Read about the trials and tribbulations of a guy who did nothing other sitting in his car:

[url=http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/stein8.html]The US Police State[/url]

Some Excerpts:
---

Here's the exact truth, to the best of my ability to recall it, of my arrest for (and I have to look at the paperwork given to me at the jail when I bonded out, because even now I don't really know), for "concealing one's true name or identity with the intent to obstruct the due execution of the law, or to hinder or interrupt a public officer or other person in a legal performance of his duty or the exercise of his rights under the laws of the United States or of the State of New Mexico," is exactly how the charge reads on the complaint, and for – get this! – the offense of "Idling," which I never heard before now was a crime.

---

Frank turned purple at this and ordered me out of the car. He was so furious that I complied. So we stood there in the parking lot looking at each other. Then he once again demanded my name, and where I lived. I told him that unless I was under arrest for something, I was free to leave whenever I felt like it, and then I said I was leaving and turned away from him towards my open car door.

He said I was not free to leave. And when I turned back to face him, and the other cop who had just joined him, the fresh cop, a younger guy with a big police mag light, shined it through my open door into the interior of the car. I was pretty angry at this point, and I yelled at him to cut it out because he had no reason to search my car.

---

Next I recall repeating that I was leaving unless I was under arrest, and I turned to go. Somehow during this exchange Frank grabbed my shoulder and I shook his hand off. And that was pretty much that – I was up against my car and he put the cuffs on, telling me that I was under arrest. In hindsight I suppose I could have fought him off. He was big, but pretty old and out of shape. But all my public defender clients who resist get a second misdemeanor resisting charge added to their case, so I just let him handcuff me.

Frank roughly – very roughly, out of all proportion to my compliant demeanor – patted me down, and when he felt the cell phone in my breast pocket, I said, "that's a cell phone." I was astonished when he didn't take it. What a stroke of luck! Then he led me to his police cruiser and put me in the back seat. I asked him if he would shut the door of my car and bring me the keys. Frank replied that my car would be towed.

---

So, we have the unconfirmed report of one guy in one town who was (possibly) hassled by one (possibly) idiot cop, and this is somehow proof we live in a police state?
Good Lord...child, you do need to get out more.

Seems like the bad attitude came from the cop.
I didn't know taking a "bad attitude"(ie asserting your rights) with a cop was a crime.  Guess we should fall on our knees and worship cops instead eh?

I just took the time to read that thing.

I'd be pissed off big time,  all you can say is he has an attitude, since when did that become a crime.  I'll go see if I can find that law in the penal code tomorrow at work, LOL.

Yeah he might have been a tool,  but he was also right, and he got fucked for it.  I guess that makes some of you happy.

Just Frickin Amazing.

Charlie

I'm not a cop and definitely not a lawyer, but isn't this considered "plain site"

That's right.  This guy is an idiot.  He's guilty of at least trespass and theft of service.  Probably resisting arrest or obstruction as well.  

Even if you aren't under arrest the police may detain you with reasonable suspicion to ascertain who you are and what you are doing.  This jackass was trespassing on private property so the police already had probable cause to detain and/or arrest him!  

They could have searched his car without his consent if he was near it or in it and they had probable cause anyway.  

If this numbnuts is a lawyer he should be reported to the bar association as incompetent and not fit to practice.  

Actually using someone elses 802.11b connection is in no way illegal. You do not in any way have to show an officer identification unless you are on a road. Setting in a parking lot does no require it. School property is public property and unless posted otherwise, it is not illegal to just sit there. Unless he was violating another law than there was nothing wrong by setting in his car. I really hope he sues the S#!T out of that department. In america we have the right to be A$$holes to cops or anyone else. It's not a good idea but it's not illegal.

It isn't a police state because this one thing happened. It's a police state because ALL the police care about is protecting themselves and maintaining their POWER.

Typical shitbag who thinks he knows the law.....

As everyone else has said YOU HAVE to give your name and address, ssn, dob etc.

Liberty, you absolutely amaze me.  If, after reading that entire diatribe, you think this jackass is an 'innocent victim' of 'police brutality', you are a complete and utter moron.

A few points:  If the neighbors see a car sitting in the middle school parking lot at 1030 at night, they're going to call the cops.  The cops are going to respond to investigate.  Now, schools are not, contrary to popular opinion, public property that you can do what you damn well please with.  They are the property of whatever school district they are part of.  The majority of them have their property posted to clearly indicate that if you are not there for a legitimate school-related purpose, you have no right to be there.  In many states this posting is not even necessary.  Regardless, if you're in the parking lot after hours and you're not there for a school function, you're going to draw official attention, and may very well be arrested for trespassing.

For claiming to be a public defender, this guy is incredibly igorant of search and seizure law and caselaw.  His repeated statement that if you are not actually under arrest you are free to leave is untrue.  There are several levels of  what the courts call a seizure.  Arrest is one level, requiring probable cause that a crime has occurred.  However, if the officers have a reasonable suspicion that you might have committed, be committing or about to commit a crime, they can detain you against your will while they investigate.  In this case they definitely had reasonable suspicion that criminal activity may have been afoot- in fact, I think a pretty good argument can be made that he went there specifically to steal internet access from the school.  Even if the school is unknowingly beaming it out into their lot, it doesn't mean he can access it all he wants for free.

So, given these facts, the officers had every right to detain Mr. Stein, and to insist that he identify himself.  In many states, refusal to identify yourself when officers are conducting an investigation into possible criminal activity on your part could in and of itself be a crime.  And the shining of the flashlight through the window was not an illegal search.  The courts have ruled that an officer shining a flashlight through the window of a car at night is no different than that officer looking through the window in the daytime.  It is not a 'technological enhancement' that requires a search warrant or even probable cause and exigent circumstances.

As far as the officers being heavy-handed and overly aggressive, we have only Mr. Stein's word on this.  None of us were there.  I can tell you though, I've dealt with a number of people like Mr. Stein in my career, and their version of the story when told later (like in court or to the IA sergeant) tends to be just a little one-sided, exaggerated, and self-serving.  He strikes me as one of those folks who doesn't believe the government as the right to tell him to do or not do anything, regardless of the circumstances, and if they try they are violating his rights.  So, when he refuses to obey the officers' lawful orders and they actually have the temerity to INSIST, why it's proof the badge-heavy power-hungry knuckle-dragging mouth breathers were out of control with anger at him for daring to oppose their heavy-handedness.  

To summarize, if you think this article by Mr. Stein is a true and accurate account of what happened, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Liberty, you're going to have to do better than this.  The fact that you trumpet this article as proof of an American police state says a lot about your level of intelligence and/or integrity.  I would strongly suggest you get some actual instruction in 4th amendment caselaw before you start talking shit again.

This wise guy needs a attitude adjustment.  

I think when the President asked us all to help do our part to protect our country and our families from idiots that might want to blow us up, he was talking about creating unnecessary nonsensical crap like this.

He probably was afraid if he let the cops arrest him, they would find hard core porn on the puter, or worse.

10:30 PM sitting alone in a school parking lot, probably not the best place to park if you don't want to draw attention to yourself.

Book em Dano, Stupid One.

Thank you.  I just didn't feel like typing that much.

Well the fact that he was in a car is a good indication that he intends to drive, and the fact that his car is there is a fairly good indication that he drove to get there.  So without knowing the law of that particular state, I'd say it's very likely a legal demand (to produce his license).

The "plain view" issue has been covered, so I'll only add that not only is the guy an ass, but also he gives the impression that he doesn't read newspapers or watch TV or he'd know better.  Actually I think he did know better, and was grasping at straws.

With his kind of judgement (there was something about him being a public defender), I'm sure he's bound to piss off the judge, and if he's as stupid as he seems, he'll ask for a jury aand piss them off, too.

libertyof86, both you and Lew Rockwell need to pick your 'martyrs' a lot more carefully.

I think this Stein guy is a squirrel.  I wonder where he went to law school and where in his class he ranked.

New Mexico perps:  Here's your dream team defense.

This Russ Stien is just a dumbass plain an simple. I've always been a yes sir/no sir man myself, if anybody's gonna do the screwin up it's gonna be them as far as i'm concerned. Now my brother in law is a good example of gettin it handed to ya. He went to Kroger to get a pack of smokes and on his way through the parking lot he met a friend who had just left Kroger and was headed for his car. They didn't much more than stop an say "hey how ya doin" when a city cop pulled up, demanded to see thier id's and gave em a ticket for loitering. All because Kroger had complained about kids parking in "big groups" and creating a hassle in the parking lot. He got out of it but it cost $65 in court costs and the aggravation of lining it all out.

Bravo, Bonehead!! I don't even know what to say to this stupid shit. I have to remember to avoid Liberty's posts from now on, the odds of our agreement appears slim from my experience with him. And his brilliance really pisses me off.

HUH?

I am taking it Kroger is a convienience store; so after being a customer they charged him with loitering?  Strange, very strange..... the story shouldn't end there.

Kroger's a pretty big grocery chain in the mideast. Now Mike(brother in law) said the hell with Kroger and didn't go in and to my knowledge hasn't went back. I dont know the other guys story. This all took place in a plaza with Wal-Mart located on the other end and i don't think they ever complained about the kids. Probably glad to have them around after the two abduction and rapes that occured in their parking lot a few years back. Anyway our city cops are a bit overzealous in comparison to the county an state.

YOUR NAME= What your mother/sister(probably the same person) gave you.

YOUR ADDRESS= Where you keep your goats.

YOUR S.S.N.= SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.

YOUR D.O.B.= Date your mother/sister gave birth to you.

Any more questions?

In spite of the insulting nature of your reply, the assertion that you always have to give your name, etc. is incorrect.  The only time you are required to present anything is if you're driving on public roads.  The cops may well detain you until they can identify you, but you are not [i]required[/i] to give your name or any other personal ID.  That said, I can envision many situations where it's a good idea to identify myself, but it's still not a requirement.  At least, not in this country.

The dickhead that wrote the article sounds like a really big dickhead.  Trespassing, theft of services & just being an ass.  I hope the judge hands him his head.

Actually, libertyof76 gets a ride to school from his mom, so the whole issue is moot.

Regardless of the law, from what I read, the cop was in the wrong. If the law bans guns, that law is null and void. If I don't agree with a law, I don't follow it.

This shouldn't happen in America. Unless he was tresspassing on private property(which the parking lot of the school. it might be illegal to sit there, but that should be posted), or was causing actually or potential harm to another person, the cop had no cause to arrest him. Since he wasn't doing anything wrong(remember, the cop didn't know about the so-called "hacking" of the wireless line), the cop was wrong. Nobody will admit that here though. People always assume the cop is right. And I love the comment tying the war on terrorism to this. So if they come and confiscate our guns, we should go along because Bush said so? Anyway, Some of us don't like him anyway, so we won't listen to him, regardless of what unconstititutional and undeclared war we are in.

Sorry if I don't like cops, but they do heavy handed things sometimes, without regards to common sense. Its probably because the deal with the dregs of society all the time, so they start to assume that anybody that looks suspicious is a criminal. They need to not assume things.

And Cinn- you don't know what you are talking about.
[img]http://home.supernet.com/~libertyof76/pictures/carpic.jpg[/img]
That's my car I drive to college with. But believe what you want.

And this, apparently, is you:

[img]http://home.supernet.com/~libertyof76/pictures/mepicture.jpg[/img]


[img]http://home.supernet.com/~libertyof76/pictures/[email protected][/img]


And here's your automotive brain dump:

[img]http://home.supernet.com/~libertyof76/pictures/carpic.jpg[/img]


I love it when all you think can be summed up on several bumper stickers.



From here:
[url]http://home.supernet.com/~libertyof76/[/url]

I have asked you this before, libby, who would you rather have as president (Gore?) and what would you do about September 11?  Never mind your worn out whining about our foreign policy, given that what happened on September 11 did happen, what would you have us do about it?  Run and hide?  Pull all our troops home and say "oh, please don't attack us again"?  These questions have been asked of you before and you never answer.  You would be right at home at {url]www.democraticunderground.com[/url].

Oh, man.
I couldn't have dreamed of a better response.

You've gotta be kidding with those pictures!!
Boy, I bet you're hit with all the ladies, huh?

Didn't you have a rant a few months back about how you "don't tolerate pre-marital sex"?

Which came first Matthew, your anti-premarital-sex philosophy, or your complete inability to get laid?

What a nerdy little fellow.

Geez,

To think it's guys like libby that some of us protect and serve or go overseas and fight for.  [rolleyes]

Get a clue libby.  All LE isn't out to "get you".   And those of us in the military aren't flying around in black helicopters supressing your rights while secretly training UN troops to come take your guns, ship you off to our secret gun-owner concentration camps, and take over the USA.  ...but then again, maybe we [i]are[/i].

As for the jackass in the supposed story, he's probably lucky to just be called an asshole.  If he acted that like in Texas, he'd be called "upgraded from critical to serious".

-SARguy

Thank you for playing, maybe you'll do better next time.

SSN can not be demanded FYI

If you are just minding your own business and the police contact you, and they don't have a reason to believe that you are committing a crime you do not have to give your name.

If the police contact you and think something criminal is happening, they may detain you and investigate you. If they do not have probable cause to believe you committed a crime, and you answer questions that lead them to believe that no crime has been committed, or remain silent they can not compel you to ID yourself.

If the police have PC to believe a crime was committed and you did it, you must ID yourself.

If at any point you decide to identify yourself, to the police, with a name that is not your's, that is a crime whether or not the police had a reason to compel you to ID yourself.

In my opinion the author sounds like an arrogant little punk who's lucky he didn't get a Mag-Lite upside his head.  If he let go of his hard on long enough to cooperate he probably would've just been told to go home but no, he had to be an ass.  Typical whiny liberal who thinks they're God's gift to the free world, I love it when they get caught in the cesspool those of his ilk helped to create.  He got exactly what he deserved.

I'd bet that the probability his whole story has been made up to be around 90%.

Any of you willing to take that bet?

When you can't argue the facts, attack the person. Great strategy.

Some of the responses on here prove my point: cops only care about power. Mag light upside the head? For what? Anybody that doesn't submit to the police should be beaten and "upgraded from serious to critical"? This is who is supposed to protect and serve me?

SARguy: I don't want anybody to go over seas and defend me. Wait they don't. They go over seas to intervene in soveriegn countries. As for the conspiracy theories you mentioned, I never said anything like that. And cops may not be out to get me, but they seem to want to beat me if they find me.

LARRYG, I've answered your questions numerous times, yet you fail to see them. I'll answer them again, since you seem to forget them:
Who would I prefer as President? Ron Paul of Texas.
What should we have done about 9/11? Bring the troops home. Find out who helped the highjackers(if anybody), arrest the them(if that requires using SF to go into other countries and get them, so be it), prosecute them, and execute them. If need be, we can also give letters of marque and reprisal to hunt down other terrorists. This is all Constitutional BTW, unlike our current conflict(NOT war).

We don't know if those ARE the facts.  We only have his word for it.

Its shit like this that makes me hate cops.

That does it you little sh!tbird!  Did you see the planes hit the towers? WELL I FREAKING DID!  

You better appreciate that we have MEN who are willing to risk their lives to keep the tangos at bay.  They do it [b]in spite[/b] of your silly little whining, uneducated and nihlistic attitude.  

Nice to know you have such a high regard for those of us who are sworn to defend this country.  Son, it's time for you to act like a man and step up and get out here with us.  Your country has been attacked.  We (those of us who are in the military) are not "intervening", we're killing those who would kill us.  This nation.  America.  

But my guess is you'll continue to hide behind your silly bullsh!t.  You'll just live in your rambo fantasy world where you and your shiny high-speed assault vest hold off hordes of cops, UN troops and SF operators with your trusty AR-15.

Cowards hide behind that "intervening in soveriegn nations" crap.  Men take the battle to those who attack us.  So, which are you?

-SARguy

Sure, why not.  All a person has is their credibility.  You do mean this guy, don't you?

[img]http://savagehatchet.com/duruzz.jpg[/img]



With this resume?



He can't even spell the name of the State he works for... [rolleyes]



With this website?

[url]http://savagehatchet.com/[/url]

Heh, he's more like a philosophical arsonist.

I think libby can fight his own battles.  I would say you should not go for the personal attacks--it really undercuts your credibility.

As far as this whole "we are at war" and "America has been attacked" line of reasoning, I can only say that my low regard for the people who defend this country is completely justified by the mindless sort of loyalty that all so-called "patriots" have for the military industrial war machine.  Whatever justification started this "war" one has to admit that the original goals seem to have been conveniently derailed in favor of yet more globalist, power-mongering, moneyed interest manipulation.  The lies have gotten embarrasingly obvious, frankly.  

Do you honestly think this war is really to stop terrorism at this point?  Come on!  

As far as the moral argument that "my country" has been attacked, all I can say is, this isn't "my country" and hasn't been for quite a long time.  I pay nearly half my income in taxes and have no functioning representation in "my government".  As far as I'm concerned, it was New York, in all its decandent, decaying socialist splendor that was attacked more than anything else.  I used to live there and I can tell you--if the whole city gets nuked at some point, the big loss will be to capitalism, not to the gene pool.  Personally, I'd rather see them bust up DC where a comeuppance is so richly deserved.

As far as Rambo fantasies go, get real.  Cops and soldiers have the biggest Rambo fantasies going.  Cops love their little black costumes and balaclavas and "tactical" whatever gear.

I'm far more concerned with federal thugs or some overzealous cops assaulting me than I am with the entire al Qaeda terror network.  Fuck those towel-headed zealot fools, they are no threat to anyone but the totally disarmed, governmentally dependent minions who dwell (notice I didn't say thrive) in our decrepit cities.

Before you go overseas to fight and die for "America" I suggest you go spend some time in Philadelphia.  Go see the sickening, rotting decay that is America's dirty little secret.  Then decide if the system you are fighting to sustain is worth it or not.

Or this little "commentary" Russ Stein provided about our men in Afghanistan.

[url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/stein6.html[/url]

Not targeting Libby specifically,  but it's a truism in police work that when the number of bumper stickers goes up,(regardless of subject) the intelligence and mental stability levels go down.  Just not bumper stickers either. I have a guy in my patrol area that has dozens of little plastic dinosaurs glued to a 74 Plymouth Valiant. BTW: In Texas schools are not open public property such as a park.  Being on school grounds and not part of a school function is Trespass.

The courts have decided that the intrusion of having to ID yourself is minor & justified when a person is loitering about for no apparent reason.

Scenarios;  

A car load of youths is parked infront of your home with no apparent legal purpose.

A man has been loitering outside your wifes place of business at closing time.

A man has been sitting in his car watching the children play at your kids school.

None of these people have commited any crime, but their activities are unusual enough to justify a Field Interview, including verifying their identification.