am around.

But really, thanks. I try (and all too often fail) to be reasonable.


Link Posted: 9/15/2011 3:02:54 PM EST
No dude.....im a leo. Not putting down anyone! I'll stand next to any American that is willing to stop a raping, pillaging invading army!


Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
Originally Posted By SO758:
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I'd like to hope that LEOs would be right beside the doctors, lawyers and fry cooks fighting the good fight.


All enemies that threaten the American way of life! I'll worry about law after the fight! Army invading........suddenly there is more for everyone to worry about than who stole my purse!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


WTF are you talking about? You lost me at "All".


Yeah, looked to me that he was calling LEOs, doctors, lawyers, and fry cooks enemies of the American way of life.




Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 3:03:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 3:04:12 PM EST by REDMASTA]
Yes they will be used for operation human shield. Military and armed civilians will handle it after that.
Link Posted: 9/15/2011 3:07:34 PM EST
Didn't the French police help the Nazis enforce laws over their countrymen?

I tend to look for examples from the past to answer theoreticals like this.
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