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Posted: 1/28/2006 10:16:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:23:51 AM EDT by mcantu]
Police shoot off-duty NYPD officer holding gun
Hit three times, Eric Hernandez, 25, listed in extremely critical condition

NEW YORK - In a tragic case of mistaken identity, police shot and critically wounded an off-duty officer as he pointed a gun at a suspect outside a fast food restaurant early Saturday, authorities said.

Eric Hernandez, 25, was hit three times and was hospitalized in extremely critical condition, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

The officer who pulled the trigger, identified only as a 20-year veteran of the force, was being treated for trauma at another hospital.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

Hernandez had been in line at a White Castle restaurant in the Bronx shortly before 5 a.m. when he was assaulted by a half-dozen men, Bloomberg said. It wasn’t immediately clear what sparked the fight, but it was captured on the restaurant’s security camera.

A White Castle employee called 911, and Hernandez—with his gun drawn—ran into the parking lot after his assailants, Bloomberg said.

He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground.

One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.

Hernandez, who joined the force last year, never fired his weapon, authorities said. He was shot in each leg and the abdomen and lost a lot of blood, Bloomberg said.

Kelly said officials were questioning eight individuals about the shooting, including the six who fought with Hernandez inside the White Castle.

It was believed to be the NYPD’s first friendly fire shooting since Desmond Robinson, who wasn’t in uniform, was shot in the back by an off-duty officer in 1994. Robinson had his gun drawn on a subway platform, and the officer mistook him for a criminal.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:23:21 AM EDT
Considering the size of the NYPD, I'd say the first friendly-fire incident since 1994 is pretty damn good. Tragic, no doubt, but still a pretty damn good record.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:24:27 AM EDT
That sucks.

Max
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:24:30 AM EDT
This is where the "everyone with a gun is a badguy" mentality gets you.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:26:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
This is where the "everyone with a gun is a badguy" mentality gets you.



yep
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:29:07 AM EDT
I wonder if Hernandez dies, whether or not the guys who assaulted Hernandez will be tried for capital murder.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:31:17 AM EDT
It happens, a lot.

Off duty cops have to remember that the witnessess might not be able to tell which side you are on and will call 911 and report a man with a gun.

If at all possible you need to get on your cell phone ASAP and call 911. Identifiy yourself, your agency, the hnature of the call and what you are wearing.

"This is officer XXX with the XXX XX Police department. i'm off duty and am holding a Bank robber at gun point. I'm a 25 yeare old male hispanic wearing blue jeans and a grey sweatshirt. The suspect is a white male with long greying hair wearing BDU pants and a flannel shirt."

When the on duty cops arrive. put your gun down!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:35:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
It happens, a lot.

Off duty cops have to remember that the witnessess might not be able to tell which side you are on and will call 911 and report a man with a gun.

If at all possible you need to get on your cell phone ASAP and call 911. Identifiy yourself, your agency, the hnature of the call and what you are wearing.

"This is officer XXX with the XXX XX Police department. i'm off duty and am holding a Bank robber at gun point. I'm a 25 yeare old male hispanic wearing blue jeans and a grey sweatshirt. The suspect is a white male with long greying hair wearing BDU pants and a flannel shirt."

When the on duty cops arrive. put your gun down!



Have your badge out and in plain view and scream that you are a off duty officer if you have to. In NYC you had better know your daily colors too.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:37:54 AM EDT
Sad news
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:40:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZW17:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
It happens, a lot.

Off duty cops have to remember that the witnessess might not be able to tell which side you are on and will call 911 and report a man with a gun.

If at all possible you need to get on your cell phone ASAP and call 911. Identifiy yourself, your agency, the hnature of the call and what you are wearing.

"This is officer XXX with the XXX XX Police department. i'm off duty and am holding a Bank robber at gun point. I'm a 25 yeare old male hispanic wearing blue jeans and a grey sweatshirt. The suspect is a white male with long greying hair wearing BDU pants and a flannel shirt."

When the on duty cops arrive. put your gun down!



Have your badge out and in plain view and scream that you are a off duty officer if you have to. In NYC you had better know your daily colors too.



You had better have the weapon down and comply with an order to drop it if given.
When I went through the academy we had a shoot/don't shoot simulater. They had plainclothes cops in the movie. They proved to us that even having a badge out didn't always help, and that a badge worn on the outside of the belt was overlooked almost everytime.

I hope the officer pulls through.

Jim
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:44:30 AM EDT
I wonder if there was a warning of, "DROP THE GUN, DROP THE GUN"????

Wait and see till the whole story comes out, I guess.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:48:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
This is where the "everyone with a gun is a badguy" mentality gets you.



Never thought of it like that.
A valid lesson, I suppose.

Let's hope the officer pulls through, and that the officer who pulled the trigger ends up without any long term issues.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:50:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:51:20 AM EDT by npd233]

Originally Posted By Yossarian:
I wonder if there was a warning of, "DROP THE GUN, DROP THE GUN"????

Wait and see till the whole story comes out, I guess.



It wouldn't matter if there was or not.

It's incumbent upon any plainclothed officer to know that arriving police officers seeing someone pointing a gun at someone else have all the reason they need to fire at him to stop the threat. He should have reholstered upon seeing them arrive, had his badge out, hands up, or have notified dispatch of his identity and involvement and clothing description.

If someone is pointing a gun at one of your loved ones, and the police officers pull up on the scene, do you want them to start warning the guy first, or take immediate action to stop the threat?

I'm sure that 20 year veteran who fired the shot feels horrible, but he did exactly as he should have done, based on the same training officers have had for years.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:57:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:57:37 AM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By Yossarian:
I wonder if there was a warning of, "DROP THE GUN, DROP THE GUN"????

Wait and see till the whole story comes out, I guess.



It wouldn't matter if there was or not.

It's incumbent upon any plainclothed officer to know that arriving police officers seeing someone pointing a gun at someone else have all the reason they need to fire at him to stop the threat. He should have reholstered upon seeing them arrive, had his badge out, hands up, or have notified dispatch of his identity and involvement and clothing description.

If someone is pointing a gun at one of your loved ones, and the police officers pull up on the scene, do you want them to start warning the guy first, or take immediate action to stop the threat?

I'm sure that 20 year veteran who fired the shot feels horrible, but he did exactly as he should have done, based on the same training officers have had for years.



+1
In the story it states "He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground."
If I was to pull up to a parking lot where I had just recieved a 911 call from, and I saw Guy A standing over Guy B with a gun, I'd open fire too.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:09:54 AM EDT
Sounds like the off duty cop didnt know that the store had called 911 and that maybe the arriving officers didnt give him a chance to identify himself or lower his weapon
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:21:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:30:41 AM EDT
Tag.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:37:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:

Originally Posted By Yossarian:
I wonder if there was a warning of, "DROP THE GUN, DROP THE GUN"????

Wait and see till the whole story comes out, I guess.



It wouldn't matter if there was or not.

It's incumbent upon any plainclothed officer to know that arriving police officers seeing someone pointing a gun at someone else have all the reason they need to fire at him to stop the threat. He should have reholstered upon seeing them arrive, had his badge out, hands up, or have notified dispatch of his identity and involvement and clothing description.

If someone is pointing a gun at one of your loved ones, and the police officers pull up on the scene, do you want them to start warning the guy first, or take immediate action to stop the threat?

I'm sure that 20 year veteran who fired the shot feels horrible, but he did exactly as he should have done, based on the same training officers have had for years.



I'm sure he does feel horrible since he went to the hospital for trauma. I bet the moment he found out who he had shot he fell apart. Sad deal all around.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:15:25 PM EDT
this is typical of the reactionary instincts that the politically correctness and fear influences of our day have conditioned law enforcement with...they no longer think...they no longer know their targets, they no longer respond with decisive forethought made from rational decision making...they react to emotion and fear...
so they shoot each other, they shoot kids and they shoot people with wallets in their hand...
cops are so paranoid now days they see threats everywhere when there are no threats.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:29:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnrj:
this is typical of the reactionary instincts that the politically correctness and fear influences of our day have conditioned law enforcement with...they no longer think...they no longer know their targets, they no longer respond with decisive forethought made from rational decision making...they react to emotion and fear...
so they shoot each other, they shoot kids and they shoot people with wallets in their hand...
cops are so paranoid now days they see threats everywhere when there are no threats.



Yes,, you can tell by looking at someone what their intentions are.

If you, or one of your family memebers was on the ground, with a person standing over them with a gun pointed at them as the police arrive. Would you want the police to take action to stop that threat, or stand there as you/or your loved is shot by the suspect?

Fine line between being trigger happy, and letting a BG kill someone while the cops stand around, in scenarios like this.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:34:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yossarian:
I wonder if there was a warning of, "DROP THE GUN, DROP THE GUN"????

Wait and see till the whole story comes out, I guess.


Sounds like he got out of his car and started firing
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:46:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnrj:
this is typical of the reactionary instincts that the politically correctness and fear influences of our day have conditioned law enforcement with...they no longer think...they no longer know their targets, they no longer respond with decisive forethought made from rational decision making...they react to emotion and fear...
so they shoot each other, they shoot kids and they shoot people with wallets in their hand...
cops are so paranoid now days they see threats everywhere when there are no threats.


Yup, from the "Kill them all and let God sort it out' school of police training.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:55:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:02:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:07:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By johnrj:
this is typical of the reactionary instincts that the politically correctness and fear influences of our day have conditioned law enforcement with...they no longer think...they no longer know their targets, they no longer respond with decisive forethought made from rational decision making...they react to emotion and fear...
so they shoot each other, they shoot kids and they shoot people with wallets in their hand...
cops are so paranoid now days they see threats everywhere when there are no threats.



Nice generalizations there johnrj. I can only assume that you don't know either of the officers involved. If you do, or if you have some other information none of us are privy to, please feel free to enlighten us. Otherwise, it looks to me like the on-duty officer acted with plenty of decisive forethought based in rational decision making. If I was on the ground and someone had a gun pointed at me and the cops showed up, I'd want them to recognize that my life was in very real and imminent danger. I'd want them to take whatever immediate action was necessary to protect me.

Different circumstances, but same principle applies....Columbine. Officers there stayed behind cover, wanted to negotiate, waited for better resources, etc. I bet you bitched about that too, didn't you?

This NYPD officer acted decisively and now you want to second guess him. I wasn't there, don't know anyone involved, but I can tell you this. If I'm holding someone at gunpoint, I'm going to be very aware of my surroundings. At the first sign of a police car or officer, I'm dropping the gun and going face first to the ground. At first glance, fault here does not lie with the responding officer, it lies with the off-duty cop.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:11:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
It happens, a lot.
Off duty cops have to remember that the witnessess homeowner might not be able to tell which side you are on and will call 911 and report a man with a gun.




Homeowner shoots cop
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:28:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 1:33:24 PM EDT by One_Slayer]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
This is where the "everyone with a gun is a badguy" mentality gets you.



Never thought of it like that.
A valid lesson, I suppose.

Let's hope the officer pulls through, and that the officer who pulled the trigger ends up without any long term issues.


+1 The off-duty cop probably had tunnel vision from the fight and at 6 to 1 odds no time to call 911 himself...I guess I can learn to watch my 6. I hope everybody comes out of this alright.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:34:09 PM EDT
Nothing like more than a cop shot thread.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:34:16 PM EDT
They knew he was a cop, that why he was shot only 3 times.



...now if he was holding a wallet they would have really let him have it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:55:59 PM EDT
I hope the dude shot pulls threw and can have a semi-normal life. Everyone forgets in a situation everything does not always go like protocall. I wonder if the call was shots fired? "cause if it ain't sounds like someone got zealous.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:05:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JCHammer:
I hope the dude shot pulls threw and can have a semi-normal life. Everyone forgets in a situation everything does not always go like protocall. I wonder if the call was shots fired? "cause if it ain't sounds like someone got zealous.



The officer who did the shooting was right to do so, from the sound of it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:16:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 2:18:25 PM EDT by fla556guy]
I'm sorry, but if the on-duty cop never issued any commands, and just opened fire...wow. He may have been in the right to shoot, but if he had approached the off-duty cop with gun drawn, and ordered off-duty to drop gun, then maybe it would have been different. Not enough minute details to really be sure.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:25:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:41:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
I'm sorry, but if the on-duty cop never issued any commands, and just opened fire...wow. He may have been in the right to shoot, but if he had approached the off-duty cop with gun drawn, and ordered off-duty to drop gun, then maybe it would have been different. Not enough minute details to really be sure.



Do you give commands before engaging an active shooter?

I wonder how many people posting the officer screwed up, would be posting the exact same thing, of the person with the gun turned out to be a "perp" and reacted to the officer's challenge by firing 3 rounds into the person on the ground? I bet everyone would say in that event the officer should have fired immediately.

There's a razor thin margin in a scenario like that between being "trigger happy" and "failing to act".
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:37:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
I'm sorry, but if the on-duty cop never issued any commands, and just opened fire...wow. He may have been in the right to shoot, but if he had approached the off-duty cop with gun drawn, and ordered off-duty to drop gun, then maybe it would have been different. Not enough minute details to really be sure.



Do you give commands before engaging an active shooter?

I wonder how many people posting the officer screwed up, would be posting the exact same thing, of the person with the gun turned out to be a "perp" and reacted to the officer's challenge by firing 3 rounds into the person on the ground? I bet everyone would say in that event the officer should have fired immediately.

There's a razor thin margin in a scenario like that between being "trigger happy" and "failing to act".



Thank you Oly, that is exactly what I was thinking!

Gentleman, when you carry a gun, either for work or just to protect yourself, you assume a certain set of responsibilities. You must be ready to make the hard choices, the ones that have no right answers. If you wait to shoot until you see muzzle flashes, you will probably die where you stand. Sometimes shit happens, and people have to put it in their past. Just because it turned out that it was an off-duty cop this time, doesn't mean that the next time an officer rolls up to an identical scene it won't be a suicidal man hell bent on having company in the morgue. The officer acted in a manner that he thought would protect a person from a madman with a gun, and with the information that we can surmise was available to him at the time, his actions seem proper and justified.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 4:46:25 PM EDT
Ban guns from cops and this crap would not happen. What say you, Bloomburg?

If he pulled up and immediately started firing without any idea of the situation, and without knowing the status of the perps he might have been right, but he was dead wrong. Hope the shootee is OK and the shooter learns a lesson.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:52:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 8:53:31 PM EDT by verticalgain]

Originally Posted By npd233:

If someone is pointing a gun at one of your loved ones, and you pull your gun and get him to lie down on the ground,and the police officers pull up on the scene, do you want them to start warning the guy you first, or take immediate action to stop the threat?


Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:59:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By verticalgain:

Originally Posted By npd233:

If someone is pointing a gun at one of your loved ones, and you pull your gun and get him to lie down on the ground,and the police officers pull up on the scene, do you want them to start warning the guy you first, or take immediate action to stop the threat?





If your loved one is pointing a gun at a perp on the ground do you want the cops rolling up to waste your loved one when they have no idea what is going on? It goes both ways. If the shooter was not firing I would probably take a sec to order the person to disarm and go prone. If they refused, well, then do what you have to do. If they obey then some cop might not be shot.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:21:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:


If your loved one is pointing a gun at a perp on the ground do you want the cops rolling up to waste your loved one when they have no idea what is going on? It goes both ways. If the shooter was not firing I would probably take a sec to order the person to disarm and go prone. If they refused, well, then do what you have to do. If they obey then some cop might not be shot.



That's what I'm getting at. This was not an "active shooter", according to the story he never fired his gun. I feel like it's reckless for a police officer to have a "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:23:32 PM EDT
What sucks is that police automatically assume the one holding the gun is the bad guy and will shoot you without hesitation. police are not a friend of law abiding citizens, theyre only there to save criminals from us good doers.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
This is where the "everyone with a gun is a badguy" mentality gets you.




That pretty much sums it up.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:40:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:
What sucks is that police automatically assume the one holding the gun is the bad guy and will shoot you without hesitation. police are not a friend of law abiding citizens, theyre only there to save criminals from us good doers.




What utter crap
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:01:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:03:33 PM EDT by AR15fan]
I can empty the gun before you can say "drop the gun" and assess if i have complied with the command.

Simunitions training is great for showing people how action not only beats reaction, it owns it! My wife, who doesnt even practise regularly, routinely "kills" experianced street cops in simunitions training when they give her stupid commands like "drop the gun" or "show me your hands" when they should be pulling the trigger.

We give verbal commants for edged weapons and impact weapons if the range is far enough. No verbal warnings for armed suspects.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:08:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I can empty the gun before you can say "drop the gun" and assess if i have complied with the command.

Simunitions training is great for showing people how action not only beats reaction, it owns it! My wife, who doesnt even practise regularly, routinely "kills" experianced street cops in simunitions training when they give her stupid commands like "drop the gun" or "show me your hands" when they should be pulling the trigger.

We give verbal commants for edged weapons and impact weapons if the range is far enough. No verbal warnings for armed suspects.



So if you come across a person who is using a lawfully carried weapon to defend himself, he automatically gets shot without any verbal commands being given?
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:12:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I can empty the gun before you can say "drop the gun" and assess if i have complied with the command.

Simunitions training is great for showing people how action not only beats reaction, it owns it! My wife, who doesnt even practise regularly, routinely "kills" experianced street cops in simunitions training when they give her stupid commands like "drop the gun" or "show me your hands" when they should be pulling the trigger.

We give verbal commants for edged weapons and impact weapons if the range is far enough. No verbal warnings for armed suspects.



So if you come across a person who is using a lawfully carried weapon to defend himself, he automatically gets shot without any verbal commands being given?



The way to prevent that is you dont draw your weapon to warn or threaten, you only draw when you are justified in shooting, then you reholster after you shoot the SOB. No CCW holder should be detaining anyone at gunpoint. If you dont have cause to shoot keep it in the holster.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:15:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:21:02 PM EDT by fxntime]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I can empty the gun before you can say "drop the gun" and assess if i have complied with the command.

Simunitions training is great for showing people how action not only beats reaction, it owns it! My wife, who doesnt even practise regularly, routinely "kills" experianced street cops in simunitions training when they give her stupid commands like "drop the gun" or "show me your hands" when they should be pulling the trigger.

We give verbal commants for edged weapons and impact weapons if the range is far enough. No verbal warnings for armed suspects.



If you are so damn stupid as to drive right up to an armed suspect, get out, stand in the open and give orders, you DESERVE to get shot. If one actually uses a bit of tactical advantage a vehicle will give you, stay back and use it properly then you would have time to give orders to a man standing in an open parking lot. Remember, you should have your weapon drawn, and be ready to fire if he swings it in your direction. There will not be a lot of reaction time problems, especially with better cover and hopefully with your longarm if you were thinking ahead.

So if I come to my door at 3AM with a gun cause someone is banging on it who turns out to be a cop it's OK if he shoots me because I have a gun? What world do some of you live in?

And in the end, he wasen't a suspect was he? He was one of their own they shot down because A. they are reckless with guns and they should be disarmed just like every one else. or 2. They should have done a better job at assessing the situation.

I'm sorry the cop got shot, I hope the shooter feels like s--t and learns something out of it. It did not have to end that way.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:22:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I can empty the gun before you can say "drop the gun" and assess if i have complied with the command.

Simunitions training is great for showing people how action not only beats reaction, it owns it! My wife, who doesnt even practise regularly, routinely "kills" experianced street cops in simunitions training when they give her stupid commands like "drop the gun" or "show me your hands" when they should be pulling the trigger.

We give verbal commants for edged weapons and impact weapons if the range is far enough. No verbal warnings for armed suspects.



So if you come across a person who is using a lawfully carried weapon to defend himself, he automatically gets shot without any verbal commands being given?



The way to prevent that is you dont draw your weapon to warn or threaten, you only draw when you are justified in shooting, then you reholster after you shoot the SOB. No CCW holder should be detaining anyone at gunpoint. If you dont have cause to shoot keep it in the holster.



^ and that is precisely why i would have to SSS.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:35:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:
What sucks is that police automatically assume the one holding the gun is the bad guy and will shoot you without hesitation. police are not a friend of law abiding citizens, theyre only there to save criminals from us good doers.



Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:38:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:39:31 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
I can empty the gun before you can say "drop the gun" and assess if i have complied with the command.

Simunitions training is great for showing people how action not only beats reaction, it owns it! My wife, who doesnt even practise regularly, routinely "kills" experianced street cops in simunitions training when they give her stupid commands like "drop the gun" or "show me your hands" when they should be pulling the trigger.

We give verbal commants for edged weapons and impact weapons if the range is far enough. No verbal warnings for armed suspects.



So if you come across a person who is using a lawfully carried weapon to defend himself, he automatically gets shot without any verbal commands being given?



The way to prevent that is you dont draw your weapon to warn or threaten, you only draw when you are justified in shooting, then you reholster after you shoot the SOB. No CCW holder should be detaining anyone at gunpoint. If you dont have cause to shoot keep it in the holster.



Question: Does that same logic also apply to the off duty police officer mentioned in this thread?
He is off duty, but he is also a cop. Some punks and him got into a fight, and he held them at gunpoint.
According to you (and I agree FWIW) a CCW holder should not be holding people at gunpoint.
If you are going to draw, you had better be prepared to shoot.

When he is off duty and carrying, is he like a CCW holder, or like a cop, in regard to his duties?
Serious question here, I can't make up my mind.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:40:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yossarian:
I wonder if there was a warning of, "DROP THE GUN, DROP THE GUN"????

Wait and see till the whole story comes out, I guess.





One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:50:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBang:

Originally Posted By david_g17:
This is where the "everyone with a gun is a badguy" mentality gets you.



yep



+1

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