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Posted: 1/13/2005 6:11:17 AM EDT

video also available on link
www.wnbc.com/news/4075959/detail.html
Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

UPDATED: 7:12 AM EST January 13, 2005

NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless, as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
New Gun Frightens Police  




Scott Weinberger


The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal

It was a very difficult decision for members of law enforcement to go public about the new weapon, but officers fear that once word of the weapon begins to circulate in the wrong circles, they will be in great danger. They agreed to speak to NewsChannel 4, hoping the public will understand what they call the most devastating weapon they face.  

The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading.

"This would be devastating," said Chief Robert Troy, of the Jersey City Police Department.

Troy said he learned about the high-powered pistol from a bulletin issued by Florida Department of Law Enforcement to all of its agents. Troy believes faced with this new weapon, his officers would be at a total disadvantage.

"Dealing with a gun like this -- it's a whole new ballgame," Troy said.

Troy is not the only member of law enforcement to voice concern. As NewsChannel 4 began to contact several more departments in the Tri-State Area, it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest.

"Certainly, handguns are a danger to any police officer on any day, but one that specifically advertised by the company to be capable of defeating a ballistic vest is certainly the utmost concern to us," said Glenn Byrnes, of the Trumball Police Department.

The five-seven is made by FN Herstal, a Belgian company. On its Web site, the company boasts the five-seven's ability to penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar -- the material bulletproof vests are made of -- if you use a five-seven, 28-mm armor-piercing bullet.

However, the company said that bullet is not sold to the public. Instead, gun buyers can purchase what the company calls a training or civilian bullet -- the type loaded into the gun confiscated by Trumball police.

At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest.

The bullets even went through the back panel of the vest, penetrating both layers.

In a similar test, an officer fired a .45-caliber round into the same vest. While the shot clearly knocked it down, it didn't penetrate the vest, and an officer would likely have survived the assault.

"The velocity of this round makes it a more penetrating round -- that's what had me concerned," Scinto said.

FN Herstal told NewsChannel 4 that they dispute the test, stating, "Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to properly test a ballistic vest."

When NewsChannel 4 asked how this could have happened, the spokesperson said: "We [the company] are not experts in ballistic armor."

Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves.

"This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round," Scinto said.

In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.

"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public."
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:12:01 AM EDT
Dupe
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:12:50 AM EDT
worried about how a legal for civillian FN 5.7 can go through a vest?  last I heard a .454 casull will go through one as well and they come in less evil looking "revolver" trim
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:16:28 AM EDT
No,  we're really not.  I'm a lot more concerned about SKS's and AK variants.

The anti's sure have grabbed on to the subject though.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:17:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:

Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun



Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:18:48 AM EDT
I never knew a gun could penetrate a vest.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:20:01 AM EDT
THey will get them all, one, small, chip at a time.  The FN 5.7 here, a saturday night special there.

Slow heat works best.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:23:40 AM EDT
Whatever.

There are lots of guns that will penetrate body armor.  
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:24:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 6:24:55 AM EDT by mgw1181]

In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.

"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public."


My message to Chief Robert Troy:
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:24:43 AM EDT
I'm not worried about any gun.   What I am worried about is a person with evil intent,  that has any weapon including a steak knife.  
I'm also worried that some departments won't allow us to carry the proper tools to face such a threat.    
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:26:25 AM EDT
I think the companies do this on purpose.

I mean, I don't have any want or need to penetrate a vest, but when I see stories like this I WANT this gun.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:27:16 AM EDT
At .50 a round I doubt the local thug will be loading up the 5-7 for a showdown with LE.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:36:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP:
I never knew a gun could penetrate a vest.



Ya gotta throw the gun really really hard. otherwise it'll jsut bounce off.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:46:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:46:33 AM EDT
Hey, isn't illegal to shoot people?


ByteTheBullet  (-:
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:52:12 AM EDT
Honestly I can't see too many criminals dropping the 7-800 bucks for an IOM or USG, much less the cost of the ammo.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:52:53 AM EDT
I guess they don't like the Tokarev either then.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:54:36 AM EDT
Those people are right!  Those 5-7s should be banned!  They is only designed for one purpose:  to kill the cops!!!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to board an airliner now with my ceramic Glock...
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 6:56:51 AM EDT
Sigh....I guess I have to go buy one this weekend.  Damn it.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:16:15 AM EDT
shit, I sure hope they don't find out about the friggin' CZ-52, then.  That will REALLY ruin their day.  Available to the masses at $99 a throw.  
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:27:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 9:30:34 AM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew:
video also available on link
www.wnbc.com/news/4075959/detail.html
Police Worried About New Vest-Penetrating Gun

UPDATED: 7:12 AM EST January 13, 2005

NEW YORK -- There is a nationwide alert to members of law enforcement regarding a new kind of handgun which can render a bulletproof vest useless (It's called, take any gun and use it as a club) , as first reported by NewsChannel 4's Scott Weinberger.
New Gun Frightens Police  




Scott Weinberger


The most shocking fact may be that the gun -- known as the "five-seven" -- is being marketed to the public, and it's completely legal

It was a very difficult decision for members of law enforcement to go public about the new weapon, but officers fear that once word of the weapon begins to circulate in the wrong circles, they will be in great danger. They agreed to speak to NewsChannel 4, hoping the public will understand what they call the most devastating weapon they face.  

The weapon is light, easily concealable and can fire 20 rounds in seconds without reloading.

"This would be devastating," said Chief Robert Troy, of the Jersey City Police Department.

Troy said he learned about the high-powered pistol from a bulletin issued by Florida Department of Law Enforcement to all of its agents. Troy believes faced with this new weapon, his officers would be at a total disadvantage.

"Dealing with a gun like this -- it's a whole new ballgame," Troy said. (What a moron!)

Troy is not the only member of law enforcement to voice concern. As NewsChannel 4 began to contact several more departments in the Tri-State Area, it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest.

"Certainly, handguns are a danger to any police officer on any day, but one that specifically advertised by the company to be capable of defeating a ballistic vest is certainly the utmost concern to us," said Glenn Byrnes, of the Trumball Police Department.

The five-seven is made by FN Herstal, a Belgian company. On its Web site, the company boasts the five-seven's ability to penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar -- the material bulletproof vests are made of -- if you use a five-seven, 28-mm armor-piercing bullet. (WELL NO KIDDING!)

However, the company said that bullet is not sold to the public. Instead, gun buyers can purchase what the company calls a training or civilian bullet -- the type loaded into the gun confiscated by Trumball police.

At a distance of 21 feet, Trumball police Sgt. Lenny Scinto fired the five-seven with the ammo sold legally to the public into a standard police vest. All three penetrated the vest.

The bullets even went through the back panel of the vest, penetrating both layers.

In a similar test, an officer fired a .45-caliber round into the same vest. While the shot clearly knocked it down, it didn't penetrate the vest, and an officer would likely have survived the assault.

"The velocity of this round makes it a more penetrating round -- that's what had me concerned," Scinto said.

FN Herstal told NewsChannel 4 that they dispute the test, stating, "Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to properly test a ballistic vest."

When NewsChannel 4 asked how this could have happened, the spokesperson said: "We [the company] are not experts in ballistic armor."

Back in Trumball, Scinto said his officers would have to rethink how to protect the public and protect themselves.

"This is going to add a whole new dimension to training and tactics. With the penetration of these rounds, you're going to have to find something considerably heavier than we normally use for cover and concealment to stop this round," Scinto said.

In Jersey City, Troy said he will appeal to lawmakers, hoping they will step in before any of his officers are confronted with the five-seven.

"This does not belong in the civilian population. The only thing that comes out of this is profits for the company and dead police officers," Troy said. "I would like the federal government to ban these rounds to the civilian public." (Aren't they already banned?)




So it's the round and not the gun, huh? Who would have figured that?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:30:10 AM EDT
Hopefully they will ban it before I HAVE to gets one...........
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:33:36 AM EDT
What are the statistics? Has the 5.7 even been used in a crime?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:37:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP:
I never knew a gun could penetrate a vest.



Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:37:52 AM EDT
So will an $80 cz52

Which would a criminal most likely have? an $80 gun or $800 or $900?  

The cz's are everywhere, they just don't look as cool.  

Remember any publicity is good publicity.  
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:38:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:40:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RELTOR:
So will an $80 cz52

Which would a criminal most likely have? an $80 gun or $800 or $900?  

The cz's are everywhere, they just don't look as cool.  

Remember any publicity is good publicity.  


Beat me to it.

CZ52! [/vpc]guns are the devil[/vpc]
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:49:52 AM EDT
I wonder what these newsies would say if they discovered that certain people were actually training in how to hit targets on boides that are NOT protected with Kevlar.

GASP!  Shut down gun ranges!
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 9:57:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Hey guys nobody tell them about the Birdman Nuke .50 ok.



Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:06:31 AM EDT
My Grandfather and Uncle were Jersey City Police Officers for 40 and 25 years respectively.

I am ashamed, humiliated and disheartened by this.  The difference that 45 years makes......

My Grandfather BTW was an MP in WW1 (yes ONE) and after that he became a JCP officer.  He became a cop when prohibition was in full swing and he got to drag bodies from the Hudson and deal with bootleggers bringing booze into JC.
He and my uncle (who was a Traffic controller for B-17s at Bassingbourne in England during WW2), served THROUGH the race riots in the 1960's and saw the worst of it.  

They would be slapping the PISS out of these pantywaist motherfucking politicians who pose as police.  It is obvious that these "police" KNOW that they are doing things that will affect law-abiding citizens and they are scared that law-abiding citizens are eventually going to say "NO".  
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:07:55 AM EDT
Oh my God!!! A bullet that will penetrate a vest? It's a good thing they caught on to it in time. Soon nobody will have anything that can go through a bullet-proof vest. Well nobody that doesn't own a decent sized rifle, a pistol larger than .44, a crossbow, a regular bow, an icepick, or a knife.  

A bullet-proof vest is far from really being bullet proof, and even if it could stop anything it still wouldn't protect anyone from shots to the head, neck, arms, legs, and often, the lower torso and groin. Seems anyone determined to kill a police officer these days could do so without shooting through his vest. These people need to wake up and realize that their job is going to be dangerous no matter what kind of guns are legal.

How much does an FN 5.7 cost anyway?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:15:43 AM EDT
So, there goes the .17 Hornady too?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:21:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
No,  we're really not.  I'm a lot more concerned about SKS's and AK variants.

The anti's sure have grabbed on to the subject though.



+1
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:26:21 AM EDT
Cops throughout the ages have had to deal with being shot. Prior to the 60's cops did'nt even have bullet proof vests. So now I guess they are going to have to be cops like their Grandfathers were. Either that or just ban all guns capable of penetrating even 1 layer of Kevlar. It's called the evolution of the arms race. Ever see those old spanish breastplates like Columbus wore? well at one time handguns were not strong enough to penetrate these plates, then they got better muskets and the plates had to be abandoned. Just the way it is.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:42:40 AM EDT
5.7mm?

That isn't big enough to hurt anybody.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 10:43:53 AM EDT
Looks like something to put on the must have list before it is gone.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:29:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Oslow:
5.7mm?

That isn't big enough to hurt anybody.



I saw one of the rounds for the first time last week.

It was freakishly small.  That said, I would not stand down range and try to catch one.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:52:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLewis:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
5.7mm?

That isn't big enough to hurt anybody.



I saw one of the rounds for the first time last week.

It was freakishly small.  That said, I would not stand down range and try to catch one.

TXL



They only leave the weapon going 2000fps

Oh and thats why you have 20 in the factory magazine...
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 11:57:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DDiggler:
I think the companies do this on purpose.

I mean, I don't have any want or need to penetrate a vest, but when I see stories like this I WANT this gun.



+1,000,000

Man, if they keep trying to ban stuff, I will go broke.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:27:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 12:39:48 PM EDT by CeramicGod]
Amen brother.  

Makes it feel like you just need one now, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:32:13 PM EDT
Funny. The list of rounds a protective vest will stop is quite small, yet this ONE round is Public Enemy #!?
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:45:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2005 12:46:22 PM EDT by smokycity]
Most LEO's wear body armor that will stop bullets from their own sidearm, since that is what they are usually killed with.  
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:55:48 PM EDT
I would worry alot more about the M1 Carbine & SKS.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 12:58:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Has the 5.7 even been used in a crime?


It would appear so.

"...it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest."
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 1:02:42 PM EDT
New stuff always catches positive & negative hype. The guy's probably looking to cook it up as the next new hot topic & paint himself as the flavor of the week "authority figure".
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 1:11:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Has the 5.7 even been used in a crime?


It would appear so.

"...it turned out that officers in Trumball, Conn., had seized one of these handguns during a recent arrest."



Yeah, but it wasn't actually *used* in a crime.
Link Posted: 1/13/2005 1:14:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLewis:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
5.7mm?

That isn't big enough to hurt anybody.



I saw one of the rounds for the first time last week.

It was freakishly small.  That said, I would not stand down range and try to catch one.

TXL




You could put an eye out with that thing
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